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VFX Artist Protest Hollywood

In regards to Rhythm & Hues, while I understand the pressures they were dealing with, and I totally feel for everyone who worked there who had to deal with it all and those who are now out of job there is also the matter that I hate the vast majority of the special effects work they've done in the last decade, I Am Legend in particular.

There's always been something about their texturing that never quite jived for me. The effects always look almost painted in rather than as objects that exist in the space. Very distracting.
 
many speciel effects houses work on blockbuster movies. and we never know on which shots until they tell us.

for example the Iron man 3 suits were not done at ILM.

Ironman mk42 first scene --------Trixter
Ironman mk42 house attack ------Scanline
Ironman mk42 plane sequence ----DIgital Domain
IronPatriot pakistan --------------Luma pictures
IronPatriot air force one ----------WETA
Ironman suits in the final fight ----WETA

another example Man of Steel. we thought that WETA was doing the superman action shots. nope. WETA worked on the krypton cgi suits. superman and other cgi doubles were from MPC.

IMO Rhythm & Hues look was a creative choice from the studio and director.
 
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ILM has been fazed out in regards to Iron Man because it cheaper to go with other effects houses that are overseas or have outsourced overseas. That's why ILM has opened studios in Vancouver, London, and Singapore and they have also employing Base FX in China to work on their projects. Digital Domain and Rhythm & Hues were purchased by companies based in India and most of the work was sent there.

In my opinion the best work being done right now are the Moving Picture Company, Double Negative, and Framestore, and all three are based in London. They all fazed out ILM on the Harry Potter films.

I'm not sure about Weta at the moment, their work has been hit and miss on the Hobbit films.

ILM is getting the difficult and large scale films, but their work doesn't look as polished as before. Maybe its due to outsourcing to cheaper, less experienced, less talented artists?
 
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ILM has been fazed out in regards to Iron Man because it cheaper to go with other effects houses that are overseas or have outsourced overseas. That's why ILM has opened studios in Vancouver, London, and Singapore and they have also employing Base FX in China to work on their projects. Digital Domain and Rhythm & Hues were purchased by companies based in India and most of the work was sent there.

In my opinion the best work being done right now are the Moving Picture Company, Double Negative, and Framestore, and all three are based in London. They all fazed out ILM on the Harry Potter films.

I'm not sure about Weta at the moment, their work has been hit and miss on the Hobbit films.

ILM is getting the difficult and large scale films, but their work doesn't look as polished as before. Maybe its due to outsourcing to cheaper, less experienced, less talented artists?
its crazy isnt it? you give ILM the normal paycheck and they will give you the best effects that you can get. but NO. hollywood had to go full ******.

yes i think the problem are less experienced artist from india,....
 
many speciel effects houses work on blockbuster movies. and we never know on which shots until they tell us.

for example the Iron man 3 suits were not done at ILM.

Ironman mk42 first scene --------Trixter
Ironman mk42 house attack ------Scanline
Ironman mk42 plane sequence ----DIgital Domain
IronPatriot pakistan --------------Luma pictures
IronPatriot air force one ----------WETA
Ironman suits in the final fight ----WETA

another example Man of Steel. we thought that WETA was doing the superman action shots. nope. WETA worked on the krypton cgi suits. superman and other cgi doubles were from MPC.

IMO Rhythm & Hues look was a creative choice from the studio and director.

I'm talking about almost every movie they've done since 2006 or so. I really dislike their work.

They aren't as bad as Sony Imageworks though.



WETA continues to do fantastic work when they aren't creating shots for Peter Jackson, who changes his mind so often that finished shots have to be redone. Also it seems like he doesn't know how to light for using greenscreen, unless he's purposefully making his composited shots look like that.
 
Gotta say, I'm kind of shocked that so many people here either don't get this issue, or think it's not nearly as bad as it seems.

Let's see if I can explain it better...

The problem, at it's most simplified, is about money. VFX houses have to spend a LOT of time and money developing technology to keep up with and push the industry forward. As Hollywood demands more and more from VFX houses, the more time and money has to be spent making sure the ever-increasing needs can be spent. This typically comes directly from the VFX house's own pocket, so they're already seeing a financial loss to make sure they're prepped for projects they haven't even gotten yet. But this is to be expected - it's part of being a business. And like any business, they'll see returns on that investment, right?

Wrong.

Even if a studio has it's own VFX house (like Disney and Sony), they still need to hire additional houses to handle the work load, so countless VFX houses will bid on the project. In the eyes of the film studio, the cheaper you can do the work, the better. So they look around and see that all the domestic VFX studios are getting more "expensive".

"Well, we don't want to pay that!" Hollywood says. So they outsource and start to hire smaller, cheaper companies in other countries. And guess what? Not only are these sweatshop VFX houses cheaper by design, but there are TAX BREAKS and other nifty deals that save the film studio even MORE money! And many of these tax breaks and incentives are actually just loop holes and outright illegal, but I won't go into that right now.

So, let's go back to our domestic VFX houses...they see that they're being out-bid by these outsourced houses. They need to get projects to pay their bills and employees, so they have no choice but to lower their own bids because getting a small paycheck is better than no paycheck at all. Well, the film studios take advantage of this BIG TIME. Here's how:

  • FILM STUDIO wants 400 fx shots complete in 3 months.
  • VFX HOUSE says it'll cost $2,000 and will actually take 6 months to complete.
  • FILM STUDIO says, "No, 3 months and $1000 or we'll go else where." VFX HOUSE needs the project, so they agree.
  • VFX HOUSE has to hire on more employees to do 6 months of work in half the time.
  • FILM STUDIO adds 200 more shots and says "we need this sooner."
  • VFX HOUSE now has to do 600 shots in 2 months. So they have to work more hours and hire even more employees (never mind the added cost for additional tech, office space, utilities, etc).
In the end, the VFX HOUSE does 600 shots in 2 months, costing them $5,000. They still only get paid $1000, so the VFX house actually LOSES $4000. And what's worse is that the quality of the work will obviously be hurt to do this manhandling and abuse by the film studio, who turns around and uses that as an excuse to pay EVEN LESS the next time. It's a vicious circle, designed totally by the studios to spend as little as possible. VFX houses have to lay off people between every project just so they can scrape by until the next project. This isn't how it should be.

It's criminal and in many cases, qute literally. The VFX industry has time and time again gone to the government saying "this is wrong!" but guess what? The MPAA is the group that writes the laws allowing the studios to receive all these kick backs and tax breaks for outsourcing, and Hollywood donates an obscene amount of money to many political leaders' campaigns, so it goes without saying that the artists entreaties falls on deaf ears.

VFX houses have tried to work with the studios to find a way to balance things out...studios make all sorts of back end deals with directors, actors and crew where they get paid a small amount up front, but then get a cut of the profits...VFX houses have tried to broker deals where they get this same deal like everyone else, but the film studios refuse because they know they can simply outsource the work even more if the domestic VFX houses don't want to play ball.

These artists are a MASSIVE part of the movie making process and without any hyperbole, the majority of films over the last 30 years would have NEVER seen the 100s of millions in ticket sales, or even been made at all if it weren't for these artists. Yet Hollywood sees them as expendable - VFX houses are really the only part of the film making process that can be quickly and easily outsourced with the greatest amount of financial gain, so they aren't going to give that up.

As someone who works in this industry, I can accurately say that this is an incredible problem across the entire entertainment spectrum. This is equally prevalent in the television and video game industries; any place where a production company hires an art studio to create their product, the artists get bent over. More and more visual fx, animation and design houses are laying off employees and even shutting their doors completely because they're being grossly underpaid, used and abused. It's reaching a tipping point and if something doesn't change, we'll see the industry crumble on itself completely.
 
WETA continues to do fantastic work when they aren't creating shots for Peter Jackson, who changes his mind so often that finished shots have to be redone. Also it seems like he doesn't know how to light for using greenscreen, unless he's purposefully making his composited shots look like that.

Heh, like this?

Fellowship1.jpg


"Hobbits! There's tall people behind you! Why do you still have rim lighting?! Hobbits! Stahp!"
 
Maybe the major VFX companies could take a cue from Atomic Fiction and use cloud computing instead of render farms. Not saying it'd fix the major problems, but perhaps stem outsourcing and money loss?

http://atomicfiction.com/our-values/
 
I'm talking about almost every movie they've done since 2006 or so. I really dislike their work.

They aren't as bad as Sony Imageworks though.



WETA continues to do fantastic work when they aren't creating shots for Peter Jackson, who changes his mind so often that finished shots have to be redone. Also it seems like he doesn't know how to light for using greenscreen, unless he's purposefully making his composited shots look like that.
i know what you mean. i think its a style that hollywood likes inside the effects. i guess i am more wrong here than right.

why did they have to go? Life of Pi :csad:

about Peter Jackson. he is on purpose doing it like that. he likes this new style. to bad because it looks very bad.
 
Maybe the major VFX companies could take a cue from Atomic Fiction and use cloud computing instead of render farms. Not saying it'd fix the major problems, but perhaps stem outsourcing and money loss?

http://atomicfiction.com/our-values/
i see a problem with rendering on cloud. it can happen that you are sending projects through internet on the other side of the planet. is it safe?
 
Maybe the major VFX companies could take a cue from Atomic Fiction and use cloud computing instead of render farms. Not saying it'd fix the major problems, but perhaps stem outsourcing and money loss?

http://atomicfiction.com/our-values/
A lot of companies are trying to move to cloud computing, and even creative software companies like Adobe are adjusting their software and business models to support this. It's great in theory but is also a double-edged sword. Yes, this will allow for VFX houses to streamline workflows some and cut some costs associated with pre-cloud technology, which will help their internal costs, but 1) this won't affect their largest price tags: personal and hard/software development; and 2) outsource companies will have the same opportunities, making their already artificially cheap prices even lower.

Until the backroom dealings and outsource tax breaks are addressed, there really isn't anything that can be done (though I do like the idea of VFX houses evolving into their own film studios ala Pixar). Luckily, it seems the MPAA (which is responsible for the laws and subsidies that allow the massive tax breaks for outsourced contracts) might have shot themselves in the foot:

The MPAA recently submitted a law proposal that specifies that "digital goods should be considered imports and therefore subject to...stringent copyright protections". This is intended to combat digital piracy, but it looks like it can be used against them to stop the ridiculous tax breaks and subsidies born from outsourcing work.

...if as the MPAA insists, movies should be recognized as imports then so too should post-production work. That means visual effects work would be subject to the same subsidy-busting provisions which previously were primarily applied to physical goods like steel and lumber.

The visual effects workers are now in a position to use the big studios’ own arguments to compel the government to slap trade tariffs on those studios’ own productions in high-subsidy countries...this means the anti-subsidy laws are insulated from political interference, no matter how many friends in high places the MPAA has.

If visual effects workers can show the Commerce Department and the U.S. International Trade Commission that an import is benefiting from foreign subsidies and therefore illegally undercutting a domestic industry, the federal government is obligated to automatically slap a punitive tax on that import. Such a tax would in practice erase the extra profit margins the studios are gleaning from the foreign subsidies, thereby leveling the competitive playing field for American workers and eliminating the purely economic incentive for the studios to engage in mass offshoring.

...The workers can now simply cite the MPAA’s own legal case and echo the MPAA’s own call “to protect U.S. industries from unfair acts in importation.”
http://pando.com/2014/02/25/revenge...-weapon-in-their-fight-against-big-hollywood/
 
i see a problem with rendering on cloud. it can happen that you are sending projects through internet on the other side of the planet. is it safe?
It's basically a glorified version of telecommuting - working and transferring work from one computer to another - its a big reason why studios are even able to outsource in the first place.
 
I bet the industry's future goal is to eventually send all the work to China! From a business stand point it makes sense to a board of directors and to their shareholders. The mentality is why would you pay people in dollars when you can pay them in cents.
 
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I bet the industry's future goal is to eventually send all the work to China! From a business stand point it makes sense to a board of directors and to their shareholders. The mentality is why would you pay people in dollars when you can pay them in cents.

ILM does work with China's Base FX, which did some rendering on Pacific Rim. So even the big ones are resorting to outsourcing and such. (So far, the big one that hasn't outsourced its work has been WETA, which remains firmly entrenched in Wellington.)

I do think that ILM's work is still top-notch, even with some of the work farmed out to Singapore. The Avengers looked fine.
 
ILM does work with China's Base FX, which did some rendering on Pacific Rim. So even the big ones are resorting to outsourcing and such. (So far, the big one that hasn't outsourced its work has been WETA, which remains firmly entrenched in Wellington.)

I do think that ILM's work is still top-notch, even with some of the work farmed out to Singapore. The Avengers looked fine.

I've already posted that Base FX and ILM have an arrangement. Reguarding WETA, in a sense they fall into an outsourced company for the Los Angeles based movie industry due to the tax subsidies they get from the New Zealand government. As soon as China is ready and willing to take on the brunt of the industry's load the studios will drop the existing VFX houses at the drop of a hat for the more inexpensive houses/sweatshops in China.

The first film ILM outsourced on was Iron Man 2 in 2010. I've noticed their work hasn't been consistent since 2009. Their last strong work was Star Trek (2009) and Avatar (2009), before that Iron Man (2008) and Transformers (2007) and also Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End (2007).

With Avengers it had strong work but it wasn't as polished as their previous work prior to 2010. But to be fair it's their best work since then, it's extremely dynamic.

To be fair again, the Spock/Khan chase sequence in Into Darkness was pretty good and so was the chase train sequence in The Lone Ranger.
 
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i think everytime ILM has enough time,money and an experienced director (Verbinski and JJ ) they realese the best effects that you can get.
 
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Fascinating documentary. thanks for posting.
 
The first film ILM outsourced on was Iron Man 2 in 2010. I've noticed their work hasn't been consistent since 2009.

For me, I think their work is still top-notch. It's not as eye-popping, but still really good. Although I notice with some of the more recent films, like Star Trek: Into Darkness, ILM's credit in the end credit scroll omits the "San Francisco | Singapore" and just says "A Lucasfilm Company". I don't know if J.J. Abrams insisted on the work being done entirely in CA, or whether ILM did that deliberately to mask that.
 
this is a good example what is wrong in hollywood.
vQ4hPSB.gif


if you havent watched the documentary watch it. or you will have no idea what i am talking.

to explain very fast what it takes to get a cgi moving shot into a tv spot. a big team of at least 50 people had to model Optimus Prime,texture,animate,light,track footage,model ground around it and match,render,add smoke ,color correct,....
thats a lot of work to have a very ''unfinished '' shot in a tv spot. and 3 weeks later it looks very different.
they didnt finish the shot. they changed it. if you look at the face. they changed the chin,nose and some other parts. so what does this mean? this means that they didnt add a layer on top of the footage. they went back to zero. they started over from zero. thats a lot of time and money.

remember Bay made Pain & Gain. the last TF movie was in 2011. this means that they had the whole 2013 year for finishing Optimus Prime's face. but it was not enough. so in januar they had finished the superbowl shot of OP. it was realesed in februar. but in januar they started changing OP's face. thats a lot of money and time from the vfx company. because as we now know the studio doesnt pay more money for more work.

John Knoll( co creator of photoshop) knows what needs to be fixed.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/vfx-guru-john-knoll-limiting-677538
 
this is a good example what is wrong in hollywood.
vQ4hPSB.gif


if you havent watched the documentary watch it. or you will have no idea what i am talking.

to explain very fast what it takes to get a cgi moving shot into a tv spot. a big team of at least 50 people had to model Optimus Prime,texture,animate,light,track footage,model ground around it and match,render,add smoke ,color correct,....
thats a lot of work to have a very ''unfinished '' shot in a tv spot. and 3 weeks later it looks very different.
they didnt finish the shot. they changed it. if you look at the face. they changed the chin,nose and some other parts. so what does this mean? this means that they didnt add a layer on top of the footage. they went back to zero. they started over from zero. thats a lot of time and money.

remember Bay made Pain & Gain. the last TF movie was in 2011. this means that they had the whole 2013 year for finishing Optimus Prime's face. but it was not enough. so in januar they had finished the superbowl shot of OP. it was realesed in februar. but in januar they started changing OP's face. thats a lot of money and time from the vfx company. because as we now know the studio doesnt pay more money for more work.

John Knoll( co creator of photoshop) knows what needs to be fixed.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/vfx-guru-john-knoll-limiting-677538
Eff that. Every designer who knows a contract knows you limit revisions. You want more than three moderate revisions, you start paying. None of that "let's start from zero and I don't pay you any more!" s***.

To Hollywood, these poor artists are nothing more than non-sentient computer programs that churn out VFX. Sad.
 
http://www.thewrap.com/noah-vfx-company-look-effects-loses-money

rumor is that its the studios fault and that they are afraid to be blocked by hollywood studios if they tell the truth. afraid to burn bridges.

next week lets see how many vfx studios get destroyed. to bad that every big effects movie loses money. noone makes a profit. very funny hollywood.
 
VFX Studios really should be given a percentage of the profits from a movie. As an artist myself I cannot imagine working for a set price with no flexibility. I've had it happen where people want something done but they want it on their terms entirely, infinite revisions for $X. Imagine saying that to a builder when building your home - you'd be lucky not to get punched in the face.
 

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