Unpopular Opinion: BOTH of Joss Whedon's Avengers movies are overrated

[StormC]

Oh man, even with the early buzz the first act had me worried. You can't open an Avengers movie with some god damn SHIELD heist. Even when they introduced the Avengers it was slow going; it wasn't until Cap jumped in to save the old man in Germany I was like "okay, I'm totally on board."

 

[JtheDreamer]

Summoner, you really found the Thor/Hulk tussle exhilarating? LOL. It wasn't even really a fight. Thor's whole agenda was to subdue - not to get into a long drawn out brawl. He got in one cool moment uppercutting the Hulk with the Mjolnir, but after that he was getting slammed around.

At any rate, both Avengers films are very nuanced and intricately woven by Joss Whedon. His character work is top notch - always gave everyone a reason to be there and everything they did advanced the plot. There were never any cheap throw-in moments for the fans either. IMO that's where the Russos took a step back in Civil War compared to TWS.

I agree that the cinematography left a lot to be desired in the first film, but it was leagues better in AOU. Where AOU failed is a sloppy third act and the final showdown with Ultron. Whedon's fatigue was pretty evident at that point IMO. Eventually the legendary Avengers nemesis was turned into to a punting object. It's too bad too because Ultron has some really great moment throughout the first two acts - particularly his dialogue.

 

[Lorus]

Both Avengers films are pretty great and well deserving of their praise in my opinion. Whedon's dialogue is a thing of beauty and I feel people often disregard the sheer craftsmanship on display with these, go back and pay attention to how each line feeds and flows seamlessly through to the next one. It has a rhythm and structure to it which makes the conversations so fluid that I actually think it works against him for some folks that confuse that consistent cadence for a lack of characterisation.

I also think it's pretty disingenuous of the OP to compare Civil War to the Avengers in terms of its use of the existing Marvel continuity. Avengers is specifically written to operate as an entry level film and a sequel simultaneously. Each character is given a remarkably efficient introduction that condenses the finer points of the previous entries while also setting up the characters for their arcs in the current film. Civil War makes no such effort, it can only be understood fully by seeing other films in the series. I understand why, but the fact remains that Avengers was undertaking a much harder task in actively pulling together and combining the separate threads of the films while Civil War doesn't have any of that legwork.

 

[Set]

Loved Avengers, right from the snappy Pepper/Tony banter at the beginning, but it had a few elements I didn't care for;

I don't like Coulson. In Thor and Iron Man 2, he came off as a smarmy jerk. I was right there with Tony at the beginning of the movie. "I thought his first name was Agent?" pretending to be a robot to get out of speaking to him, etc. When he turned out to be someone that the team ostensibly cared about enough to 'avenge' I was baffled at this sudden turnaround.

Jeremy Renner seems to be a gaffe machine, and not much care for the movies, his part in the movies, the genre or the opinion of women, in general. I could ignore all that if Hawkeye was friggin' awesome. But he wasn't. He was deadly dull 'ultimate' Hawkeye, which makes some sense, since all of his comic-book quip and snark has been transplanted to MCU Stark, leaving him neither an interesting gimmick, nor an interesting personality. If he'd died in Age of Ultron and the much more interesting (IMO) Quicksilver had lived, I would have liked at least *something* in that movie...

No super-powered women, apparently. Until we met the Scarlet Witch, it was pretty much Sif. I don't blame Whedon for the inability to use the Wasp, since she was tied up with the Wright-helmed Ant-Man movie on the plate (even if Wright apparently didn't plan on using her anyway...), but having some SHIELD agent with guns fight alongside Iron Man, Hulk and Thor seemed like some sort of bad joke.

Every scene with Thor talking. Ugh. Go hunt bilge snipe and leave this movie to people who can act. Stop smiling goofily all the time, you're supposed to be an immortal quasi-Viking demigod of storm and war. This isn't a romantic comedy.

Other than those quibbles, I pretty much loved the movie. Ruffalo was the Banner I always wanted. Scarlett owned her role, and the writing in her first 'reverse interrogation' and her later chat with Loki was badass. Stark was Stark. It's his world and the rest of us are just living in it. "He's a full-tilt diva," Tony says, not-at-all totally talking about *himself.* The humor was generally well done, particularly with characters poking fun at themselves (Cap saying, 'It appears to run on some sort of electricity...' and Tony accepting that he's just asked a man from the forties to do something most modern people couldn't do, 'You're not wrong...').

Age of Ultron, on the other hand, kind of sucked. Too much was tried, IMO, and the end with the robots, instead of feeling climactic or gripping or exciting, just felt to me kind of busy and rushed and exhausting. Introducing Quicksilver, the Scarlet Witch *and* the Vision, as well as Ultron, in the same movie, particularly after the Avengers, which had individual movies from Cap, Thor and Iron Man, as well as appearances in those movies by Fury, Loki, Coulson, Black Widow and blink-and-you-missed-him Hawkeye, felt overly ambitious, and didn't, again, IMO, serve those new characters particularly well. Quips like Hawkeye cracking a joke over Quicksilvers corpse or Vision and Thor chatting about his terribly well-balanced hammer didn't really work for me.

In short, Avengers was pretty darn awesome (if not perfect), but Age of Ultron was a whole new level of disappointment.

I honestly think that the Green Lantern and (first) Fantastic Four movies were better than Age of Ultron.

 

[JtheDreamer]

I honestly think that the Green Lantern and (first) Fantastic Four movies were better than Age of Ultron.

And I honestly think you're dabbling in meth. Just nonsense. Absolute nonsense.

 

[eeffos]

Both Avengers films are pretty great and well deserving of their praise in my opinion. Whedon's dialogue is a thing of beauty and I feel people often disregard the sheer craftsmanship on display with these, go back and pay attention to how each line feeds and flows seamlessly through to the next one. It has a rhythm and structure to it which makes the conversations so fluid that I actually think it works against him for some folks that confuse that consistent cadence for a lack of characterisation.

I also think it's pretty disingenuous of the OP to compare Civil War to the Avengers in terms of its use of the existing Marvel continuity. Avengers is specifically written to operate as an entry level film and a sequel simultaneously. Each character is given a remarkably efficient introduction that condenses the finer points of the previous entries while also setting up the characters for their arcs in the current film. Civil War makes no such effort, it can only be understood fully by seeing other films in the series. I understand why, but the fact remains that Avengers was undertaking a much harder task in actively pulling together and combining the separate threads of the films while Civil War doesn't have any of that legwork.

Excellent post, I don't think people realize the monumental undertaking Whedon took on with the Avengers.
It's easy to look back now 4 years later and nit pick, but you all will be doing that same thing 4 years from now with this years movies.
All I know is when the Avengers came out I looked around the movie theater and saw every age group, nationality,...etc. Then when when it was re-released for limited run right before going to DVD I saw the theater packed again with the same mix of individuals. What was really neat about that was how many of the older baby boomers were in attendance both times.
The Avenger was truly an event film, you don't get to be an event film unless you got the right mix of story, acting, fan engagement and fun.....and this movie had it!

 

[Erzengel]

The awesomeness of both films can be summed up by these two shots;

I know it's not a huge list but we've had 6 X-Men movies, 3 Fantastic Four movies and a Batman v. Superman movie. But none of them really capture that full on battle shots the way the Avengers movies have done it.

X-Men has it's glimpses of all out battle shots. But it's hard that you want to see them go all out. And it's either very brief or not the characters you really want to see. Even with Apocalypse, the end battle just felt a little lackluster.

I don't even have to mention anything with FF.

And the Trinity vs. Doomsday, was okay but it didn't necessarily break any ground.

The only thing that has matched it, is the airport scene in CW.

 

[Matt Mortem]

For me the biggest issue with The Avengers films is Whedon's quips. There's a time and a place and Whedon really doesn't know when not to quip. It's most glaring for me when Thor gives Ultron that line about stalling when Ultron is choking him. So stupid.

 

[Tony Stark]

I would not go that far. In terms of box office, sure. But many of the X-Men movies I would take any day over AoU. Do not sell yourself short just because Apocalypse was a disappointment.

Kidding aside, Whedon left his mark. He can hold his head high on the genre.

Sell himself short? I was an avid reader of the X-men books back in the 90's and remember watching the old animated shows. None of the X-men films have captured the imagination of the comics. None of them have. The best thing I could say is that X2 and DOFP did a good job of adding the human element. The ending of X2 is deeply emotional and was a great cliffhanger (which had a terrible followup that cheapened it).

Both Avengers films captured the best of the comics. That's just something that cannot be said of the X-men films. XMA wasn't a disappointment, it's a total friggin disaster box office wise, and it was a much better movie than BvS so that's saying alot.

 

[First Avenger]

I think both Avengers movies,along with Raimi's beautiful two classic Spider-Man movies, are the only CBMs that successfully recreated the Silver Age of Marvel Comics on screen. IMO Whedon totally pulled off the sense of wonder,fantasy,excitement and over-the-top elements of What I consider the best period of comics ever and What actually made Marvel the big comic house it is today.


While the Russos beautifully brought us movie versions of more recent stories(with Civil War being actually better than The comics to me),Avengers and AoU felt like they came right out of a Lee/Kirby comic.
Now of course the first movie left a bigger impact than the second,but I was actually more impressed by What Whedon did in AoU: the action,the character beats,the team aspect,the dream sequences,the farm scenes,the Ultron/Vision dichotomy ultimately led to a more interesting and layered movie than the the first one for me.


I will forever be grateful to what Whedon gave me with his movies.

 

[The Batman]

Neither film is overrated, ESPECIALLY Age of Ultron. I’m not a huge fan of that film at all, but you could make a better argument for it being underrated, if anything.

The first film is definitely in a post-honeymoon phase, where you have an increased number of fans going “It’s not as good as everyone thinks it is”, which happens to a lot of iconic movies. Truth be told, it is the definitive CBM of this decade, and nothing else has come close, really. Not only does it work as the culmination and climax of Phase 1, it also works in its own right, which is probably part of the reason why it made an insane amount of money compared to the preceding phase 1 films.

Moviebob has a regular series called “Really that Good”, which you can find on Youtube. He makes a great case for why The Avengers is a legitimately good film.

 

[daddydivine]

Whedon was the only director to go full silver age comic and make it succeed. That alone places him above most superhero movie directors. Whedon personifies Marvel Studios with the way they can please the comicbook fanboy minority, the general audience, and critics. What other director can assume that type of balance.

Bring Whedon back and give him full creative control of the Great Lake Avengers and watch Marvel have another billion dollar franchise.

 

[Summoner]

Neither film is overrated, ESPECIALLY Age of Ultron. I’m not a huge fan of that film at all, but you could make a better argument for it being underrated, if anything.

The first film is definitely in a post-honeymoon phase, where you have an increased number of fans going “It’s not as good as everyone thinks it is”, which happens to a lot of iconic movies. Truth be told, it is the definitive CBM of this decade, and nothing else has come close, really. Not only does it work as the culmination and climax of Phase 1, it also works in its own right, which is probably part of the reason why it made an insane amount of money compared to the preceding phase 1 films.

Moviebob has a regular series called “Really that Good”, which you can find on Youtube. He makes a great case for why The Avengers is a legitimately good film.

I LOVE youtube breakdowns and analysis's, thanks for pointing me towards this. I'm generally an open minding person. If the person manages to make strong points supporting his opinion, I can be swayed in a heart beat.

 

[Alex Murphy]

Neither film is overrated, ESPECIALLY Age of Ultron. I’m not a huge fan of that film at all, but you could make a better argument for it being underrated, if anything.

The first film is definitely in a post-honeymoon phase, where you have an increased number of fans going “It’s not as good as everyone thinks it is”, which happens to a lot of iconic movies. Truth be told, it is the definitive CBM of this decade, and nothing else has come close, really. Not only does it work as the culmination and climax of Phase 1, it also works in its own right, which is probably part of the reason why it made an insane amount of money compared to the preceding phase 1 films.

Moviebob has a regular series called “Really that Good”, which you can find on Youtube. He makes a great case for why The Avengers is a legitimately good film.

[YT]xSAp-QCHj_A[/YT]

 

[The Batman]

I LOVE youtube breakdowns and analysis's, thanks for pointing me towards this. I'm generally an open minding person. If the person manages to make strong points supporting his opinion, I can be swayed in a heart beat.

I'm glad I suggested it, then. Even if you disagree with him, it'll be nice to see your reaction to the video. The "Really that good" series is great for threads like this.

 

[kguillou]

Both films are great films and groundbreaking....BUT I do feel as though the first one's hype is a tad inflated. To me, the film wasn't AS good as it could have been.

1) Too much time is spent on the Helicarrier.
2) The cinematography. I think we all agree on this. I keep imagining what the movie could have looked like if they got a real cinematographer like Larry Fong or the cinematographer from the first THOR film to give the film an epic look and vibe.
3) The Thor/ Hulk fight was a letdown. This was one of the showdowns I was most looking forward to. I was hoping to see something like their battle in The Ultimates comic. Just a pure epic clash of titans. Sigh...
4) The pacing in the first half is a little slow although to be honest, upon many subsequent viewing it doesn't bother me anymore.

I think everyone was just so happy to see all these heroes on the big screen together and happy that the film was competently made with a very witty script. I remember leaving the theater not in love with the movie but it has greatly grown on me upon many blu ray viewings.

I don't think Age of Ultron is overrated. Many people feel it was a step down from the first Avengers. AoU simply needed a more menacing Ultron, plain and simple. Ultron was too goofy and I couldn't take him seriously.

 

[Flint Marko]

Unpopular opinion: BOTH of Joss Whedon's Avengers movies are in the top 10 best superhero films ever made

 

[PretenderNX01]

As an X-Men fan I'd kill for quality movies that people cared about like The Avenger's

Hmm, I liked "Days of Future Past" better. It had an actual plot

Avengers is fun and all but it ends with them ripping of "Independance Day" so it doesn't end as strongly as the middle.

Unpopular opinion: BOTH of Joss Whedon's Avengers movies are in the top 10 best superhero films ever made

Well that doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I give the first one credit for actually pulling off a good superhero movie team up. I did find the ending somewhat weak, with them actually channeling the Phantom Menace of all movies. They also did that cliche movie villain lets himself be captured thing, but every damn movie seemed to be doing that.

I thought the second movie was a bloated mess.

 

[Summoner]

Unpopular opinion: BOTH of Joss Whedon's Avengers movies are in the top 10 best superhero films ever made

OOC, what's your Top 10?

 

[Flint Marko]

OOC, what's your Top 10?

In terms of what I feel are the best 10 CBM's (and not necessarily my favorite) I'd go:

1. The Avengers
2. The Dark Knight (these first two are basically interchangeable in my eyes but for the sake of being a contrarian... )
3. Captain America: Winter Soldier
4. Captain America: Civil War
5. Batman Begins
6. Iron Man
7. Guardians of the Galaxy
8. Spider-man (2001)
9. Avengers: Age of Ultron
10. Spider-man 2

I can already hear the haters clacking away on their keyboards t:
For the record I reserve the right to change this at any time but it's how I feel at the moment.
I think Spider-man 2 is overrated but it still cracks the top 10. I didn't put any old Superman/Batman movies in my list as well because I think they're overrated as well; doesn't mean I don't like or respect them, I just think the genre has grown and the bar has really been raised. The X-men series would have at least one movie make the next five (FC or DOFP) but I've really grown tired of that franchise over the past couple years.
I'm sure everyone here will disagree with this list and that's fine. I bask in your judgement.

 

[DACrowe]

I think both Avengers movies,along with Raimi's beautiful two classic Spider-Man movies, are the only CBMs that successfully recreated the Silver Age of Marvel Comics on screen. IMO Whedon totally pulled off the sense of wonder,fantasy,excitement and over-the-top elements of What I consider the best period of comics ever and What actually made Marvel the big comic house it is today.


While the Russos beautifully brought us movie versions of more recent stories(with Civil War being actually better than The comics to me),Avengers and AoU felt like they came right out of a Lee/Kirby comic.
Now of course the first movie left a bigger impact than the second,but I was actually more impressed by What Whedon did in AoU: the action,the character beats,the team aspect,the dream sequences,the farm scenes,the Ultron/Vision dichotomy ultimately led to a more interesting and layered movie than the the first one for me.


I will forever be grateful to what Whedon gave me with his movies.

I definitely agree about the first Avengers and two Raimi Spidey movies. Well said.

 

[Erzengel]

In terms of what I feel are the best 10 CBM's (and not necessarily my favorite) I'd go:

1. The Avengers
2. The Dark Knight (these first two are basically interchangeable in my eyes but for the sake of being a contrarian... )
3. Captain America: Winter Soldier
4. Captain America: Civil War
5. Batman Begins
6. Iron Man
7. Guardians of the Galaxy
8. Spider-man (2001)
9. Avengers: Age of Ultron
10. Spider-man 2

I can already hear the haters clacking away on their keyboards t:
For the record I reserve the right to change this at any time but it's how I feel at the moment.
I think Spider-man 2 is overrated but it still cracks the top 10. I didn't put any old Superman/Batman movies in my list as well because I think they're overrated as well; doesn't mean I don't like or respect them, I just think the genre has grown and the bar has really been raised. The X-men series would have at least one movie make the next five (FC or DOFP) but I've really grown tired of that franchise over the past couple years.
I'm sure everyone here will disagree with this list and that's fine. I bask in your judgement.

Personally Begins, Spider-Man are probably Top 15. Age of Ultron maybe 16 but at least top 20.

I'd really have to put Superman 2 or at least Superman in there. They're dated but classics and personally still the iconic Superman movie for me.

And I'd put in X2 and DOFP in the Top 10 as well.

 

[KangConquers]

Most movies I've seen 30 times don't shine the same way for me either. I think a lot of this is after the fact nitpicking.

There's this great quote by Hitchcock that I can't quite place about your experience in the theater being the most important part of film. And I can say without hesitation, The Avengers was the most enjoyable time I've ever had in a theater.

Is it the greatest movie of all-time? Absolutely not. Is it one of the greatest Summer Tent Poles ever? I'd say yes. In the top 20 at least.

My personal top 20 Superhero movies:


1. The Avengers
2. The Dark Knight
3. Captain America: Civil War
4. Spider-Man 2
5. Superman: The Movie
6. Guardians of the Galaxy
7. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
8. Iron Man
9. X-2: X-Men United
10. Spider-Man
11. Deadpool
12. Batman Begins
13. X-Men: Days of Future Past
14. Superman II
15. Captain America: The First Avenger
16. The Dark Knight Rises
17. Ant-Man
18. X-Men
19. Avengers: Age of Ultron
20. Thor

 

[Mjölnir]

Unpopular opinion: BOTH of Joss Whedon's Avengers movies are in the top 10 best superhero films ever made

An opinion I share. Another unpopular opinion of mine is that Batman Begins is clearly better than The Dark Knight.