Villains that should reform

[The Question]

Wynona Ryder was kleptomaniac and likely got a thrill from stealing stuff. Besides shop lifting carries a much lighter punishment than bank robbery. Again kleptomania would explain why someone like Catwoman was a criminal, not Trapster. Robert Blake commited a crime of passion, didn't make a career out of knocking off banks.

Bullseye is a criminal because he is a psychopath-sadist, that's what a lot of assissins and serial killers are in real life. He cares more about killing people than he does making money. Plus at least he has a ton of money and respect from the underworld. That makes more sense than Trapster, who contiues to be criminal despite being a total failure at it.

A lot of villains who created in the 50s and 60s and had dodegey motives, had their back story expanded in the 80s and 90s to give them a motive. after the "Obit for an Octopus" story from the early 90s, I can better understand why Octavious is a criminal. Likewise after Mr. Freeze was given the frozen the wife, we better understood why he is a criminal. Trapster was never given an expanded backstory, all we get is this:

Trapster: Ha, ha, ha! I'm the Trapster, I am a criminal who commits crimes because.... uh.... did I mention I'm the Trapster?

That just makes for a very lame and one dimensional villain. Frankly since Trapster adhesives have far more uses than Spidey's webbing, consdering they don't disolve in a hour. Also frankly I doubt Trapster is on power trip, he is considered a joke by everyone and all his "friends" in the super villain community (from Shocker to the Wizard) have turned against him and tried to kill him. Also Beetle once killed someone, but reformed and is now a member of the Thunderbolts, why can't Trapster do the same?

There a lot of godd mtovies for beiong a super villain: your too too evil, insane, psychopathic to do good (Green Goblin, Bullseye), your an idiot (Rhino and Electro), you suffered a tragic event that makes you villainious (Magneto being a Holocaust survivor) or you get a thrill out of being a criminal do it for that reason instead of profit (Catwoman, Flash Rogues). Trapster doesn't fit into any of those motives, so he comes across as a lame criminal with no motive.

I've said it many many times: He may have simply thought he wasn't good enough for anything but crime. You seem to under-estimate the power of low self esteem.

 

[The Overlord]

Norman Osborn hired him to kill a drug dealer and frame Spider-Man for it. Plus, he's been working as more of an enforcer/hitman than a thief as of late.



If memory serves, Jenkins got a government pardon. Those aren't easy to get.



Who says that he invented his adhesives? Maybe he just weaponized pre-existing chemicals.



Like I said, alot of really smart people who could be highly succesful end up being thieves, junkies, or gang members because they just don't think they're good enough to be anything but.

Im pretty sure in his origin story, it said that Trapster invented his adhesives by himself.

As for a governemnt pardon, Tony stark and the government are willing to cut deals with murderous psychopaths like Bullseye to hunt down the Anti Reg, and he kills innocent people all time. I'm sure Trapster who only killed a low life drug dealer, can use this cut a deal with Stark and the government.

Can you name person with an million dollar idea with low self esteem who used it for crime, instead of getting rich? Seriously how is dressing up in bad costume, getting abused and humilated supposed to make him fell better. At this point we are going from bad self esteem to masochism or something. he should be given a better motive or get out of the criminal game.

 

[The Overlord]

I've said it many many times: He may have simply thought he wasn't good enough for anything but crime. You seem to under-estimate the power of low self esteem.

Low self esteem is one thing, but considering he is still a villain after being treated like a joke, abused and humilated and having all his friends in the super villain community try to kill him that's going into masochism, not low self esteem. Most people with low self esteem are shy, withdrawn and have no desire for public humilation, like Trapster does. Seriously Trapster buying self help books and keeping to himself would make more sense than knocking over banks in a bad costume.

Seriously at least when they gave the low self esteem explaination to Electro you can couple that with the fact that he's idiot to expalin why he is criminal. With Trapster it doesn't make sense. He needs a better motive then "low self esteem" that's not cutting it or he should get out of the crime game.

 

[The Question]

As for a governemnt pardon, Tony stark and the government are willing to cut deals with murderous psychopaths like Bullseye to hunt down the Anti Reg, and he kills innocent people all time. I'm sure Trapster who only killed a low life drug dealer, can use this cut a deal with Stark and the government.

Yeah, but Bullseye is a highly skilled assassin who's worked for the government several times before. Trapster could work for the feds, but he wouldn't be pardoned. It would be a Dirt Dozen/Suicide Squad type of deal.

Can you name person with an million dollar idea with low self esteem who used it for crime, instead of getting rich? Seriously how is dressing up in bad costume, getting abused and humilated supposed to make him fell better. At this point we are going from bad self esteem to masochism or something. he should be given a better motive or get out of the criminal game.

It doesn't make him feel better. He just never thought he was good enough for anything besides crime.

 

[The Overlord]

I feel enough villains have "reformed" for now.

If other villains were to try it for a brief period then that's fine. Maybe Constrictor joins Shield for a few missions before deciding, "You know what? This just isn't me." And screws everyone over. Or maybe having some masterplan to screw everyone over to begin with. That's fine.

Or maybe, to give the villains more personality, they have brief moments of heroics. Like that Silver Surfer issue during the IG crossover where the world looked like it was going to end and Rhino released all the animals from the NYC zoo to give them one last moment of freedom. Okay the idea was a bit dumb, but we're talking about Rhino and it did reveal a sweat side.

I don't want to see Electro turn into a full-blown hero. However, if he's working for Hydra for a while and doing some dirty deed until they ask him to something that crosses a moral line for him. Let's say Max was okay with stealing some money here and there for the group, but when he's asked to hijack a school bus full of kids he puts his foot down and says no. From there he quits and tries to warn some heroes to stop the event. And if that doesn't work he deals with it himself.

Electro can still be shown as a villain, but not without a shread of humanity. Those brief moments of humanity can make for great stories. The full on reform idea seems to have run it's course in Thunderbolts. The first volume of it at least.

Electro is both an idiot with low self esteem problems, that's his motive for being a criminal.

But really can come up with a good reason for guys like Trapster and Stilt-Man who are smart enough to invent technology that would amke them millions in the business world, but use it knock off banks. What is their motive?

 

[The Question]

Low self esteem is one thing, but considering he is still a villain after being treated like a joke, abused and humilated and having all his friends in the super villain community try to kill him that's going into masochism, not low self esteem.

He can't not be a criminal now. He's a wanted murderer. He has to steal to survive. Besides, when have all of his friends tried to kill him? Seems to me that he's still on very friendly terms with Sandman and is regularly employed by The Wizard.

Most people with low self esteem are shy, withdrawn and have no desire for public humilation, like Trapster does. Seriously Trapster buying self help books and keeping to himself would make more sense than knocking over banks in a bad costume.

You really do under-estimate what a poor self image can do to a person. Lots of inteligent people turn to crime because they never thought they were anything better. And once they started down that road, there was no turning back.

Seriously at least when they gave the low self esteem explaination to Electro you can couple that with the fact that he's idiot to expalin why he is criminal. With Trapster it doesn't make sense. He needs a better motive then "low self esteem" that's not cutting it or he should get out of the crime game.

He can't "get out of the crime game." He's wanted by the law. There's no way he could just quit. He can't hold down a job, get a bank account, buy a car, or anything like that. Crime's all he has now.

But really can come up with a good reason for guys like Trapster and Stilt-Man who are smart enough to invent technology that would amke them millions in the business world, but use it knock off banks. What is their motive?

Stilt Man hasn't invented anything that would make him millions. Hell, he hasn't invented anything at all. He's good with machines, but all of his gear is stuff someone else invented that he cobbled together. And The Trapster hasn't ever invented anything that could be used as anything other than a weapon. He deals in three areas: Explosives, acids, and adhesives. He didn't invent any of his acids or explosives. He simply weaponized them. And even if he had invented his adhesives, who'd want to buy them. Welding and cement are both vastly more practical in construction.

 

[The Overlord]

Yeah, but Bullseye is a highly skilled assassin who's worked for the government several times before. Trapster could work for the feds, but he wouldn't be pardoned. It would be a Dirt Dozen/Suicide Squad type of deal.



It doesn't make him feel better. He just never thought he was good enough for anything besides crime.

Most people with low esteem do not look for personal abuse, unless they are battered wives and Trapster is not a battered wife. Usually when someone is a career and all their friends turn against them and try kill them, no self esteem or not, survival insticts take over and they get out. That's not low self esteem, that's masochism. I'm sorry, but this point the low self esteem arguement doesn't cut it.

Trapster could get a deal where he is working for the gov off the books as a researcher. Trapster could designs adhesives that revolutionize the engineering industry and even create adhesive weapons to non violently capture Anti reg heroes. I mean no one is going to notive if trapster is missing from prison. the governemnt would be foolish to allow a good resource like him to waste his talents and besides Trapster drawing a governemnt check would make for sense for him then constantly getting his butt kicked, ghaving his friends turn against him and try to kill him and having to worry about dropping the soap in the Ryker's prison shower.

 

[The Question]

Most people with low esteem do not look for personal abuse, unless they are battered wives and Trapster is not a battered wife.

He isn't looking for abuse. He's just sticking with the only thing he knows.

Usually when someone is a career and all their friends turn against them and try kill them,

All of his friends haven't turned against him. He's still on good terms with Sandman and is regularly employed by The Wizard.

no self esteem or not, survival insticts take over and they get out. That's not low self esteem, that's masochism. I'm sorry, but this point the low self esteem arguement doesn't cut it.

He can't "get out." He's a wanted criminal.

Trapster could get a deal where he is working for the gov off the books as a researcher.

No, he couldn't. There are alot of people smarter than him, and the authorities would probably be more interested in putting him in an orange jump suit than putting him in a white lab coat.

Trapster could designs adhesives that revolutionize the engineering industry

I highly doubt that. Welding and cement are both far more practical for construction than glue.

and even create adhesive weapons to non violently capture Anti reg heroes.

You really thing the government would give him a full pardon for that? They could just take his gear and recreate his weapons themselves.

I mean no one is going to notive if trapster is missing from prison.

Yes, they are. He's a convicted bank robber and killer.

the governemnt would be foolish to allow a good resource like him to waste his talents and besides Trapster drawing a governemnt check would make for sense for him then constantly getting his butt kicked, ghaving his friends turn against him and try to kill him and having to worry about dropping the soap in the Ryker's prison shower.

The feds would not pardon or pay him. The most he could hope for from them is a Dirty Dozen/Suicide Squad type of deal.

 

[The Overlord]

He can't not be a criminal now. He's a wanted murderer. He has to steal to survive. Besides, when have all of his friends tried to kill him? Seems to me that he's still on very friendly terms with Sandman and is regularly employed by The Wizard.



You really do under-estimate what a poor self image can do to a person. Lots of inteligent people turn to crime because they never thought they were anything better. And once they started down that road, there was no turning back.



He can't "get out of the crime game." He's wanted by the law. There's no way he could just quit. He can't hold down a job, get a bank account, buy a car, or anything like that. Crime's all he has now.

Trapster was once partenered with the Shocker, but then Osborn put a hit out on him and Shocker tried to kill him to collect. Also recently Wizard grew tired of Trapster's constant failures and tried to stick him in a time loop to get rid of him. That's two major allies, who tried to kill him in the last year. you think the Trapster would learn something from that.

So if Bill Gates had poor self esteem he would have used his computer skills to for crime instead of doing the obvious thing and making millions? I do not think so. the poor self esteem excuse doesn't cut as a motive, it makes him a very lame and one dimensional character.

As I expalined before there is an easy for Trapster to get out:

"Trapster could get a deal where he is working for the gov off the books as a researcher. Trapster could designs adhesives that revolutionize the engineering industry and even create adhesive weapons to non violently capture Anti reg heroes. I mean no one is going to notive if trapster is missing from prison. the governemnt would be foolish to allow a good resource like him to waste his talents and besides Trapster drawing a governemnt check would make for sense for him then constantly getting his butt kicked, ghaving his friends turn against him and try to kill him and having to worry about dropping the soap in the Ryker's prison shower."

 

[The Question]

Trapster was once partenered with the Shocker, but then Osborn put a hit out on him and Shocker tried to kill him to collect. Also recently Wizard grew tired of Trapster's constant failures and tried to stick him in a time loop to get rid of him. That's two major allies, who tried to kill him in the last year. you think the Trapster would learn something from that.

The part with The Shocker was horribly out of character. The Shocker doesn't kill people.

So if Bill Gates had poor self esteem he would have used his computer skills to for crime instead of doing the obvious thing and making millions? I do not think so. the poor self esteem excuse doesn't cut as a motive, it makes him a very lame and one dimensional character.

No, it doesn't. And I'm not talking about Bill Gates. I'm talking about Peter Petruski. I highly doubt he could ever make anywhere near Bill Gates levels of money legitimately.

"Trapster could get a deal where he is working for the gov off the books as a researcher. Trapster could designs adhesives that revolutionize the engineering industry and even create adhesive weapons to non violently capture Anti reg heroes. I mean no one is going to notive if trapster is missing from prison. the governemnt would be foolish to allow a good resource like him to waste his talents and besides Trapster drawing a governemnt check would make for sense for him then constantly getting his butt kicked, ghaving his friends turn against him and try to kill him and having to worry about dropping the soap in the Ryker's prison shower."

And, as I said, that wouldn't happen. The government would not pardon him in exchange for adhesive bombs. They could just take his gear and recreate it themselves. Again, the most he could hope for is to be forced into the service of the government as a convict.

 

[The Overlord]

The part with The Shocker was horribly out of character. The Shocker doesn't kill people.



No, it doesn't. And I'm not talking about Bill Gates. I'm talking about Peter Petruski. I highly doubt he could ever make anywhere near Bill Gates levels of money legitimately.



And, as I said, that wouldn't happen. The government would not pardon him in exchange for adhesive bombs. They could just take his gear and recreate it themselves. Again, the most he could hope for is to be forced into the service of the government as a convict.

It be OOC, but its still in canon, besides Shocker has tried to kill Spider-man in the past. It still dosesn't change the fact that two his of his most imprtant allies, Shocker and Wizard have tried to do away with him in the last little while, and yet I have seen no change in bahaviour from Trapster, shouldn't he paranoid or something. I'm seriously is he smart or stupid, they are never consistent with him. That's he is such a pointless character.

No, Trapster cannot make billions like Bill Gates, but he could make millions legitimately. Bill Gates developed the most popular software in the world, but trapster developed the best adhesive in the world, that's not worth billions, but it is worth millions. If you can develop the best product in the world, your rich, as long as the product has useful applications. Besides most people with low self esteem are shy and withdrawn, they do not do flashy things like wear bad costumes and knock over banks, that's why his character makes no sense. almost everyone one in the world, low self esteem or not, would use this idea to make millions, not be a criminal. he needs a better motive if you want to seel him as an interesting character.

Who said anything about a pardon, the governemnt could say the transfered to a new prison and stick him in a lab. The only person he killed was a low life drug dealer, who cares, the only people who are going to complain are gangsters, if they ever find out. Besides your ignoring the fact that he is best adhesive expert in the world. Back in the Silver age, guess who was the only one could develop a chemical that could dissolve zemo's adhesive X, it wasn't Iron man, it wasn't Giant Man, it was Trapster. With enough resources and team behind him, he could develop adhesives to trap many different types of heroes. No one is as good with adhesives then him, he is the best, so you can't get the same effect by taking his equipment.

 

[Kitsune]

Electro is both an idiot with low self esteem problems, that's his motive for being a criminal.

But really can come up with a good reason for guys like Trapster and Stilt-Man who are smart enough to invent technology that would amke them millions in the business world, but use it knock off banks. What is their motive?

Didn't Stiltman start trying to sell his technology but he got laughed at. A lot of villians started that way, including Beetle and Prowler.

 

[deemar325]

Total agreement. Marvel has some great villians, and more of them honestly than DC does, but Marvel seems more willing on relying on the same dozen faces over and over, and blurring the lines between good and evil. Just look at CIVIL WAR.

I would also question The Overlord's assertion about criminals. YES, the vast majority of them lacked education, skills, and oppurtunity. But not all. Think of all the millionare football players who've committed crimes (and that is a LONG list). Or quite a few well educated, seemingly successful men who later were exposed as pedophiles, serial killers or so forth. Dark inner desires can exist regardless of social oppurtunity, and can even defy logic. Sometimes applying reason to unreasonable acts is folly.

I'm with some of the others here that I am getting tired of seeing "reformed" supervillians. Creating new villians is a chore and amping up old ones beyond their stereotypical limitations is apparently even harder. New villians tend to fall by the wayside once their creators leave, and only a handful of writers have the balls to take B and C listers and revamp them, and even THOSE improvements can fall by the wayside when that writer isn't there (Electro is a good example; godly under the pen of some, wimpy under the pen of most). And many times when a new villian or a villian who hasn't made many appearences in years has been off camera but could have potential, they're merely trucked out to die, like Black Tarantula.

This isn't merely a Marvel problem; Conduit back in the 90's had potential for Superman, but he was naturally axed off outright before he could develop. It takes many appearences for villians to improve, and they should. If the villian never improves their game, and thus forces the hero to improve to match them, then the villian becomes pointless, just an excuse for action sequences. I think this to some extent has happened, which is why Marvel seems to believe that having "good vs. evil" stories is old-hat and is fixated on making bad guys good and good guys bad, and blurring the lines.

And THUNDERBOLTS, I'm sorry to say for fans of it, has taken any halfway decent, competant, or challenging villian who wasn't, say, one of the Top 12 A-List world megalomaniacs and just made them anti-heroes or superheroes and drained a good wealth of good opponents from superheroes. Fans of that series go, "Well, make new villians or amp old ones." That almost NEVER, EVER, EV-ER HAPPENS! Name me 10 villians in the past 3 years who have somehow been upgraded or rewritten into being decent (for longer than one writer's arc). You could find a couple, but not 10. Next I'll ask for 10 new villians from the past 3 years who were good or who have at least made B list. You also can't. For the reasons I stated above. Old villians remain stagnant or become THunderbolts, and new villians either suck or go into limbo once their creators leave.

I'd rather have competant villians than yet any more reformed anti-heroes. As much as I cared for "lethal protector" Venom in the 90's, it was not handled very well and the character has NEVER had the same appeal since.

This vaccuum of good adversaries is part of what leads to needing stories like CIVIL WAR to happen to create them in the shells of good heroes, IMO. This is really something I would address as an EIC. Like I would have a creator summit, have my editors and top writers, and hell some of the mid level writers, in a room, dish out a Handbook list of villians and go, "okay, what needs to improve here to make this fella/lady the next 'Purple Man'?" But what do I know? An EIC's real job entails, apparently, stoking the audience's ire for cheap sales and making grade school jokes regarding the competition.

God I love this guy!!^

HE is soooo on point about this whole thing it's insane!!! Insane!!!!

This is exactly what a good EIC would do, lordy we need Geoff Johns over at Marvel asap!! give him the f--kin Marvel Handbook and let him upgrade a slew of villians.

 

[3dman27]

a reformed batroc the leaper how'd that do?

 

[The Question]

It be OOC, but its still in canon, besides Shocker has tried to kill Spider-man in the past. It still dosesn't change the fact that two his of his most imprtant allies, Shocker and Wizard have tried to do away with him in the last little while, and yet I have seen no change in bahaviour from Trapster, shouldn't he paranoid or something. I'm seriously is he smart or stupid, they are never consistent with him. That's he is such a pointless character.

He's not a pointless character. Being betrayed once or twice shouldn't necessairili make you paranoid. Especialy since he's still on good terms with some people.

No, Trapster cannot make billions like Bill Gates, but he could make millions legitimately.

I really doubt that.

Bill Gates developed the most popular software in the world, but trapster developed the best adhesive in the world, that's not worth billions, but it is worth millions.

No, he didn't. Baron Zemo created the best adhesive in the world.

If you can develop the best product in the world, your rich, as long as the product has useful applications.

And none of his gear really has any practical aplications besides using them as weapons.

Besides most people with low self esteem are shy and withdrawn, they do not do flashy things like wear bad costumes and knock over banks, that's why his character makes no sense.

I really don't think that's true. Yes, some people with low self esteem are shy and withdrawn. Others are rowdy, violent, and are always trying to prove something. Trapster falls more into the latter.

almost everyone one in the world, low self esteem or not, would use this idea to make millions, not be a criminal. he needs a better motive if you want to seel him as an interesting character.

No, he doesn't. I really don't see how the concept of him not thinking he was good enough for anything besides crime doesn't register with you. And even if he has learned his lesson, he's a wanted criminal. There's no turning back.

Who said anything about a pardon, the governemnt could say the transfered to a new prison and stick him in a lab.

The government has plenty of scientists who they don't have to worry about escaping.

The only person he killed was a low life drug dealer, who cares, the only people who are going to complain are gangsters, if they ever find out.

The murder was a heavily publicized event because he framed Spider-Man for it. Everyone knows about it. And what do you mean "who cares?" He murdered someone in cold blood. For money. He's lucky he didn't get the death penalty.

Besides your ignoring the fact that he is best adhesive expert in the world. Back in the Silver age, guess who was the only one could develop a chemical that could dissolve zemo's adhesive X, it wasn't Iron man, it wasn't Giant Man, it was Trapster.

Yeah. Well after he became a wanted felon.

With enough resources and team behind him, he could develop adhesives to trap many different types of heroes. No one is as good with adhesives then him, he is the best, so you can't get the same effect by taking his equipment.

I really doubt that. Adhesives only do so much. And I'm sure his gear could be replicated by government scientists if they got their hands on it.

 

[Dread]

Government pardons for supervillians willing to become "agents" is hardly a difficult thing to get in the Marvel Universe. The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants all got that during their time in Freedom Force (and this was a roster of Mystique, Avalanche, Pyro, and Blob; all either killers, terrorists, and/or thieves who once tried to assassinate a senator; imagine Lee Harvey Oswald becoming an agent and you'll see what I mean). Puppet Master, Venom, Sabretooth, have all worked for the feds before and gotten protected status or pardons or whatever. It usually never took for long. So I wouldn't make much of it.

As for Trapster, when he started out in the 60's, he was a typical "Commie baddie" who went to sell secrets to the Russians (Reds), and got caught at it. Communism naturally provided a motivation for dozens of villians during the 60's. After that, he seemed motivated to avenge himself against the Human Torch (who defeated him), or because he made friends or alliances with various criminals at oppurtune times. His career wasn't all downward as he did win short victories over the Fan Four (with the Frightful Four), Spider-Man and Daredevil. True, they all avenged themselves, but that's what heroes do. Win. Duh. Only in modern times have the comic audience become so cynical, bitter, and clogged by "maturity" that they actually almost complain that villians lose. Villians lose in fiction because they often avoid justice or become successful in reality, and the point of a lot of fiction is to avoid reality for a short while and either be entertained, learn something, or get perspective from the writer.

Don't misunderstand me, though. Just because I don't want Trapster to just become "yet another generic T-Bolt anti-hero" doesn't mean that he can't grow as a character and as you have mentioned, he is a bit of a blank slate of a character, just waiting for some writer to give him a good motive and/or embellished backstory and propell him upwards like Capt. Cold or something. But superhero stories need supervillians and as I have said before, the Thunderbolts franchise has done a great job of sucking a lot of them from the hero rosters and thus forcing the same arch-foes to show up over and over and over and over again. New villians rarely are good and rarely last, and rare forgotten C and lower listers either become THunderbolts, stay the same and never improve, or die. The villian situation in Marvel has really become a rock and a hard place, and hopefully they confront it soon, so they won't have to turn Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic, or any other hero, into ruthless antagonists for a story.

Marvel bemoans the notion of a "supervillian out" for CIVIL WAR and treats such a plot angle as some plague, but think about it; if it was organized by some evil mastermind, wouldn't that be the best plot ever? Wouldn't that villian arise from suckitude to supergenius, like Zemo did with the Thunderbolts back in the 90's (trust me, in the mid 90's Zemo was hardly A-list and that twist at the first issue made a name for him)? And would that really be so bad? But I guess blurring the lines between good and bad is more "mature" these days.

 

[The Question]

Government pardons for supervillians willing to become "agents" is hardly a difficult thing to get in the Marvel Universe. The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants all got that during their time in Freedom Force (and this was a roster of Mystique, Avalanche, Pyro, and Blob; all either killers, terrorists, and/or thieves who once tried to assassinate a senator; imagine Lee Harvey Oswald becoming an agent and you'll see what I mean). Puppet Master, Venom, Sabretooth, have all worked for the feds before and gotten protected status or pardons or whatever. It usually never took for long. So I wouldn't make much of it.

But were they actually pardoned, or were they simply let out of prison on condition on working for the government, ala the Dirty Dozen?

Only in modern times have the comic audience become so cynical, bitter, and clogged by "maturity" that they actually almost complain that villians lose. Villians lose in fiction because they often avoid justice or become successful in reality, and the point of a lot of fiction is to avoid reality for a short while and either be entertained, learn something, or get perspective from the writer.

I really don't think it's because anyone's cynical or bitter. I just think some people want things to be less formulaic across the board.

Marvel bemoans the notion of a "supervillian out" for CIVIL WAR and treats such a plot angle as some plague, but think about it; if it was organized by some evil mastermind, wouldn't that be the best plot ever? Wouldn't that villian arise from suckitude to supergenius, like Zemo did with the Thunderbolts back in the 90's (trust me, in the mid 90's Zemo was hardly A-list and that twist at the first issue made a name for him)? And would that really be so bad?

Well, at this point, revealing that it was all some master plan would make very little sense. It would be a very sudden plot twist that takes things in an even less sensical direction. And really, at any point it would make little sense. A registration act, in of itself, doesn't benifet the criminal element too much. The fact that both sides of the arguement are completely overreacting isn't something anyone would have counted on, I think.

 

[The Overlord]

Government pardons for supervillians willing to become "agents" is hardly a difficult thing to get in the Marvel Universe. The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants all got that during their time in Freedom Force (and this was a roster of Mystique, Avalanche, Pyro, and Blob; all either killers, terrorists, and/or thieves who once tried to assassinate a senator; imagine Lee Harvey Oswald becoming an agent and you'll see what I mean). Puppet Master, Venom, Sabretooth, have all worked for the feds before and gotten protected status or pardons or whatever. It usually never took for long. So I wouldn't make much of it.

As for Trapster, when he started out in the 60's, he was a typical "Commie baddie" who went to sell secrets to the Russians (Reds), and got caught at it. Communism naturally provided a motivation for dozens of villians during the 60's. After that, he seemed motivated to avenge himself against the Human Torch (who defeated him), or because he made friends or alliances with various criminals at oppurtune times. His career wasn't all downward as he did win short victories over the Fan Four (with the Frightful Four), Spider-Man and Daredevil. True, they all avenged themselves, but that's what heroes do. Win. Duh. Only in modern times have the comic audience become so cynical, bitter, and clogged by "maturity" that they actually almost complain that villians lose. Villians lose in fiction because they often avoid justice or become successful in reality, and the point of a lot of fiction is to avoid reality for a short while and either be entertained, learn something, or get perspective from the writer.

Don't misunderstand me, though. Just because I don't want Trapster to just become "yet another generic T-Bolt anti-hero" doesn't mean that he can't grow as a character and as you have mentioned, he is a bit of a blank slate of a character, just waiting for some writer to give him a good motive and/or embellished backstory and propell him upwards like Capt. Cold or something. But superhero stories need supervillians and as I have said before, the Thunderbolts franchise has done a great job of sucking a lot of them from the hero rosters and thus forcing the same arch-foes to show up over and over and over and over again. New villians rarely are good and rarely last, and rare forgotten C and lower listers either become THunderbolts, stay the same and never improve, or die. The villian situation in Marvel has really become a rock and a hard place, and hopefully they confront it soon, so they won't have to turn Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic, or any other hero, into ruthless antagonists for a story.

Marvel bemoans the notion of a "supervillian out" for CIVIL WAR and treats such a plot angle as some plague, but think about it; if it was organized by some evil mastermind, wouldn't that be the best plot ever? Wouldn't that villian arise from suckitude to supergenius, like Zemo did with the Thunderbolts back in the 90's (trust me, in the mid 90's Zemo was hardly A-list and that twist at the first issue made a name for him)? And would that really be so bad? But I guess blurring the lines between good and bad is more "mature" these days.

What about Catman? He went from lame villain to anti hero in Villains United and most everyone agrees that was good move for the charater. I don't want Trapster to win, I just think if he is going to remain a criminal can we at least get a motive, an explaination on why used his adhesives for crime instead of legitimate profit. I don't think that's too much to ask.

 

[The Overlord]

He's not a pointless character. Being betrayed once or twice shouldn't necessairili make you paranoid. Especialy since he's still on good terms with some people.



I really doubt that.



No, he didn't. Baron Zemo created the best adhesive in the world.



And none of his gear really has any practical aplications besides using them as weapons.



I really don't think that's true. Yes, some people with low self esteem are shy and withdrawn. Others are rowdy, violent, and are always trying to prove something. Trapster falls more into the latter.



No, he doesn't. I really don't see how the concept of him not thinking he was good enough for anything besides crime doesn't register with you. And even if he has learned his lesson, he's a wanted criminal. There's no turning back.



The government has plenty of scientists who they don't have to worry about escaping.



The murder was a heavily publicized event because he framed Spider-Man for it. Everyone knows about it. And what do you mean "who cares?" He murdered someone in cold blood. For money. He's lucky he didn't get the death penalty.



Yeah. Well after he became a wanted felon.



I really doubt that. Adhesives only do so much. And I'm sure his gear could be replicated by government scientists if they got their hands on it.

He was betrayed by two of his clostest allies in the super villain community and one of his employers (Osborn). he would be stupid not be paranoid at this point. his only potenial ally left is sandman and since Sandman is evil again (for really stupid reasons) I don't see why he wouldn't screw over Trapster if he had anything to gain from it. People with low esteem may want to prove something, but usually give up after their peers reject them or try to kill them.

I said who cares because he killed a drug dealer, Punisher kills a hundred of those guys a year and is considered a hero by anay people in NYC, including the NYPD. Seriously if someone kill a drug dealer, people are usually going to cheer him rather than curse him, if he had killed a rapist he would be really popular.

Your telling me a guy who made the best adhesive in the world wouldn't be able to cash in? Seriously adhesives have a million uses around the home. Hell the guy who invented post it notes is likely rich and advesives are more useful than that.

Seriously though if they going to keep Trapster a criminal he should give him a better a motive then he has now, which is none. The low self esteem arguement is kinda shallow, doesn't explain everything. A lot of guys have low esteem, but if they come up with idea that will make money in the business world, they use it for that, not knocking over banks. The low self esteem arguement doesn't cut it, IMO, it isn't very plausible. Seriously low esteem is very crappy motive, unless its coupled with someone else. Give him a better motive or get rid of him. He is a one dimensional character now, he should be improved or ditched.

 

[The Question]

He was betrayed by two of his clostest allies in the super villain community and one of his employers (Osborn). he would be stupid not be paranoid at this point. his only potenial ally left is sandman and since Sandman is evil again (for really stupid reasons) I don't see why he wouldn't screw over Trapster if he had anything to gain from it. People with low esteem may want to prove something, but usually give up after their peers reject them or try to kill them.

I really don't see why he should be completely paranoid. Especially since The Wizard was never his friend, simply his boss. And like I said, The Shocker thing was horribly out of character for Herman.

I said who cares because he killed a drug dealer, Punisher kills a hundred of those guys a year and is considered a hero by anay people in NYC, including the NYPD.

That's not true at all. The NYPD hates The Punisher. As do most forms of law enforcement. And the average citizen thinks he's a dangerous psychopath.

Seriously if someone kill a drug dealer, people are usually going to cheer him rather than curse him, if he had killed a rapist he would be really popular.

Again, not true. If it were, why would Spider-Man have been under so much heat when he was framed for the murder?

Your telling me a guy who made the best adhesive in the world wouldn't be able to cash in?

But he didn't make the best adhesive in the world. Baron Zemo did. Petruski just knows alot about adhesives.

Seriously adhesives have a million uses around the home. Hell the guy who invented post it notes is likely rich and advesives are more useful than that.

And yet all of the chemicals Peter uses need to be deployed via high pressure hoses atatcked to his person, and when they harden they're rather bulky. They may not be practical for around the house usage.

Seriously though if they going to keep Trapster a criminal he should give him a better a motive then he has now, which is none. The low self esteem arguement is kinda shallow, doesn't explain everything. A lot of guys have low esteem, but if they come up with idea that will make money in the business world, they use it for that, not knocking over banks. The low self esteem arguement doesn't cut it, IMO, it isn't very plausible. Seriously low esteem is very crappy motive, unless its coupled with someone else. Give him a better motive or get rid of him. He is a one dimensional character now, he should be improved or ditched.

Petruski isn't alot of guys. Everyone reacts to things differently. And not everyone is well adjusted to react to things in a positive way. The self esteem thing does cut it. You're just completely under estimating what a poor self image can do to a person. Petruski obviously felt that he wasn't good enough to do anything but commit crimes. Maybe it was because no one ever respected him, he could never hold down a job, his parents mocked him, or maybe he just grew up in a rough part of town. In any event, when he made his gear, he decided that the only thing he would be able to do with it was crime. And now that he is a wanted criminal, there's no going back. I don't see the problem with that at all.

 

[The Overlord]

I really don't see why he should be completely paranoid. Especially since The Wizard was never his friend, simply his boss. And like I said, The Shocker thing was horribly out of character for Herman.



That's not true at all. The NYPD hates The Punisher. As do most forms of law enforcement. And the average citizen thinks he's a dangerous psychopath.



Again, not true. If it were, why would Spider-Man have been under so much heat when he was framed for the murder?



But he didn't make the best adhesive in the world. Baron Zemo did. Petruski just knows alot about adhesives.



And yet all of the chemicals Peter uses need to be deployed via high pressure hoses atatcked to his person, and when they harden they're rather bulky. They may not be practical for around the house usage.



Petruski isn't alot of guys. Everyone reacts to things differently. And not everyone is well adjusted to react to things in a positive way. The self esteem thing does cut it. You're just completely under estimating what a poor self image can do to a person. Petruski obviously felt that he wasn't good enough to do anything but commit crimes. Maybe it was because no one ever respected him, he could never hold down a job, his parents mocked him, or maybe he just grew up in a rough part of town. In any event, when he made his gear, he decided that the only thing he would be able to do with it was crime. And now that he is a wanted criminal, there's no going back. I don't see the problem with that at all.

You haven't read any of the recent punisher. In almost very arc of the Garth Ennis punisher from MK to MAX, its explained that cops approve of the job the Punisher does, it makes their help easier on the streets and so they don't but a lot of enegry in to finding him (in the first mK series, the anti Punisher task force was compromised solely of Dectective Soap the most ineffective officer in the NYPD). Plus a lot of ordinary citizens (like Spacer Dave) approve of the job Punisher does. In MU NYC, wasting a drug dealer will not make you unpopular, indeed it will have the opposite affect.

Besides Trapster at least trusted Shocker and Wizard, indeed he was sucking up to Wizard before he got trapped in that time loop. Trapster should be paranoid at this point.

Also what's to stop Trapster from refining his adhesives so they both a powerful and neat, which would be useful for around the house. seriously Trapster is best adhesive expert in thw world, who is not a dead Nazi war criminal, why couldn't he do not, when he first invented his adhesivess?

Low self esteem by itself is not interesting, at least for a villain. What's he going to do, whine and feel sorry for himself all the time or act like total spaz who has trying to gain approval from others? trapster has low self esteem, okay, why should I care? That's not interesting, that's annoying, that will just people be annoyed at Trapster, not like him, feel sorry for him or even hate him, they just be annoyed at him. Why not have some character development, have him get over this self esteem problem and give him a better motive for his crimes. self esteem problems do not make for interesting villains.

 

[The Question]

You haven't read any of the recent punisher. In almost very arc of the Garth Ennis punisher from MK to MAX, its explained that cops approve of the job the Punisher does, it makes their help easier on the streets and so they don't but a lot of enegry in to finding him (in the first mK series, the anti Punisher task force was compromised solely of Dectective Soap the most ineffective officer in the NYPD). Plus a lot of ordinary citizens (like Spacer Dave) approve of the job Punisher does. In MU NYC, wasting a drug dealer will not make you unpopular, indeed it will have the opposite affect.

That is complete bull****. There's no way in hell the NYPD or any police force (since Frank travels alot) would support the actions of someone who is essentially a gun toting serial killer.

Besides Trapster at least trusted Shocker and Wizard, indeed he was sucking up to Wizard before he got trapped in that time loop. Trapster should be paranoid at this point.

No, he shouldn't. People get stabbed in the back by people they trusted all the time. While some go paranoid, others simply stop trusting that particular person.

Also what's to stop Trapster from refining his adhesives so they both a powerful and neat, which would be useful for around the house. seriously Trapster is best adhesive expert in thw world, who is not a dead Nazi war criminal, why couldn't he do not, when he first invented his adhesivess?

Maybe he can't. Maybe his adhesives don't work that way.

Low self esteem by itself is not interesting, at least for a villain. What's he going to do, whine and feel sorry for himself all the time or act like total spaz who has trying to gain approval from others?

Of course not. It can be handled in many different ways.

trapster has low self esteem, okay, why should I care?

Because it's turned him into an underworld thug who hurts people to feel better about himself. I had an idea for a MAX series centering around a group of criminals that Petruski would be in. One of the storylines would be him trying to deal with his anger issues and violent tendancies that stem from his poor self image.

That's not interesting, that's annoying, that will just people be annoyed at Trapster, not like him, feel sorry for him or even hate him, they just be annoyed at him.

Why? Low self esteem doesn't mean he's going to be a whiny emo ***** who cuts himself. In Petruski's case, it makes him a morbidly depressed thug who hurts people to make himself feel better about himself.

Why not have some character development, have him get over this self esteem problem and give him a better motive for his crimes.

Why does he need a new motive? Why not just use the obvious reason for him to continue his criminal ways? He's in far too deep to get out now. There's already one very high profile murder he's wanted for and at least five others he's probably suspected for. Not to mention all the times he's tried to kill one of the world's top scientists and his family, and the fact that he recently tried to blow up a charity center in the middle of New York on behalf of the mob. No one's going to give him legitimate work at this point.

 

[The Overlord]

That is complete bull****. There's no way in hell the NYPD or any police force (since Frank travels alot) would support the actions of someone who is essentially a gun toting serial killer.



No, he shouldn't. People get stabbed in the back by people they trusted all the time. While some go paranoid, others simply stop trusting that particular person.



Maybe he can't. Maybe his adhesives don't work that way.



Of course not. It can be handled in many different ways.



Because it's turned him into an underworld thug who hurts people to feel better about himself. I had an idea for a MAX series centering around a group of criminals that Petruski would be in. One of the storylines would be him trying to deal with his anger issues and violent tendancies that stem from his poor self image.



Why? Low self esteem doesn't mean he's going to be a whiny emo ***** who cuts himself. In Petruski's case, it makes him a morbidly depressed thug who hurts people to make himself feel better about himself.



Why does he need a new motive? Why not just use the obvious reason for him to continue his criminal ways? He's in far too deep to get out now. There's already one very high profile murder he's wanted for and at least five others he's probably suspected for. Not to mention all the times he's tried to kill one of the world's top scientists and his family, and the fact that he recently tried to blow up a charity center in the middle of New York on behalf of the mob. No one's going to give him legitimate work at this point.

Well the NYPD does support Frank, why esle would they only send Dect. Soap to bring him in? Conisidering MU NYC is a million times more corrupt and dangerous than regular NYC it would make seense stuff like happens. Hell, I' ve heard of some darkhawk villains who were a cabal of police officers in NYC who wanted a create "hero" named Savage steel who would kill criminals and report to them. Marvel NYC, is not exactly the same as regular earth NYC.

Trapster has been stabbed in the back by many of his contacts in the criminal.

So Trapster can develop a chemical that can dissolve Adhesive X, but can't make his advesives workable for household chores? I find that hard to believe.

If Trapster wants to hurt people to counter his own poor self, why would he go after the FF, wouldn't he just go around and pick on people weaker then him? it makes no sense he would fight with heroes, after his track record and his low self esteem, he would want to avoid them so he wouldn't he his butt kicked again, not mess with them like he does. The character doesn't even make sense on that level. Besides who has hurt besides Jiimy Z, it seems like he is even very good at hurting anyone, so again, how is interesting when he's a total failure at everything. He's a failure as a thief, he's a failure as a hitman and his only motive his pathetic and he's pathetic. He's not even godd at being a bully, he's too stupid to realize a bully only picks on people who are weaker him. Seriously how many people associate low self esteem with the word villain, they associate other words: evil, insane, psychoapthic, honourable, conflicted, dashing, cunning, but not low self esteem. seriously if he's a failure at everything, even being a bully, why should I care about him?

 

[The Question]

Well the NYPD does support Frank, why esle would they only send Dect. Soap to bring him in? Conisidering MU NYC is a million times more corrupt and dangerous than regular NYC it would make seense stuff like happens. Hell, I' ve heard of some darkhawk villains who were a cabal of police officers in NYC who wanted a create "hero" named Savage steel who would kill criminals and report to them. Marvel NYC, is not exactly the same as regular earth NYC.

I still find it highly unlikely that any police department would support someone who's essentially a serial killer.

Trapster has been stabbed in the back by many of his contacts in the criminal.

And who would those be, besides the Wizard?

So Trapster can develop a chemical that can dissolve Adhesive X, but can't make his advesives workable for household chores? I find that hard to believe.

Maybe it's just impossible. Or, maybe he could, but the process would be too expensive to be practical.

If Trapster wants to hurt people to counter his own poor self, why would he go after the FF, wouldn't he just go around and pick on people weaker then him?

The Human Torch was the first guy to collar him. He wanted revenge. He's rarely atacked the FF since, besides a few times when he did wit with The Wizard out of a sense of loyalty to him. I doubt that would happen again.

it makes no sense he would fight with heroes, after his track record and his low self esteem, he would want to avoid them so he wouldn't he his butt kicked again, not mess with them like he does.

Maybe because he wants to prove himself? Besides, he's been a bit more low profile since his Frightful Four days.

The character doesn't even make sense on that level. Besides who has hurt besides Jiimy Z, it seems like he is even very good at hurting anyone, so again, how is interesting when he's a total failure at everything.

He killed five assassins sent after him by Norman Osborn in a few minutes by filling their windpipes with glue.

He's a failure as a thief, he's a failure as a hitman and his only motive his pathetic and he's pathetic.

Yes, he is pathetic. Why is that a bad thing character wise? That actually opens the door to some interesting character developement.

He's not even godd at being a bully, he's too stupid to realize a bully only picks on people who are weaker him.

Not if they're trying to prove themselves or get revenge. And, like I said, he's been alot more low profile as of late.

Seriously how many people associate low self esteem with the word villain, they associate other words: evil, insane, psychoapthic, honourable, conflicted, dashing, cunning, but not low self esteem.

I do. Not every villain has to be a complete success. I mean, that's actually what makes Petruski kind of deep. He's a failure at alot of things. He turns to crime because he doesn't see himself at being anything better and because he wants to get back at the world. He gets his ass kicked and gets arrested. He tris to get revenge, and fails. He vents his anger by hurting people, becoming a hitman. He eventually gets beaten again, and vents his furthur anger by hurting more people, thus sinking even furthur. That sounds like a pretty interesting character to me.

 

[Dread]

What about Catman? He went from lame villain to anti hero in Villains United and most everyone agrees that was good move for the charater. I don't want Trapster to win, I just think if he is going to remain a criminal can we at least get a motive, an explaination on why used his adhesives for crime instead of legitimate profit. I don't think that's too much to ask.

To be fair, DC plays the "make any villian who even begins to become cool or competant into an anti-hero" card a lot less frequently than Marvel does, especially since the SUICIDE SQUAD spent years on the shelf. They have a buttload of villians who have remained as such without flexing. However, Marvel's tend to be more interesting, a shame they aren't capitilized on more often lately. No, let's not have some grand supervillian plot, let's just have Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic ACT like some.