What if Tim Burton Continued with Batman Forever and Batman & Robin

[Ponyboy]

That's a valid point but whether he loved her or not is irrelevant. The point is that this man still has the need to be loved, and can love other people. He unfortunately finds it hard to let anyone close to him because of who he really is. I think with Selina he saw something instinctively in her and was immediately attracted... the fact that she was Catwoman immediately cemented that for him... for they truly were "the same." He was willing to rip his mask off in front of Shreck to prove what she meant to him... At least that's how I see it. He was a very romantic Batman eh?

 

[returntovoid]

Schumacher is the first director to put the focus primarily onto Batman in the movies.

I couldn't disagree more.

The whole storyline of Bruce dealing with the demons of his parents death

Burton depicted Bruce being consumed by his demons in Batman Returns after he had killed The Joker in B89, it's very clear in the beginning of BR when he's brooding far more than ever and is taking pleasure in killing criminals. Also he is rarely out in the public as Bruce but more as Batman, he's reluctant to go to the masquerade ball but decides to go only because Selina will be there.

He nearly gives out his secret identity few times, as if he can't keep up with his public facade.

Max: Selina, this is Bruce...Wayne.
Bruce: Yeah, we've met.
Selina: Have we?
Bruce: Oh, I'm sorry. You know what? I mistook me for somebody else.
Selina: You mean, "mistook me."
Bruce: I mistook me...yeah, yeah.

Bruce: "I told Vicki everything"
Selina: "And the truth frightened her"
Bruce: "Yes"

Selina: It's gonna be a hot time on the cold town tonight.
Bruce: You-you've got kind of a - kind of a dark side, don't you?
Selina: No darker than yours, Bruce.

Bruce: Well, I guess we're gonna find out. Course, I don't have a crime boss like Cobblepot in my corner, so it might...
Max: Crime boss? Shows what you know, Mr. to-the-manor-born-with-a-silver-spoon. Oswald is Gotham's new golden boy. If his parents hadn't eighty-sixed him, you two might've been bunkies at prep school!

turning to Chase for help in dealing with his emotional pain

Batman wanted to redeem himself by trying to stop Selina from killing Max Shrek for revenge to prevent the same thing that happened to himself after killing The Joker for revenge. He believed this could help get rid of his own inner demons. If this were not the case, he would've killed Shrek's ass by now.

seeing his pain mirrored in Dick Grayson

Bruce/Batman saw his pain as well as similar psychological issues mirrored in Selina/Catwoman.

the whole obsession Nygma had with Bruce, Two Face being obsessed with Batman etc. Everything was just revolving around the Bat.

Wanting to kill the Bat in an obsessive manner because he's a pain in the ass for their villainy was nothing new. Riddler believing he was Batsy in the Arkham cell was so badly done, it was like watching comedy that was making fun of a delusional loony. Not convincing at all.

That's a valid point but whether he loved her or not is irrelevant. The point is that this man still has the need to be loved, and can love other people. He unfortunately finds it hard to let anyone close to him because of who he really is. I think with Selina he saw something instinctively in her and was immediately attracted... the fact that she was Catwoman immediately cemented that for him... for they truly were "the same." He was willing to rip his mask off in front of Shreck to prove what she meant to him... At least that's how I see it. He was a very romantic Batman eh?

Exactly!

 

[Mister Meddle]

Technically Batman did not "kill the Joker for revenge". He attempted to but failed. The Joker's death was accidental when Batman tied his leg to the gargoyle so he wouldn't escape.

However, Batman killing the devil and the Bam Bam Bigelow look-alike (in Batman Returns) was more about Tim Burton trying to create interesting scenes rather than portraying Batman as a murderer. He didn't show any remorse so nothing really suggests he wanted to redeem himself by saving Selina. Just a loophole with the story (but it's still one of my favorite Batman films).

 

[returntovoid]

Technically Batman did not "kill the Joker for revenge"

He said to The Joker's face "I'm going to kill you" with such hunger for revenge.

When he finds out that he was the killer of his parents, his eyes get all blood-shot red.

 

[Ponyboy]

However, Batman killing the devil and the Bam Bam Bigelow look-alike (in Batman Returns) was more about Tim Burton trying to create interesting scenes rather than portraying Batman as a murderer.

Who says they died? You didn't see a burnt corpse, not to mention there was snow everywhere. I'm sure the guy suffered outrageous 3rd degree burns, though.

The strongman? I didn't see any blood n guts when he exploded.

 

[returntovoid]

Who says they died? You didn't see a burnt corpse, not to mention there was snow everywhere. I'm sure the guy suffered outrageous 3rd degree burns, though.

The strongman? I didn't see any blood n guts when he exploded.

Not this argument, again..........

 

[Ponyboy]

haha I was just being cheeky, didnt know it was an ongoing argument

 

[El Payaso]

Not this argument, again..........

Why not, nothing suggest that the devil man died. And he's right about all that snow.

 

[returntovoid]

Why not

The users that disagree with those who think nothing suggested devil suit man and strongman died will keep on arguing. There was a thread created by someone with that opinion and it turned very argumentative. I'm sure you remember, cause you were posting in that thread as well as Joker.

 

[The Joker]

I couldn't disagree more.

That's unfortunate for you because it's true. Schumacher was the first director to place emphasis of the story on Batman, and have other characters serve his story, instead of vice versa like in Burton's movies.

Bruce in Forever had to deal with:

- A person obsessed with his Bruce Wayne persona
- A person obsessed with his Batman persona
- A person who mirrored his own pain and wanted to follow his path in fighting crime by being his partner
- A person in love with his Batman persona
- Deal with his constant recurring images and nightmares of his inner pain and demons

Burton depicted Bruce being consumed by his demons in Batman Returns after he had killed The Joker in B89, it's very clear in the beginning of BR when he's brooding far more than ever and is taking pleasure in killing criminals.

Where is that clearly depicted? There's not even a mention or reference to the Joker or anything associated with him in Returns. Bruce's parents are not even mentioned in Returns either.

You're making a baseless conclusion on nothing more than Bruce sitting in his study in the dark at night.

Also he is rarely out in the public as Bruce but more as Batman, he's reluctant to go to the masquerade ball but decides to go only because Selina will be there.

Two things:

1. He was rarely seen at public events in Batman '89 either. Remember his place at the table of Dent's speech beside Gordon was vacant? Vicki and Knox didn't know what Bruce Wayne even looked like. Yeah, members of the press not knowing what one of Gotham's wealthiest men looks like. He was clearly not a man about town.
2. He didn't want to go to Max's ball because he hates Schreck.

He nearly gives out his secret identity few times, as if he can't keep up with his public facade.

Max: Selina, this is Bruce...Wayne.
Bruce: Yeah, we've met.
Selina: Have we?
Bruce: Oh, I'm sorry. You know what? I mistook me for somebody else.
Selina: You mean, "mistook me."
Bruce: I mistook me...yeah, yeah.

Bruce: "I told Vicki everything"
Selina: "And the truth frightened her"
Bruce: "Yes"

Selina: It's gonna be a hot time on the cold town tonight.
Bruce: You-you've got kind of a - kind of a dark side, don't you?
Selina: No darker than yours, Bruce.

Bruce: Well, I guess we're gonna find out. Course, I don't have a crime boss like Cobblepot in my corner, so it might...
Max: Crime boss? Shows what you know, Mr. to-the-manor-born-with-a-silver-spoon. Oswald is Gotham's new golden boy. If his parents hadn't eighty-sixed him, you two might've been bunkies at prep school!

How on earth does any of these conversations nearly let slip that he's Batman? Saying he mistook himself for someone else that Selina could have met could be ANYONE. He never referred to the context in which they met. Bruce never said "Yes" when Selina asked if the truth frightened Vicki. He said there was two truths. Asking Selina if she has a bit of a dark side....how does that nearly give away his Batman identity? Questioning Cobblepot's reputation, a stranger bird man freak who came fresh from the sewers....again how does this nearly give away that he's Batman?

None of these conversations came even close to letting his Batman identity slip out.

Batman wanted to redeem himself by trying to stop Selina from killing Max Shrek for revenge to prevent the same thing that happened to himself after killing The Joker for revenge. He believed this could help get rid of his own inner demons. If this were not the case, he would've killed Shrek's ass by now.

What on earth are you basing any of this on? He never shows an ounce of remorse for killing the Joker. The Joker is not even MENTIONED or mildly referenced in the whole movie! Neither is Batman feeling any kind of remorse or regret for killing him, or anyone else.

Batman already killed two people in Batman Returns. He also hypocritically says to her:

Selina: "The law doesn't apply to people like him or us"
Batman: "Wrong on both counts"

Well gee, Batman, if you think the law applies to you then maybe killing criminals, setting them on fire, shoving bombs down their pants etc is not exactly being law abiding. Another thing he says in that scene that made no sense was telling Max he was going to jail. Based on what charge and what evidence? I won't even mention his stupidity of unmasking in front of Max Schreck. How lucky for him that Selina ended up killing Schreck anyway.

The whole scene is written very silly and illogically. It's the great performance from Pfeiffer that makes it watchable.

Bruce/Batman saw his pain as well as similar psychological issues mirrored in Selina/Catwoman.

So he said, in the very last scene they have together. Hardly a huge exploration of the Batman character, like what Schumacher did with Kilmer's Batman in the Dick Grayson storyline in Forever, where they shared many scenes of much deeper discussion than Batman simply saying "We're the same, Selina. Split and wrecked down the center".

Wanting to kill the Bat in an obsessive manner because he's a pain in the ass for their villainy was nothing new.

That's not why he wanted to kill him. He blamed Batman for him being scarred. Two Face had no other criminal schemes beyond getting Batman. It consumed him. He only agreed to help the Riddler because Riddler promised to deliver the secret of Batman's identity.

Riddler believing he was Batsy in the Arkham cell was so badly done, it was like watching comedy that was making fun of a delusional loony. Not convincing at all.

Your dislike of Carey's performance doesn't change the fact that Riddler's character was all about being obsessed with Bruce Wayne. So I don't know why you even raised this point.

 

[Ponyboy]

The users that disagree with those who think nothing suggested devil suit man and strongman died will keep on arguing. There was a thread created by someone with that opinion and it turned very argumentative. I'm sure you remember, cause you were posting in that thread as well as Joker.

I remember... I was 13 or 14 when I saw that in the theatre (Batman Returns)... and I remember that scene and I wasn't shocked by it. I didnt think "OH NO! Batman murdered someone." In fact, I think I thought it was funny.

 

[The Joker]

It wasn't the teens that were freaked by it apparently. It was the kids. There was a huge backlash over the violence, sexual overtones, and darkness of Returns. Even McDonalds killed their Happy Meal tie in promotion with the movie because of it.

The power of soccor moms!

 

[Majik1387]

I seem to remember soccer moms being disgusted by the sexual nature of the film, not the violence.

 

[Ponyboy]

I don't know what the big surprise was... it was obvious (from the 1st film) that this was not really a Batman for kids.

 

[The Joker]

I seem to remember soccer moms being disgusted by the sexual nature of the film, not the violence.

No, the violence was an issue, too. Keaton even mentions it here in this interview:

 

[Ponyboy]

Sounds like a totally sensible guy. I'd say he was right... Batman & batman returns was probably a little too intense for 5/6 year olds. I remember my mother being hesitant over letting me see the '89 Batman (I was 11 at the time) because she heard it was "very dark." She gave in, in the end.

 

[The Joker]

Writer Daniel Waters even called Returns the franchise killer:

But the funniest reaction to me was Burt Ward (Robin of the 60's TV show fame) saying he didn't care for it and found it grossly too violent (maybe there wasn't enough POWS, BAMS, and BIFFS!):

These interviews are from the time when Batman Forever was released, so you can see how the general feeling was in the Batman franchise back then.

 

[Mister Meddle]

 

[Ponyboy]

Good Lord.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Writer Daniel Waters even called Returns the franchise killer:

And of course, we must look at the context in which all that was said. BF was in theaters and it was a financial hit. Also, at the time people liked the opposite of what they do now - they didnt like dark and serious movies, they wanted a goof fest like Forever. People hated Returns because it was too depressing, too dark, too downbeat and too serious. It wasnt a movie for kids and after the protest and big backlash about the sexuality and its dark nature, people were trying to steer away form it. Funny how a dark Batman movie was then called a franchise killer while now a dark Batman film is a gold and Schumacher's lollipop movies are considered as franchise killers

What counts is that when its all said and done, when times passes by and no promotional BS and party line is needed anymore, people can now see which movies really stood the test of time and have a quality and heart to them

 

[GothamAlleys]

How do you know that? Did he specify that somewhere?

He didnt have to. If he says the MOVIE is boring, he means movie, not characters because he said "movie". Boring most likely referrs to the story and pacing. Certainly not the character since he always speaks highly on his dark take on Batman and adopted the same disturbed character in to sequel as well

Sorry dude, but personally I think Burton showed even less interest in Batman in the sequel, and focused even more heavily on the villains, this time on two of them rather than one. Like with the Joker, Burton spent more time delving into the villains rather than Batman himself.

I think he split it equally. He had multiple stories going on, yet he did focus on Batman more this time. Batman was a shadowy, side figure in Batman, but here we get to see his heart more and his pain more, and hes more so the main character due to his tragic romance with Selina. In B89, Vicky and Knox were the main characters , we saw the story through their eyes. And of course there are those comments from Burton ion which he says that he was did the movie because the character was like him, an outsider who's closed in himself and also when he said that what he likes the most is the operatic tragedy and presence of the character

Regarding your remark about him wanting a normal life, I thought his wanting to be with Vicki and tell her his secret showed that he wanted a normal life with her.

He never, ever hinted that he would give up the cape for her or that she was a life changer. He kept ignoring her most of the time ("I cant think of that right now". And he was busy with something else, immersed in the case, while it was Alfred that kept pushing hi towards her and simply wanted him to tell her the truth. After all, she deserved it since he kept ditching her all the time. Yet with Selina, he was ready to start a normal life, he wanted it and was completely focused on her.
"We can go home...together. Selina...don't you see? We're the same. Split. Wrecked in the center". This is a big growth of character for him. This is the first tie he opened up. With Vicky, he was always dismissive of her and she was always secondary to his crime fighting. This is why they split, because she couldn't deal with his dual personality and life. But with Selina, it's the first time he thought of hanging up the cape and leading a semi-normal life. After all these years of internal pain and revenge driven life, he meets someone who is hurting as much as he does inside, and also as fractured, someone who shares the pain - someone who understands. This is exactly the same thing as with the Frankenstein monster - he was an outsider who was hurting and all he wanted was just one person in the world who understood him, one person like him, to talk to and to spend his life with. And Selina was this Bride of Frankenstein for Bruce.

Nice slap in the face to Vicki there. I was never entirely convinced he was in love with Selina. I think he just empathized with her more because she was a conflicted mask wearer, too.

I think the exact opposite because of what I just said and how he reacts to both onscreen. He ignores and puts Vicky aside whos constantly after him, yet he cant stop thinking about Selina and wants to have a life with her

Which is a shame to some degree, because for all his faults, Schumacher is the first director to put the focus primarily onto Batman in the movies.

No, hes not. He did well in that department because I bought Kilemr's Bat as someone in very deep depression, but Burton was the first one to focus on Batman's character. We cant forget this

Its in this movie when we first see Wayne as being in the shadows , keeping to himself, being hurt and disturbed inside

Im not saying the MOVIE revolved around him, Im saying there WAS a focus on Batman's character in the movie, and it was in B89 where it was first done, not in BF. And Returns too of course, with him finding a soulmate and thinking about different life etc

 

[returntovoid]

He didnt have to. If he says the MOVIE is boring, he means movie, not characters because he said "movie". Boring most likely referrs to the story and pacing. Certainly not the character since he always speaks highly on his dark take on Batman and adopted the same disturbed character in to sequel as well




I think he split it equally. He had multiple stories going on, yet he did focus on Batman more this time. Batman was a shadowy, side figure in Batman, but here we get to see his heart more and his pain more, and hes more so the main character due to his tragic romance with Selina. In B89, Vicky and Knox were the main characters , we saw the story through their eyes. And of course there are those comments from Burton ion which he says that he was did the movie because the character was like him, an outsider who's closed in himself and also when he said that what he likes the most is the operatic tragedy and presence of the character



He never, ever hinted that he would give up the cape for her or that she was a life changer. He kept ignoring her most of the time ("I cant think of that right now". And he was busy with something else, immersed in the case, while it was Alfred that kept pushing hi towards her and simply wanted him to tell her the truth. After all, she deserved it since he kept ditching her all the time. Yet with Selina, he was ready to start a normal life, he wanted it and was completely focused on her.
"We can go home...together. Selina...don't you see? We're the same. Split. Wrecked in the center". This is a big growth of character for him. This is the first tie he opened up. With Vicky, he was always dismissive of her and she was always secondary to his crime fighting. This is why they split, because she couldn't deal with his dual personality and life. But with Selina, it's the first time he thought of hanging up the cape and leading a semi-normal life. After all these years of internal pain and revenge driven life, he meets someone who is hurting as much as he does inside, and also as fractured, someone who shares the pain - someone who understands. This is exactly the same thing as with the Frankenstein monster - he was an outsider who was hurting and all he wanted was just one person in the world who understood him, one person like him, to talk to and to spend his life with. And Selina was this Bride of Frankenstein for Bruce.




I think the exact opposite because of what I just said and how he reacts to both onscreen. He ignores and puts Vicky aside whos constantly after him, yet he cant stop thinking about Selina and wants to have a life with her



No, hes not. He did well in that department because I bought Kilemr's Bat as someone in very deep depression, but Burton was the first one to focus on Batman's character. We cant forget this

Its in this movie when we first see Wayne as being in the shadows , keeping to himself, being hurt and disturbed inside

Im not saying the MOVIE revolved around him, Im saying there WAS a focus on Batman's character in the movie, and it was in B89 where it was first done, not in BF. And Returns too of course, with him finding a soulmate and thinking about different life etc

Exactly!

 

[returntovoid]

- A person obsessed with his Bruce Wayne persona
- A person obsessed with his Batman persona

This all was very badly done and it couldn't be taken seriously.

- A person who mirrored his own pain

In Returns, Selina mirrored Batman/Bruce Wayne's pain.

- A person in love with his Batman persona

Chase Meridian didn't seem so in love with Batman, if anything it was just lust or shallow love. She broke up with him without shedding a tear, neither was he so affected.

When Selina was rejecting him at the end of Returns, she had burst into tears and showed rapid violent mood swings because she didn't want to reject him but she rejects him because of her hunger for revenge against Max Shrek and her self-destruction. Batman was also sad. Then at last scene in his car, he's frowning like anything and feeling bad about losing her which was all conveyed without dialogue because Burton is influenced by German-expressionism cinema.

- Deal with his constant recurring images and nightmares of his inner pain and demons

It was just his parents death haunting him, nothing new about that.

In B89, the thought of his parents left him in so much pain that he was left speechless and moody as well as this headache-type stress frown expression. Not everyone whines to show psychological pain. Batman is a quiet/tough character, his emotional pain and trauma is bottled within him.

There was nothing else, even if there was more then it was badly done.

What on earth are you basing any of this on? He never shows an ounce of remorse for killing the Joker. The Joker is not even MENTIONED or mildly referenced in the whole movie! Neither is Batman feeling any kind of remorse or regret for killing him, or anyone else.

It's an obvious transition from the first film of seeing Batman consumed by the monster within him. Burton doesn't explain every detail clearly like Nolan does. He leaves it to the viewer to understand it rather than explaining too much through the film. Even if he didn't feel remorse for killing The Joker. Murdering for revenge without remorse nonetheless caused revenge to eat him up.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Im not saying the MOVIE revolved around him, Im saying there WAS a focus on Batman's character in the movie, and it was in B89 where it was first done, not in BF. And Returns too of course, with him finding a soulmate and thinking about different life etc

Yeah, but that's what Joker is saying, you are just agreeing with him here, he's not saying there wasn't a focus on BW/BM in the 1st two movies, he's saying that, in your words, BF was the first time the movie revolved around him, and he listed the reasons why. He said 'Schumacher is the first director to put the focus primarily onto Batman in the movies.', emphasis on the word 'primarily', just another of saying what you are saying.
And I also agree with him, that's part of the reason why I enjoy BF more than the Burton films.

 

[The Joker]

This all was very badly done and it couldn't be taken seriously.

That's subjective. Batman Forever is not deemed anywhere near as bad as Batman and Robin, and the main reason for that is down to Batman's story.

In fact, the only things Forever really gets criticized for is the neon Gotham, and the campy portrayal of Two Face.

In Returns, Selina mirrored Batman/Bruce Wayne's pain.

You said that already. This wasn't even touched upon until the final scene.

Chase Meridian didn't seem so in love with Batman, if anything it was just lust or shallow love. She broke up with him without shedding a tear, neither was he so affected.

That's not the point at all, and you know it. The fact is there was a character, who was in love/obsessed with his Batman persona from a romantic perspective. A character who then falls for his Bruce Wayne side.

It was a great dichotomy there, and most importantly, it was all about Batman, not Chase. Whereas with Selina, it was all about her and her conflicts, not Batman.

When Selina was rejecting him at the end of Returns, she had burst into tears and showed rapid violent mood swings because she didn't want to reject him but she rejects him because of her hunger for revenge against Max Shrek and her self-destruction. Batman was also sad. Then at last scene in his car, he's frowning like anything and feeling bad about losing her which was all conveyed without dialogue because Burton is influenced by German-expressionism cinema.

Selina was shedding tears for her own pain. "I just couldn't live with myself". It was all about her, not Batman. Batman is even shot unconscious, so Selina can have the limelight and deal with Shreck. It was never about Batman. It was about Selina.

Wow, Bruce looked sad because he lost Selina. Of course he did. His heart is not made of stone. He felt sorry for her, and empathized with her.

That doesn't equate to him being in love.

It was just his parents death haunting him, nothing new about that.

Of course it was something new. How many scenes did you see of him being haunted by images of his parents funeral, running through the rain with his father's journal, and falling into a hole and being terrified by a giant bat coming towards him in Burton's movies?

In B89, the thought of his parents left him in so much pain that he was left speechless and moody as well as this headache-type stress frown expression. Not everyone whines to show psychological pain. Batman is a quiet/tough character, his emotional pain and trauma is bottled within him.

Batman didn't whine in Forever either. In B'89, the only reason we saw the death of his parents is because the Joker was the one who killed them. It was all tied to the villain.

In Batman Forever, Bruce's emotional pain is explored because it serves him as a character, and not the villains or anyone else.

There was nothing else, even if there was more then it was badly done.

So you keep saying with elaborating. What exactly did you find so badly done about Bruce's emotional conflicts in Forever? Be very specific, please.

It's an obvious transition from the first film of seeing Batman consumed by the monster within him.

Again you keep repeating the same thing without anything to back up this claim. Where was it so obvious, because I didn't see it. Show me exactly what I'm missing, please.

Quote me line, or any kind of vague reference that shows Batman was feeling remorseful for kill the Joker or any of the other lives he'd taken. If it's as obvious as you keep claiming, then it should be a piece of cake for you to show me.

Burton doesn't explain every detail clearly like Nolan does. He leaves it to the viewer to understand it rather than explaining too much through the film.

Nobody is asking for every single detail. Just some detail. There is absolutely no discussion or references to the Joker, Bruce's parents, or Batman taking anyone's lives and feeling regret over it.

You keep saying it's obvious. I'm telling you that's BS. It's not addressed at all in Returns.

Even if he didn't feel remorse for killing The Joker. Murdering for revenge without remorse nonetheless caused revenge to eat him up.

Again, where is this pain shown? Where is it hinted at that murdering for revenge is eating him up?

Stop making these blanket statements without referencing where they're shown in the movie.