Ultimate Comics Thread

[El Bastardo]

You're mistaking deus ex machina for plot device and character arc. Or journey. In this case, technically journey, or at least arc in the atypical sense. They are not one and the same. Ever. Claiming something a deus ex machina prohibits the ability for it to belong properly inside the narrative.

And now back to our regularly-scheduled spoiler tag. Whee!

Spoiler

Yes, the teleporter plane was just introduced at about the time Cap steals it, I do believe. I'll agree with you there. I disagree with your implied point about the intent of introduction. Cap explicitly states that he only agreed to be captured so he could get his hands on it. That makes it justification, narratively, for the wonderful romp through France which occupied 1-2 early issues, one, and two, for getting Cap to Alaska, was it? for the finale. This is outside of deus ex machina territory. Were it deus ex machina, Cap would be wandering aimlessly, stumble upon it, and likely proclaim, "Oh snap!" That A on his mask doesn't stand for Luck!

My opinion on the matter of the ending is that way too many people would have whined about how, had Cap and Red Skull dueled in an epic battle of two-page spreads, it would have been just a rehash of how Millar ended Ultimates and Ultimates 2. So I don't care about how he ended it, because it works as an ending to the conflict, and further shows that, for all his swagger and power, Red Skull was a small threat and nothing more than a boy with daddy issues. The real ending works well enough, too, so moot point.

But yes, the ending as contrived. All endings are contrived, and most writers readily admit that fact. (All writers shoud admit this fact.) But, hey, have fun with your disappointment, I guess.

 

[Saved]

You're mistaking deus ex machina for plot device and character arc. Or journey. In this case, technically journey, or at least arc in the atypical sense. They are not one and the same. Ever. Claiming something a deus ex machina prohibits the ability for it to belong properly inside the narrative.

And now back to our regularly-scheduled spoiler tag. Whee!

Spoiler

Yes, the teleporter plane was just introduced at about the time Cap steals it, I do believe. I'll agree with you there. I disagree with your implied point about the intent of introduction. Cap explicitly states that he only agreed to be captured so he could get his hands on it. That makes it justification, narratively, for the wonderful romp through France which occupied 1-2 early issues, one, and two, for getting Cap to Alaska, was it? for the finale. This is outside of deus ex machina territory. Were it deus ex machina, Cap would be wandering aimlessly, stumble upon it, and likely proclaim, "Oh snap!" That A on his mask doesn't stand for Luck!

My opinion on the matter of the ending is that way too many people would have whined about how, had Cap and Red Skull dueled in an epic battle of two-page spreads, it would have been just a rehash of how Millar ended Ultimates and Ultimates 2. So I don't care about how he ended it, because it works as an ending to the conflict, and further shows that, for all his swagger and power, Red Skull was a small threat and nothing more than a boy with daddy issues. The real ending works well enough, too, so moot point.

But yes, the ending as contrived. All endings are contrived, and most writers readily admit that fact. (All writers shoud admit this fact.) But, hey, have fun with your disappointment, I guess.

In any event, this discussion makes it seem like I hated the arc - which I didn't. I liked it, I just would've preferred a better ending (IMO, anyway). Clearly some people liked it, so Millar did his job.

As for the deux ex machina thing, I see what you're saying there. I guess my understanding (or feelings toward it) must be broader, where I'm more likely to complain about convuluted (spelling) plot devices and label them as deux ex machina if I feel they came out of nowhere to aid the hero.

In any event, I just want to see a decent showdown between [BLACKOUT]Blackthorne, Ghost Rider, and the Avengers where I'm satisfied with the fight. I just have this terrible feeling there'll be some loophole where Blackthorne loses his powers before the battle goes anywhere, and then Ghost Rider and the Avengers kiss and make up because they both were in danger of dying from that threat. [/BLACKOUT]

 

[Drz]

Well i thought Ultimate Avengers 2 had a better conclusion than the 1st. Okay the twist with Nick Fury was just absolutely fantastic, but the 2nd book has a more overall enjoyable ending for many characters. The bad guys get taken down & Millar puts a cruel joke and a praise for Punisher at the same time. I really do hope we can see more of Tyrone Cash & Ghost Rider.

 

[Saved]

I'm probably gonna pick it up next week along with Ultimate Avengers 3 #1.

 

[chris moore]

Yeah... I think I'm done with Ultimate Avengers. I might still stick with Ultimates. But I'm finished with the black ops title. I thought one of the points of Ultimatum was that the UltU was getting a bit too crowded and convoluted? But now we've got Black Hulk, a new Daredevil, Warmachine, Tony Stark II aka Greg, new Black Widow, new Wasp, Blade.
New villains I would be fine with - there weren't too many of them outside of Spidey's rogues gallery anyway. But every arc having a new team member/guest member is just expanding the sandbox again

 

[Saved]

I don't have a problem with that, I'm enjoying seeing the new characters (even if we are going a bit 'Hulk' crazy - but, so is 616, so whatevs). I just hope most of them aren't throw-aways never to be seen again. But, overall, Millar's still doing a great job with the Ult. U.

 

[Drz]

Yeah i mean the regular cast is Hawkeye, Nick Fury, War Machine & Black Widow at the end of the day. Nerd Hulk is making his comeback in Avengers 3. Infact Ultimate Avengers 3 #1 preview is up!

Here's also Ultimate Spider-Man #13 preview!

 

[Drz]

Spider-Man #13:
Bendis' Spider-Man series keeps flowing nicely with the Chameleon arc, but it's kinda like the many Chameleon arcs before it, added with the twist that Iceman and Human Torch are going tot ake down Fake-Spidey HARD! Was also awesome to see JJ Jameson again.

Ultimate Avengers 3 #1
I don't even know where to start! So many plots coming from 1 single issue! So we got Blade whos out there to kill vampires and the stakes are literally getting higher and higher. Anthony.... with an Iron Man costume... Did Millar just make Anthony Stark into an vampire?!?! It's so intriquing! I kinda went "eh" with Connor having the same "power gain" as Matt Murdock, but something makes me think perhaps Stick made this accident happen on Ray. It's still cool that you got the whole Legacy character thing going on, this plot with Hand vs. Vampires AND he's a vampire now too.

So he is his own man really, just tributing the fallen hero Matt Murdock. Very interested whats happening next. Sneak peak on Ultimate Avengers 3 #2 featuring Nerd Hulk!

 

[Saved]

Ultimate Avengers 3 #1 definently started off at a faster pace then the past two titles. It was like, non stop exposition. Totally agree, Drz.

 

[Venom160]

Spider-Man #13:
Bendis' Spider-Man series keeps flowing nicely with the Chameleon arc, but it's kinda like the many Chameleon arcs before it, added with the twist that Iceman and Human Torch are going tot ake down Fake-Spidey HARD! Was also awesome to see JJ Jameson again.

Yeah this Chameleon arc has been amazing. A definite front runner for best arc this volume. I'm digging how [blackout]in the span of what two days Chameleon was able to completely **** up both Spidey's reputation and Peter's life so thoroughly. Was also liking female Chameleon until she took on JJJ's face and kept her body.[/blackout]

Ultimate Avengers 3 #1
I don't even know where to start! So many plots coming from 1 single issue! So we got Blade whos out there to kill vampires and the stakes are literally getting higher and higher. Anthony.... with an Iron Man costume... Did Millar just make Anthony Stark into an vampire?!?! It's so intriquing! I kinda went "eh" with Connor having the same "power gain" as Matt Murdock, but something makes me think perhaps Stick made this accident happen on Ray. It's still cool that you got the whole Legacy character thing going on, this plot with Hand vs. Vampires AND he's a vampire now too.

So he is his own man really, just tributing the fallen hero Matt Murdock. Very interested whats happening next.

Yeah right now I'm keeping my opinion of the new DD to myself until I see what else (if any) they do with him. As for the issue it was a kickass first issue. I am interested to see what Cap does after what happened in UA1. Also I was alittle confused on something. Who was the guy in the [BLACKOUT]mark 1 Iron Man armor? Are we to assume that thats Gregory Stark and if so where did he get that armor?[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Saved]

It's speculation at this point, V. It could really be anybody in the [blackout]armor[/blackout].

 

[Drz]

What if the vampires resurrected the Stark brothers' father? is it possible? I really hope we can see more power houses getting into vampires. We know the Nerd Hulk is a vampire, but some mutants and whatnot too please!

 

[Aztec]

I just read the trade of Ultimate Comics Avengers 1. I know, I know, I'm really late to the party but nonetheless I wanted to see if anyone else shares my assessment of the first arc.

Let me start off by saying that I LOVED Ultimates 1 & 2. They were terrific reinventions of classic characters and the art and the writing made it all feel as if it were actually possible on some level. It was fast paced and action packed but still left room for character and story.

With that being said...I was let down with Ultimate Comics Avengers 1. I'm sorry, but I just don't understand why the choice was made to simply create total re-tread characters? I mean: "Nerd Hulk", "New Black Widow", "Red Wasp", etc.; seriously? The story also felt incredibly rushed and Red Skull's actions and motivations were rather incoherent. He wanted to go back in time to correct his childhood; so along the way he murders hundreds of people?

What happened to making Ultimate versions of Marvel favorites? That was the best part of the original Ultimates. Instead we just got new versions of the same characters from previous arcs. I've took a sneak peek at some of the latter arcs and unfortunately it looks like more of the same: "New Daredevil", "African American Hulk". It also seems like each arc has a completely different team which makes it difficult to follow the title as a single entity. I was hoping Mark was going to choose 4 or 5 new characters (with a few old favorites of course) and create a stable black ops team to fight the super-baddies. It just seems to lack in originality to me when all the characters are simply "2.0" versions of previous characters.

Perhaps it gets better in the next two arcs? I hope so but as of now I'm sadly disappointed.

 

[El Bastardo]

Uh...

"Nerd Hulk": Bruce Banner is MIA or in Jeph Loeb's X-whatever thing I'm not reading.

"New Black Widow": Because the old Black Widow is dead. But you knew that, because you LOVED Ultimates 2.

"Red Wasp": Wasp is dead, per Ultimatum and Jeph Loeb.

And why wouldn't they create "total re-tread characters" with similar names? Oh, right, legacy is something that has never happened in either the 616 or even on the other side of the street at DC. Ever. No legacy. Nosir.

And Millar was up front about how the roster would work back before the first issue of Ultimate Avengers even came out. He said there'd be a few constant members, and the rest of the roster would be changing through the minis.

 

[Drz]

With that being said...I was let down with Ultimate Comics Avengers 1. I'm sorry, but I just don't understand why the choice was made to simply create total re-tread characters? I mean: "Nerd Hulk"

Well Loeb has the leash on Bruce Banner, so Millar decided to make a new take on Hulk by creating a "Ultimate Proffessor Hulk" pretty much. Yeah he's a Hulk but as you read the story you can see he's a totally different character.

, "New Black Widow",

Another completely different character just taking a codename. She's there to spy on Fury for Carol Danvers and to me is personally quite the badass. She acts like she hates romance and Nick Fury, but there are interesting reveals on Avengers 2.

"Red Wasp"

Another different character who deserves more spotlight. I hope she gets that in Avengers 3 and 4.

so along the way he murders hundreds of people?

The only way he could get the blue prints was by doing a siege attack, and then the mass murders with the Cube we're practice until he could alter reality in a mass scale. He even says in his dialogue something like "i'm done with you worms. I now know how to use this properly to gain my wish".

What happened to making Ultimate versions of Marvel favorites?

Loeb took in charge. :| Loeb offered Millar Ultimate Fantastic Four, but Millar wanted to make a Black Ops team.

Instead we just got new versions of the same characters from previous arcs.

Well they are very different. I mean Gregory Stark is completely different from Tony Stark, and Jim Rhodes is much different from his 616-counterpart.

I've took a sneak peek at some of the latter arcs and unfortunately it looks like more of the same: "New Daredevil", "African American Hulk". It also seems like each arc has a completely different team which makes it difficult to follow the title as a single entity. I was hoping Mark was going to choose 4 or 5 new characters

Nick Fury, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Gregory Stark & War Machine are the main characters of Avengers. The team rotates thats true. Avengers 2 is about Tyrone Cash (Black Hulk), Hawkeye, Punisher (Black Ops Captain America), Black Widow and War Machine againts Ghost Rider.

Perhaps it gets better in the next two arcs? I hope so but as of now I'm sadly disappointed.

People liked Ultimate Avengers 2 alot. Tho it is mostly a Punisher and Ghost Rider story.

 

[Aztec]

No need to get snippy El Bastardo. You are acting like I offended you personally.

I'm aware the characters are dead from previous continuity (I've even read summaries of Loeb's mess to be current); but with that said it's still very disappointing to see Millar just re-tread characters. It would have been so much better IMHO if he tried to "Ultimize" a new breed of heroes for the black ops missions. It just feels like he's trying to re-do the same characters who have already been redone.

 

[Saved]

No need to get snippy El Bastardo. You are acting like I offended you personally.

I'm aware the characters are dead from previous continuity (I've even read summaries of Loeb's mess to be current); but with that said it's still very disappointing to see Millar just re-tread characters. It would have been so much better IMHO if he tried to "Ultimize" a new breed of heroes for the black ops missions. It just feels like he's trying to re-do the same characters who have already been redone.

Considering the "re-treaded" characters have entirely different personalities and morals or motives than the original heroes, they're really in no way the 'same' or even similar (aside from the hero names, obviously).

 

[Drz]

And we are getting new characters like Blade, Punisher, Ghost Rider, Red Skull and so forth. I really don't see Gregory Stark and Jim Rhodes as replacement Stark either.

 

[Saved]

Blade is from USM issue 95-96, Drz.

 

[Drz]

Well thats absolutely true, but we are getting a fleshed out Blade or so.

 

[Saved]

And we are getting new characters like Blade, Punisher, Ghost Rider, Red Skull and so forth. I really don't see Gregory Stark and Jim Rhodes as replacement Stark either.

Blade is from USM issue 95-96, Drz.

Well thats absolutely true, but we are getting a fleshed out Blade or so.

Applies to those all too.

But yes, Millar is fleshing the characters out more and revealing stuff about that that really gives them depth.

 

[Drz]

Well Jim Rhodes was so different from Ultimate Iron Man Origins that it's really hard to consider them the same. Millar said (tho i really think he was joking, but who knows) that Ultimate Iron Man isn't canon but a TV show program sponsored by Stark... This sounds ridicilously extreme, but who knows lol.

 

[Saved]

That explains Gregory.

Not like I know if he's serious or not either, but it bothers me so much when writers throw continuity to the wind and rewrite everything that doesn't fit what they want for the characters or story they're trying to tell. Continuity is the only thing keeping the comic world together, and everytime someone doesn't adhere to it (not like it's the first time, look at the last 20 years) it cheapens things and causes people to become apathetic - "What's the point? They'll rewrite it anyway."

/End rant

 

[Drz]

Exactly. So i really hope it's a joke.

 

[El Bastardo]

No need to get snippy El Bastardo. You are acting like I offended you personally.

I assure you I am not.

Rather, I addressed you as would I anyone who, in a literary discussion, was, quite frankly, wrong.

I'm aware the characters are dead from previous continuity (I've even read summaries of Loeb's mess to be current); but with that said it's still very disappointing to see Millar just re-tread characters. It would have been so much better IMHO if he tried to "Ultimize" a new breed of heroes for the black ops missions. It just feels like he's trying to re-do the same characters who have already been redone.

The problem with generic criticisms is they're meaningless. Typically, criticisms should involve a specific instance - which, yes, you do kind of have - followed by a solution to the criticism: i.e. "What he does here doesn't work well, so what he should instead try is this, this, and that." Subjective concerns need not apply.

It makes perfect sense, per the narratives and approach, for Millar to, ahem, "re-tread" characters who have already been done - the entire point being that Millar is still writing a team that is an extension of the U.S. military, and so they'll re-use the code names of their operatives. For Nerd Hulk, which is a silly name but that's kind of the point, the Hulk formula is an off-shoot and extension of the Super Soldier Serum, and property of the U.S. military. For Black Widow, it's a black ops code name. Red Wasp fits the character, and keeps the Wasp name in use so that, should the character be caught in the light, she doesn't scream "Liberator" terrorist to the public. Note that Punisher essentially became the Ultimized USAgent instead of continuing under the terrorist name "The Punisher." War Machine? U.S. military. And I bet that if Clint Barton ever died, the name "Hawkeye" would see use again. It belongs to the people they're working for.

Beyond that, of course, it's simple superhero mythology and the idea of passing on legacy and mantle.

But since you deem it a particular area worth criticism, why not elaborate further and tell us the better way Millar should have done it? Which characters should he have Ultimized instead of "re-treading?" Why?