What is worse, B&R or SMIV?

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Please see them, both of them were

 

[david icke]

That unfortuantly was part of the deleted scenes. After NM kidnaps Lacey...he takes her back to Luthor's penthouse...NM flies off to get something (don't remember what) and Superman shows up, picks up Lacey, and says something about setting a trap for NM at the Planet.

When the 4 movies were originally released on DVD, they didn't have these extras....the later releases had extras for II, III, and IV.

ah, ok, cheers. Yeah, I bought the vanilla dvd boxset just for III and IV, I was going to wait for the SE, but, just couldn't wait to see them again.
Now, I just kind of begrudge paying money out for them again.

and I haven't seen that critic's reviews of the two movies, I saw his review on Howard the Duck though , which was pretty good, I'll watch these later on, cheers.

 

[Rumpy Bulge Dubz]

B&R > SM4

though they're both pretty freaking horrible

 

[DieSmiling]

Superman IV is worse.

Both are awful if you attempt to take them seriously

B&R was never meant to be taken seriously. It's still a terrible movie, but it can be watched for laughs. Or as a drinking game. Take a shot every time Freeze makes an ice pun.

 

[Brian Braddock]

Batman & Robin is the worst imo. I mean, at least Superman IV had the right intentions but was hampered by mediocre production talent and a really, really low budget. I still dig that they tried to give us a real superfight like you see in the comics, no matter how poorly executed it all was.

Whereas B&R had none of these handicaps - all of the things present within the movie that make it bad were intentional and conscious choices made by the filmakers and talent.

 

[david icke]

Batman & Robin is the worst imo. I mean, at least Superman IV had the right intentions but was hampered by mediocre production talent and a really, really low budget. I still dig that they tried to give us a real superfight like you see in the comics, no matter how poorly executed it all was.

Whereas B&R had none of these handicaps - all of the things present within the movie that make it bad were intentional and conscious choices made by the filmakers and talent.

OK, but not all of Superman IV's problems were because of budget, they made crappy creative decisions just because they were lazy and didn't care or respect the type of movie it was. It has the attitude of 'they'll believe a man can fly... so they'll believe a normal person can breathe and survive in outer space, that his heat vision can fire through walls without affecting it, that Lois Lane can fly in mid air on her own, that we can leave out scenes and have continuity gaffs that don't make sense, that we can have terrible dialoge.'

It tried for about the first 15 mins to give us a story that had some weight, but then it just degenerated into terrible hero vs villan stuff, so I wouldn't say that was trying at all.
There's about as much time spent on the serious drama in B&R, concerning Alfred and Bruce.

That's why I think it's not so cut and dried, they both suffer from the same problems, and have the same level of pros to an extent as well.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Batman & Robin is the worst imo. I mean, at least Superman IV had the right intentions but was hampered by mediocre production talent and a really, really low budget. I still dig that they tried to give us a real superfight like you see in the comics, no matter how poorly executed it all was.

Whereas B&R had none of these handicaps - all of the things present within the movie that make it bad were intentional and conscious choices made by the filmakers and talent.

You call that trying? Superman IV was hampered by filmmakers and talent. Even Reeve didn't care anymore. He only did SMIV to get a film of his greenlighted. They didn't even have the right intentions. They wanted to bank in on the Superman franchise.

SMIV was a much lazier film and much more untolerable to watch. Its true that creative decision in B&R are much worse, and I can't stand to watch that either. But B&R was anything but lazy. They tried to make a campy Batman film, and only half succeeded with that, maybe even less. Schumacher was still successful with his vision, no matter how crappy it was.

Its still better than what was done with Superman IV, which failed on pretty much every ground.

Even if you try to make fun of Superman IV it's not fun to do. At least you can laugh at B&R for being so terrible.

 

[Mace Dolex]

Superman 4 with it's short running time and having Christopher Reeve is infinitely better I think since I saw it as a kid I have a soft spot for it but even then I could tell the movie wasn't good (cheap SFX, Lacey breathing in space).

Batman & Robin is just cringeworthy awful from the first 10 minutes of mindless fighting with the hockey team from hell, to the skateboots, Arnold's bad puns, overblown SFX and George Clooney acting as himself.

 

[Metallo]

I can't even laugh at Batman & Robin, its just awful. They intended to make a stupid movie. Just crap all around. Schumacher did not give a flying f*** and WB wanted to make a 2 hour toy commercial.

Reeve at even 20 percent effort is a better Superman than Clooney was as Batman. I just look at what they had even Pat Hingle do in that movie and I cringe.


110 million dollar budget and its STILL a failure on all levels. That takes some supreme greed and incompetence to pull off. There's no excuse for Batman & Robin to be as bad as it was except sheer incompetence and greed. They had every resource and every talent to make a better movie and its a piece of garbage.

 

[TheWatcher]

Catwoman is worse than both of them.

 

[Metallo]

Thats hard to argue with. that movies hardly even about Catwoman. A case of a movie being made because they were in to far as far as money, contracts, etc even though they knew it was going to be terrible.

 

[david icke]

Catwoman is worse than both of them.

Catwoman had absolutely zero cultural impact whatsoever, it was easily ignored, like a lot of bad super movies. It has nothing in common with SMIV and B&R, beyond being a bad sh movie, and there are many of those.
B&R and SMIV have a lot in common though, not least of which is where they landed culturally in the superhero landscape. SupermanIV came from the franchise that kickstarted the superhero movie genre, and took it to what seemed to be at the time, an all time low.
It took the Batman franchise in 1989 to kickstart the genre again from that lowpoint. The franchise that lead to B&R, which took the genre to it's , unquestionably, all time low. The SH genre was beginning to take shape and had a steady output of films since 'Batman'. B&R put a stop to that for a few years, the industry beginning to think it was just a fad that had seen it's course.(Blade being more of a cb horror movie). It sank the genre lower than SMIV because it had no excuse of low budget and cheap production values to explain why it was such a head splitting embarassment. It took all the daftest aspects of the genre and blew them up under the microscope in an almost deliberate attempt to destroy any credibility the form had. It was as the filmaker was trying to say, 'Do you really think we should be spending 100million dollars making this kind of garbage that should really remain in the form of your kid's disposable 'books'?
It was not until the emergence of X-Men that superhero movies were taken seriously again and showed that serious, faithful adaptations were the way to go, they would make the most money and get the most critical kudos.
Beyond all the excuses... budgets, intentions, studio interferance etc... taken as works of 'art', looking at them both coldly as constructions, SMIV is the worst piece of film. There is no question of that. B&R is slickly put together for the most part, even though the substance of the piece is a joke due to a boring, inane, unfunny script.
They are both responsible for the necessary lull before the inevitable comeback. Necessary because... Superman IV showed that you have to spend money on these films, you can't just fool the audience into thinking you have a quality product because you have bribed the respected lead actor into taking part, while B&R showed that you don't get a good movie if you ignore what makes the source material great. Both showed that you have to treat the audience with respect, they will not just believe and buy into any crap you come up with. Just because the material is fantastic, outlandish and originated in a medium that was originally intended for children, doesn't mean the film should not be treated as an intelligent work of art.
By being so bad in their shared and respective ways, they paved the way for the strong genre we have now, that is here to stay.
No one movie has the power to bring the genre down now.

 

[Thundarr]

I voted that I hate them both equally. I've read a lot of very valid points on this thread, and I agree with many of them.

I'm confused about the constant comments about someone other than Superman and Nuclear Man being able to breathe in space though. I honestly don't remember that happening. But to be honest, it has been many, many years since I saw Superman 4 so there are likely many scenes I don't fully remember.

Both movies sucked equally, though maybe for totally different reasons. Superman 4 sucked because of studio interferance (cutting their budget in half at the last minute, etc), and lack of talent behind the scenes (directors, editors, writers, etc). Batman & Robin had the talented cast and crew, the budget, everything they needed to make a great Batman movie, except for competent writers and producers who weren't more concerned with making money through the inevitable merchandising than making money at the box office.

 

[Thundarr]

Catwoman is worse than both of them.

Happy to say I've never seen it. Though I must admit, Halle Berry does look amazing in that Catwoman outfit. (I only know this from the trailers and posters)

 

[david icke]

I voted that I hate them both equally. I've read a lot of very valid points on this thread, and I agree with many of them.

I'm confused about the constant comments about someone other than Superman and Nuclear Man being able to breathe in space though. I honestly don't remember that happening. But to be honest, it has been many, many years since I saw Superman 4 so there are likely many scenes I don't fully remember.

It happens near the end, when Nuclear Man tries to kidnap Lacey, he flies into outer space with her before Superman saves her.

Both movies sucked equally, though maybe for totally different reasons. Superman 4 sucked because of studio interferance (cutting their budget in half at the last minute, etc), and lack of talent behind the scenes (directors, editors, writers, etc). Batman & Robin had the talented cast and crew, the budget, everything they needed to make a great Batman movie, except for competent writers and producers who weren't more concerned with making money through the inevitable merchandising than making money at the box office.

The thing is, Superman IV did have a respected and talented director at the helm, Sidney J Furie, who directed the classic Micheal Caine spy thriller 'The Ipcress File'.
Ok, I kind of feel sorry for him because he had the budget cut, but then again, the tone of the scenes and sub-par acting tells me he would have done a bad job regardless of budget. You can't excuse bad scenes of two people talking in a room on the budget.
edit: Ok, there is the odd scene that is fine, but even the ones between Kidder and Reeve are nowhere as good as the ones in the first two flicks, all the drama in SMIII puts it in the shade too.
Even the scenes that are fine, like some in B&R, are just downright boring, for the most part anyway. So, after you subtract the terribly made ones, and the boring ones, you arn't left with many others that are not annoying.

 

[Punisher Rising]

I have yet to see Superman IV (and the other Superman films for that matter, I'm way behind when it comes to Superman), but B&R is easily one of the worst movies in existance.

 

[david icke]

I have yet to see Superman IV (and the other Superman films for that matter, I'm way behind when it comes to Superman), but B&R is easily one of the worst movies in existance.

Frank, rise out of that chair you are sitting in, get out to the shops and buy 'em. Even if you don't want to splash out on the Special Editions, there is a boxset that you can get real cheap. It does not have the extras for II, III and IV, but has most of the extras for SMI. The picture quality is the same remastered quality as the SE's.
The first two are awesome, you will get a real blast out of them, III is a letdown after those two, but, still has some very good stuff in it, and is a lot of fun at times.
IV...you will probably get the same feeling you did watching B&R, you will definitely feel your punisher rising up to kick the tv screen in. But don't do it, instead take your dvd disc out of the player and use it as a Superman frisbee down the park. Y'know, a tiny frisbee for expert frisbee throwers.
But the first two are benchmarks of the sh movie genre and should be seen pronto.

 

[Rumpy Bulge Dubz]

Damn I sold my copy of Superman IV, and to think, I could've kept it and used it to go disc golfing.

an idea for the future though

 

[Ipodman]

Frank, rise out of that chair you are sitting in, get out to the shops and buy 'em. Even if you don't want to splash out on the Special Editions, there is a boxset that you can get real cheap. It does not have the extras for II, III and IV, but has most of the extras for SMI. The picture quality is the same remastered quality as the SE's.
The first two are awesome, you will get a real blast out of them, III is a letdown after those two, but, still has some very good stuff in it, and is a lot of fun at times.
IV...you will probably get the same feeling you did watching B&R, you will definitely feel your punisher rising up to kick the tv screen in. But don't do it, instead take your dvd disc out of the player and use it as a Superman frisbee down the park. Y'know, a tiny frisbee for expert frisbee throwers.
But the first two are benchmarks of the sh movie genre and should be seen pronto.

I gotta do that too... never seen III or IV

 

[david icke]

Damn I sold my copy of Superman IV, and to think, I could've kept it and used it to go disc golfing.

an idea for the future though

If you look in the local paper the next day after having some frisbee fun with your supermanIV dvd, you will usually see photos and reports of 'an unusual unidentified flying shiny object with strange symbols on one side.'

 

[david icke]

I gotta do that too... never seen III or IV

You should man, even though there are no extras for II,III and IV on the cheap boxset, there are lots for SMI, including a documentary that is over an hour long showing you the process of finding Superman and how they did the flying etc. Really brilliant footage of would be Supermen, like a guy who was one of the producer's wives dentists auditioning by jumping up in the air and pointing his finger dramatically, hilarious. Lots of footage of would be Lois Lanes as well, Kidder was by far the best actress, the rest have really dated acting, kind of like the other people who auditioned for Star Wars, 'Happy Days' type acting if you know what I mean.

 

[Punisher Rising]

Frank, rise out of that chair you are sitting in, get out to the shops and buy 'em. Even if you don't want to splash out on the Special Editions, there is a boxset that you can get real cheap. It does not have the extras for II, III and IV, but has most of the extras for SMI. The picture quality is the same remastered quality as the SE's.
The first two are awesome, you will get a real blast out of them, III is a letdown after those two, but, still has some very good stuff in it, and is a lot of fun at times.
IV...you will probably get the same feeling you did watching B&R, you will definitely feel your punisher rising up to kick the tv screen in. But don't do it, instead take your dvd disc out of the player and use it as a Superman frisbee down the park. Y'know, a tiny frisbee for expert frisbee throwers.
But the first two are benchmarks of the sh movie genre and should be seen pronto.

I've been meaning to see the first two movies for a long time, and will probably see the other three as well just to complete the experience (whenever I get into a series I've never seen before, I always like to view every installment to complete the experience). I often see a lot of people having trouble deciding which of the first two Superman movies is better.

If Superman IV gives me B&R deja vu, I've got a spare coaster for whenever I need one, at least

 

[mego joe]

SUperman REturns.

 

[Rumpy Bulge Dubz]

I've been meaning to see the first two movies for a long time, and will probably see the other three as well just to complete the experience (whenever I get into a series I've never seen before, I always like to view every installment to complete the experience). I often see a lot of people having trouble deciding which of the first two Superman movies is better.

If Superman IV gives me B&R deja vu, I've got a spare coaster for whenever I need one, at least

well the first two (like most superhero properties) are just excellent film making, and the third (also like most) is a guilty pleasure. I watch it for laughs from time to time and I like Richard Pryor. The same with Superman Returns, if you have a widescreen high def television, it's excellent for the visuals.

Superman IV, don't even waste your time, boring Billy Idol look-alike villain with complete crap fight sequences which can induce nausea, vomiting, headache, fever and chills.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

It's quite an insult to the hundreds of people who did good work on Batman & Robin (i.e. everyone except the director, writer and actors), such as cinematographer Steven Goldblatt, the production designers, set builders, sound editor, composer, special effects team, the armourer who built Freeze's suit....to say it is somehow worse than Superman IV, in which EVERY SINGLE ELEMENT is cheap, rushed and lame.

Superman IV isn't even a completed film. Batman & Robin is a technically competent, professional piece of work that makes grave errors in terms of dialogue, characterisation (or lack of) and tone.