What if Tim Burton Continued with Batman Forever and Batman & Robin

[Majik1387]

Does every white person you know have the same shade of white skin?

 

[Travesty]

Does every white person you know have the same shade of white skin?

That's not the question I originally asked. You made it out that Harvey was tanned in BTAS, and I said, if he was a white guy who needed to stay tan, then he needed to keep that up in his Two-Face persona. So are you now saying that you have dark skinned white friends who don't need to keep up a tanhuh, or are you saying you think that Harvey had a tan in BTAS?

 

[Majik1387]

That's not the question I originally asked. You made it out that Harvey was tanned in BTAS, and I said, if he was a white guy who needed to stay tan, then he needed to keep that up in his Two-Face persona. So are you now saying that you have dark skinned white friends who don't need to keep up a tan(), or are you saying you think that Harvey had a tan in BTAS?

Yes to this.

 

[Travesty]

Yes to this.

So aren't those friends not actually white? Maybe mixed? Because that statement doesn't make sense to me.

Every white friend I have, even the ones who can tan darker than others, are still white at the end of the day. If it's winter, they turn white. If you consistently have dark skin(without tanning), I don't think you are white....but maybe that's just me?

I think he's either mixed or just black, either of which, I have no problem with. Eckhart had blond hair, which wasn't what we see in the comics, and I have no problem with it. Billy Dee is obviously black in B89, and again, I have no problem with it. Seeing as how much BTAS was influenced by B89, I don't see why it's out of the question why Harvey in BTAS is a black dude.

 

[GothamAlleys]

I dont see why such outrage when someone says that Dent wasnt white caucasian in BTAS. Its not a movie, its a cartoon, so the tan thing , especially since one side of his tan was always darker as well, is really stretching it. And actually the skin tone was the last thing that made me personally think hes of mixed ethnicity, its his hair, hairline and lips and the whole appearance.

 

[akfj]

So aren't those friends not actually white? Maybe mixed? Because that statement doesn't make sense to me.

It's called an olive complexion, a characteristic of Mediterraneans.

 

[Milu]

No question hence why he was cast it's a shame Billy Dee wasn't in Returns.

Especially a shame considering he was one of us. He KNEW Dent was gonna become Two-Face sooner or later, but he never got the chance to play him.

 

[ALP]

Agreed with James and Trav. Considering BTAS was quite influenced by Burton's films, I find it likely Harv was meant to be a brown skin person.

 

[The Joker]

Apparently Bruce Timm partly based Harvey Dent of the 1930's star, Ralph Bellamy, who was Caucasian. There's no mention in this book of Billy Dee Williams influencing the design of Harvey Dent in BTAS.

 

[El Payaso]

I remember Bellamy and Timm's Two-Face barely looks like him, if anything.

 

[GothamAlleys]

I know about Bellamy, but its possble and very likely as we see that it didnt make the final version. As you can even see in that concept drawing, he looks COMPLETELY different than the BTAS Dent. And again, just look at this and tell me this is a white guy

 

[The Joker]

I know about Bellamy, but its possble and very likely as we see that it didnt make the final version.

That's not the picture it's referring to. It's talking about the final version on the OPPOSITE page, which is this pic:

All this is taken from this book, by Paul Dini and Chipp Kidd, which covers everything about BTAS, and how they came up with the characters, and their designs:

For example, here they say that Warner Bros forced them to adapt the design of DeVito's Penguin. The same with Selina Kyle:

When they showed the redesign sketches for TNBA, they say Penguin is freed from the constraints of Batman Returns:

There's no mention of Harvey Dent being black, or being based off Billy Dee Williams in the book.

 

[GothamAlleys]

I know, I read parts of that book, but since Dent is obviously of a mixed race in TAS I think what happened was that yes, they based him on Bellamy, but also mixed tinted his race a little, possibly as a nod to the Burtonworld which they adopted. Or perhaps simply due to weird animation Dent came out looking half black, its all speculation of course, but due to Dent' look in the series I think theres a room for debate. Btw, thanks for the scans, I could get them since I was just reading this book that belonged to someone else and didnt have a chance or time to scan any of it

 

[Travesty]

Ha, I never realized that Tim Burton made a cameo in BTAS.

In the beginning of the episode called "Off Balance", Batman meets an informant named Twitch on the tower of the statue of Liberty. The informant has black hair, a long face, and has been confirmed by the producers to be "Tim Burton"

 

[Two-Face]

Cool Didn't know that. Didn't BTAS producers created a character called "Joel" too? What episode was that? I can't remember...

 

[GothamAlleys]

Cool Didn't know that. Didn't BTAS producers created a character called "Joel" too? What episode was that? I can't remember...

Joel Schumacher reference was in Vol. 4 episode # 19 "Legends of the Dark Knight". About 9 minutes into the episode, a group of kids discuss Batman and a longhaired kid named "Joel" joins the discussion, saying how he loves the "tight rubber armour" and the "flash car that drives up walls". "Joel" stands beneath a store sign that reads "Shoemaker".

 

[Travesty]

Joel Schumacher reference was in Vol. 4 episode # 19 "Legends of the Dark Knight". About 9 minutes into the episode, a group of kids discuss Batman and a longhaired kid named "Joel" joins the discussion, saying how he loves the "tight rubber armour" and the "flash car that drives up walls". "Joel" stands beneath a store sign that reads "Shoemaker".

Yeah, I caught that one, but never knew about Burton, until I was looking up some BTAS Burton influences. Gotta love BTAS! I wonder what they would have done with Nolan, if the series was still around?

Come back BTAS!

 

[The Joker]

I know, I read parts of that book, but since Dent is obviously of a mixed race in TAS I think what happened was that yes, they based him on Bellamy, but also mixed tinted his race a little, possibly as a nod to the Burtonworld which they adopted. Or perhaps simply due to weird animation Dent came out looking half black, its all speculation of course, but due to Dent' look in the series I think theres a room for debate.

Honestly I've nothing against a mixed race Dent. It's just prior to hearing these whispers that some people thought he was black, or mixed race, it had never crossed my mind. Some Caucasian characters in the show looked a little darker than others. But they were still Caucasian. I think if there was some Burton influence there, it would have been mentioned, like with Penguin and Catwoman.

Cest la vie.

Btw, thanks for the scans, I could get them since I was just reading this book that belonged to someone else and didnt have a chance or time to scan any of it

You're welcome. Feel free to use them in your blogs if you like.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Awesome Mr Joker. thanks. "Love that Joker"

 

[Travesty]

Honestly I've nothing against a mixed race Dent. It's just prior to hearing these whispers that some people thought he was black, or mixed race, it had never crossed my mind. Some Caucasian characters in the show looked a little darker than others. But they were still Caucasian. I think if there was some Burton influence there, it would have been mentioned, like with Penguin and Catwoman.

While Batman, Penguin, and Catwoman have been cited as being a direct influence of Burton movies, I thought it was generally obvious that most of the other characters and the entire "world" was a influence from Burton. Even the creators have said as much:

Eric Radomski: The previous incarnations of Batman I'd seen growing up, the Filmation animated version, that series they did with Adam West, they were all just a bunch of goofs. They were dopey versions of a character that could be really strong and dramatic, and when I saw Tim Burton's movie, I thought that was a good way of looking at this character.(...) Literally the first piece that I did [on BTAS] was lights of a city reflected on a wet pavement, and that was also inspired by the drama of Burton's movie. (Animation World Magazine)


Bruce Timm: Thank God for the Tim Burton movie because it was so extremely darker than anybody had seen Batman before in any kind of mass media (Wizard 2006)
But we were actually quite lucky, when that show was being developed we were coming off the heels of the Tim Burton Batman films, which were very dark in tone. (TMT 2010)

Paul Dini: When Tim Burton's Batman came out, that was the way to go (animationarena.com)
Nicholson looks phenomenal and scary and the suit looks good and the darkness and the world I was thinking like wow, this rocks (Anthology)
Another thing that transitioned form the Tim Burton's movies was Batman's character - as in the movie, he's someone who stays in the shadows and keeps to himself

Paul Dini: The thought process on Batman was great, here he's a character that doesn't talk much, which is as it should be. I thought the more you can tell stories like that, the better the show's gonna be(Batman Legacy Continues 2004)

You can go here, and see even more direct influences.

 

[GothamAlleys]

The best source is the audio track from Leather Wings episode, they specifically talk about taking Burton's world there and its timelessness, unfortunately I dont have any transcripts anywhere. Perhaps there are more quotes in the book but its written by Dini who is known to gradually throughout the years minimalize or try to bury the influence of Burtons movies for some reason. For example, to this day ever since 92 Timm says that Pfeiffer was a perfect catwoman and he enjoyed her very much in that role, so he mightve simply include a blonde Selina because he either 1) liked the BR Catwoman so much or b) wanted to go back to roots where Selina was a blonde occasionally in the Golden Age but Dini he never mentioned that. Also, Dini was one of the writers, but it was Timm and Radomski who were the brains behind all this and both of them to this day cant stop praising Burton's movies and continue to acknowledge its influence on the show. Again, check out the commentary on DVD those who have it

Im pretty sure Joker knows about BTAs emulating Burton's world and drawing a lot from it, I think he was just referring to Dent NOT being confirmed to be influenced by Williams

 

[Travesty]

Im pretty sure Joker knows about BTAs emulating Burton's world and drawing a lot from it, I think he was just referring to Dent NOT being confirmed to be influenced by Williams

Oh, I'm sure he does, but my point was just because something wasn't mentioned to be an influence( the grapple gun, Joker, Batmobile, Dent, etc) doesn't mean it never was.

 

[Matt.S99]

Anyone have any pictures of any concepts of catwoman from the animated series?

 

[GothamAlleys]

I dont but the funny thing is that she looked much more like the Returns version in New Adventures than in the first series

 

[Two-Face]

Joel Schumacher reference was in Vol. 4 episode # 19 "Legends of the Dark Knight". About 9 minutes into the episode, a group of kids discuss Batman and a longhaired kid named "Joel" joins the discussion, saying how he loves the "tight rubber armour" and the "flash car that drives up walls". "Joel" stands beneath a store sign that reads "Shoemaker".

Thanks.