World Ultimate Carnage

[Rabid_Rust]

I didn't want to post this in the Ultimate Spider-Man thread, cause I didn't want to bring it off topic.

Anyways, I'm a fan of 616 carnage, and was kinda dissapointed with his ultimate treatment. I was ok with him being a life sucking vampire, but... i dunno, I don't think they did him justice with him being a clone of peter, Who was quickly killed off. And there was also no ultimate cletus. Kinda dissapointing, but i'll live.
Anyways. As we saw in the USM video game, the carnage..... I want to say symbiote, but... i dunno. I guess I should say "A Carnage-Suit". Well, the Carnage Suit can bond with a person.

So, am I the only one who wants to see a more permanent ultimate carnage? Maybe trask industries or whatever would want their own "suit". The make the carnage one with a sample of peters DNA (sold to them by ben riely maybe?) and create carnage. It bonds with an ultimate rendition of cletus.

Hm. I just had a good idea for the clone saga to, maybe after carnage starts reaking havoc, ben realizes that he unleased an evil upon the world by selling the DNA to trasks, and somehow gives himself spider powers. He then sets himself up as another spiderman, and battles carnage. It'd be kinda like Peter has his venom, ben would have his carnage. I dunno. I thought it was a good idea.

 

[MC2Spiderman]

sorry to go off topic what does 616 mean ?, also have any images on this ben reilly from the ultimate spiderman universe i havnt kept up much with line of comics any site would help aswell

 

[Rez]

He's chubby and black. 616 is the number of the primary Marvel Universe(Ie the one we've had the majority of comics about... other universes would be other numbers, like 615, 617, etc... some of the bigger ones would be Ultimate, 2099, MC2, etc), I believe catogorized by the Watchers.

Ultimate Carnage wasn't so much Ultimate Carnage as it was the Ultimate version of the original clone saga.

I do hope for the carnage symbiote to meet up with Ultimate Cletus in some way eventually.
I hope the real Ben Reilly(As in the short, fat, black one) does not become Spiderman in any way, shape, or form, but rather grows another clone and simply tells it his name is Ben Reilly.
I also hope that this new Spiderclone- whether he turns out good or evil- dons some form of the Scarlet Spider outfit.

Kaine would be nice, but I doubt we'll see him. Of course, I also doubt we'll see a Scarlet Spider costume, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to be pissed as all hell if that turns out to be the case.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

What amazes me is with th' frequency of times it's used and th' number of people registered here there are still those who dunno what 616 means.

 

[Infinity9999x]

the ult. carnage arc was alright, but it pissed me off. They killed off Gwen for no better reason then shock value. I mean, at least keep her around for a little while, then if anyone should kill her, it should be Norman.

 

[Citizen_Kaine]

I kinda like Black Reilly, I have a feeling he's gonna be a major player in the Ultimate Spider Man world very very soon, the guy's true motives and sinister behind the scene final panel in USM 64 caused me to have at least a mild tolerance towards Ultimate Garbage

 

[The Comedian]

I really dislike how they killed Gwen, it semed really too soon into the book. And Not having been a lover to Peter I think her death will have less of an impact on him in the long run than in 616. I know they were trying to give na angle like she was his "adopted sister", but I still disagree.

Now I don't mind how they've changed Carnage for USM. I know some people love the 616 Carnage but I always thought he was kind of a weak character overall. Like they didn't want the work to make him a motivated villain so they just stuck the Symbiote on a serial killer so they would have no motivation to explain, He's just psychotic.

And the whole point of the ultimate universe was to learn from mistakes of the past, and retell stories in a new interesting way. Some people get upset for changingn around some character's origins but I say to these people, If you don't want it to be any different, why don't you just read your 616 back issues instead? It's pointless to create a new continuity where nothing changes.

I wish they put out a book to explain and integrate the plot from the USM game, into the comics. I know the game was supposed to be pretty much canonical but There's been a few discrepencies, so they should put out a special book for those who didn't play the game and to retconn these errors. Because I understand some pretty important stuff happened regarding Venom and Carnage.

 

[Rez]

I miss Clete and the real Carnage. I've always heard he was a weak charecter, but just because he sticks to his guns and isn't riddled with "multiple layers"(bad mismanaged writing ala Venom- KILLER! EAT BRAINS! HATE SPIDERMAN! RAAARGH. LOOK! PROTECT! SERVE! BUT SPIDERMAN IS TERRIBLE!) doesn't mean that. People seem to get so caught up on the fact that he's some kind of big cliche that exists in 100 other places to notice that... he really is one of a kind. Pure evil. When's the last villian that Spiderman had as evil as Carnage?

 

[MaxCarnage]

Well, the interesting thing about this Carnage is that he will never truly be dead. He made a reappearance in the USM video game, and was more like his 616 counterpart with Pete in the suit. I have a feeling that the Ultimate Clone Saga will feature Ben Reilly and a Carnage suit as well; after all, the Carnage suit is basically a clone of Peter (hence clone saga for those of you who aren't making the connection).

So he is different, but I think in an interesting way. The point of Ultimate is to be different from 616, and while I think that they're staying true to who Spider-Man is, the world around him is very different. I like it.

 

[ragingdemon155]

Well, the interesting thing about this Carnage is that he will never truly be dead. He made a reappearance in the USM video game, and was more like his 616 counterpart with Pete in the suit. I have a feeling that the Ultimate Clone Saga will feature Ben Reilly and a Carnage suit as well; after all, the Carnage suit is basically a clone of Peter (hence clone saga for those of you who aren't making the connection).

So he is different, but I think in an interesting way. The point of Ultimate is to be different from 616, and while I think that they're staying true to who Spider-Man is, the world around him is very different. I like it.

That's pretty much how I feel. I enjoyed the genetic backgroud that Bendis gave the character and the connection he had with Peter.

 

[MaxCarnage]

That's pretty much how I feel. I enjoyed the genetic backgroud that Bendis gave the character and the connection he had with Peter.

Seeing him partially form as Pete's father in the Carnage arc was pretty cool. And when he killed Gwen, when he formed Pete's face for that instant, was pretty crazy.

I do agree, btw, that killing Gwen like that was a mistake. I liked her character and thought that there was an interesting triangle developing between Pete, Gwen, and MJ. It just seemed like a bit of a waste to off her like that, especially being killed sort of mindlessly the way she was. It was a surprise, though.

 

[Feature]

When people say that killing Gwen was a mistake in the Ultimate Universe because it wasn't as meaningful as it was in the 616 Universe, are those people disregarding the fact that in the 616 Universe Gwen was murdered by Norman Osborn, her lover, shortly after bearing his children, and that apparently MJ kept their secret all the while? Because that renders her death meaningless and welcome, and that is the legacy of her 616 existence.
Contrarily, in the Ultimate Universe she was someone who had just begun to trust Peter, learning his secret identity, and then she is killed by something that only exists because of Peter's secret identity, his face being the last thing that she sees. That makes Peter want to quit being Spider-Man, that makes Peter hate himself, and that was meaningful.
As far as Carnage goes, I want to see Cletus. I do want to see him merge with the suit, but the Carnage origin was great because it made Carnage more of a personal threat to Peter than he ever was before. He is part of Peter, and whether or not he ever becomes one with Cletus, that adds a whole new dimension to their rivalry.
Ultimate Carnage and the death of Ultimate Gwen get my thumbs up!

 

[ragingdemon155]

When people say that killing Gwen was a mistake in the Ultimate Universe because it wasn't as meaningful as it was in the 616 Universe, are those people disregarding the fact that in the 616 Universe Gwen was murdered by Norman Osborn, her lover, shortly after bearing his children, and that apparently MJ kept their secret all the while? Because that renders her death meaningless and welcome, and that is the legacy of her 616 existence.
Contrarily, in the Ultimate Universe she was someone who had just begun to trust Peter, learning his secret identity, and then she is killed by something that only exists because of Peter's secret identity, his face being the last thing that she sees. That makes Peter want to quit being Spider-Man, that makes Peter hate himself, and that was meaningful.
As far as Carnage goes, I want to see Cletus. I do want to see him merge with the suit, but the Carnage origin was great because it made Carnage more of a personal threat to Peter than he ever was before. He is part of Peter, and whether or not he ever becomes one with Cletus, that adds a whole new dimension to their rivalry.
Ultimate Carnage and the death of Ultimate Gwen get my thumbs up!

Sins Past never happened so I have no idea what your talking about.

 

[MaxCarnage]

When people say that killing Gwen was a mistake in the Ultimate Universe because it wasn't as meaningful as it was in the 616 Universe, are those people disregarding the fact that in the 616 Universe Gwen was murdered by Norman Osborn, her lover, shortly after bearing his children, and that apparently MJ kept their secret all the while? Because that renders her death meaningless and welcome, and that is the legacy of her 616 existence.
Contrarily, in the Ultimate Universe she was someone who had just begun to trust Peter, learning his secret identity, and then she is killed by something that only exists because of Peter's secret identity, his face being the last thing that she sees. That makes Peter want to quit being Spider-Man, that makes Peter hate himself, and that was meaningful.
As far as Carnage goes, I want to see Cletus. I do want to see him merge with the suit, but the Carnage origin was great because it made Carnage more of a personal threat to Peter than he ever was before. He is part of Peter, and whether or not he ever becomes one with Cletus, that adds a whole new dimension to their rivalry.
Ultimate Carnage and the death of Ultimate Gwen get my thumbs up!

Man, that's tough to read!

It's hard for me to remember to look at Gwen's death in 616 through the Sins Past filter, so yes I was disregarding all of that garbage.

Ultimate Gwen didn't have to die at all. But while the things you say are true, none of that was convincingly relayed by Bendis and thus her death in my opinion became meaningless. Sure, Pete went through a depression phase after Gwen's death, and threatened no more Spider-Man, but he never went through with it. And he didn't know that Gwen had seen his face in Carnage before he died. Sure, he felt somewhat guilty for it, but ultimately it was kind of there and gone again.

 

[Infinity9999x]

When people say that killing Gwen was a mistake in the Ultimate Universe because it wasn't as meaningful as it was in the 616 Universe, are those people disregarding the fact that in the 616 Universe Gwen was murdered by Norman Osborn, her lover, shortly after bearing his children, and that apparently MJ kept their secret all the while? Because that renders her death meaningless and welcome, and that is the legacy of her 616 existence.
Contrarily, in the Ultimate Universe she was someone who had just begun to trust Peter, learning his secret identity, and then she is killed by something that only exists because of Peter's secret identity, his face being the last thing that she sees. That makes Peter want to quit being Spider-Man, that makes Peter hate himself, and that was meaningful.
As far as Carnage goes, I want to see Cletus. I do want to see him merge with the suit, but the Carnage origin was great because it made Carnage more of a personal threat to Peter than he ever was before. He is part of Peter, and whether or not he ever becomes one with Cletus, that adds a whole new dimension to their rivalry.
Ultimate Carnage and the death of Ultimate Gwen get my thumbs up!

Sins past is pure and utter garbage, I wouldn't be surprised if it gets retconned before SM3 comes out.

 

[Punisher RULES]

616 I think means the date of the Marvel Universe launch.
61 for 1961 and it was in june so...616

 

[Dyeathrose]

When people say that killing Gwen was a mistake in the Ultimate Universe because it wasn't as meaningful as it was in the 616 Universe, are those people disregarding the fact that in the 616 Universe Gwen was murdered by Norman Osborn, her lover, shortly after bearing his children, and that apparently MJ kept their secret all the while? Because that renders her death meaningless and welcome, and that is the legacy of her 616 existence.
Contrarily, in the Ultimate Universe she was someone who had just begun to trust Peter, learning his secret identity, and then she is killed by something that only exists because of Peter's secret identity, his face being the last thing that she sees. That makes Peter want to quit being Spider-Man, that makes Peter hate himself, and that was meaningful.

As one of those that disregards Sins Past as a hack story, and ignoring the behind-the-scenes reasons on why Gwen was cast off into the abyss, her death was for about the same summary as you gave for ult!Gwen. She died because she was in love with Peter Parker and was in the apartment he shared with Harry, so when Goblin went out to find Pete, he found her instead. When the story was written, Gwen was never pregnant with Norman's children, MJ never knew her secret, and (depending on which side of the spectrum you're on) she was only having or going to have relations with Peter Parker. Gwen's death in 616 had just as much meaning as it did in the Ultimate universe, whether it felt quick or not. It was because she knew Peter Parker, and she died for it. I should accept that what Sins Past wrote is done and done, and retcon the past, but in that instance, I can't. I just turn the other cheek so to speak, never purchase; out of sight out of mind.

I'm not bothered by the creation story of Carnage, but he ended up getting shafted as a character himself. He was basically a monster sent to terrorize, and as far as I know, was never meant to be a reoccuring rogue. I'd love to have seen how they would've brought in a ult!Cletus, and how he would've ended up with Carnage. I kind of got the feeling that Gwen ended up in the same predicament as she did in 616, and with the writer not sure what to do with her, opted to kill her off. I don't follow Ultimate very closely at all though, save for what few issues I do have, so I only go by memory and speculation.

[ETA:] Ahh, I wanna go ahead and apologize for going off onto that mini-rant, Feature. For me, the original death of Gwen Stacy is something than can be imitated, but it will never have that same impact as it did. It wasn't really her death, but what it meant, was it Peter's fault, was it the Goblin, etc. Very off-topic of me, so I'm sorry.

 

[Symbiotica]

One of the biggest Carnage-fans on the Hype [that is, me], weighs in on the entire concept of "Ultimate...symbiote":

http://www.wimp.com/jingle/

That's pretty much exactly what I think, a soundbite being worth at least 1000 words.

 

[Norman Osborn]

When people say that killing Gwen was a mistake in the Ultimate Universe because it wasn't as meaningful as it was in the 616 Universe, are those people disregarding the fact that in the 616 Universe Gwen was murdered by Norman Osborn, her lover, shortly after bearing his children, and that apparently MJ kept their secret all the while? Because that renders her death meaningless and welcome, and that is the legacy of her 616 existence.

*because a picture's worth a thousand words*