Whats better ultimate spider man or the amazing spiderman?

[Eddie Brock]

is it necessary to put down the other comic in order to "make a point"?
i won't put down USM or ASM (from beginning till circa 1995-ish)
i will say that Amazing Spider-Man is getting ass-raped by Joe Q nowadays, but that isn't enough for me to insult the entire title
and USM, i don't have many complaints, yes, the story arcs are short, but let's take a look at 616 Clone Saga...that's what happens when an arc gets blown WAY out of proportion..plus, at this rate, USM will run out of ASM arcs to "copy" as some might say, which means that soon, it will be FRESH stories that no one has heard of

 

[The Joker]

Yuck. This post leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Which means I've hit you with the truth

Stan Lee's writing was lazy.

No it wasn't.

It was fresh, original, creative and dynamically cool. And that is a fact. If Stan's writing was as bad as you claim it to be, Spidey and all his villains wouldn't have seen the light of day past 1963.

It is important to flesh out your villains, not just your main character, and he didn't. Every villain is the same with a different arsenal, and you cannot tell them apart until their fifth or sixth appearances.

What a load of nonsense. Are you actually serious??

What kind of idiot cannot tell the difference between a meglomanical scientist with 4 menchanical tentacles who carried out his villainy thru scientific schemes, a thug with sand powers who committed petty theft, a scientist turned into a Lizard who was trying to regrow his missing arm, a businessman who was trying to conquer the underworld in a Green and purple costume while flying around on a broomstick/glider.........etc etc.

They all have the same goals, same tactics, and same dialogue.

As I described above, that is BS!

I have already, however, stated several times that I loved the early days of ASM, and that I understand how fresh this all would have been in 1963.

And yet you have the nerve to call one of the most creative minds in comic book history a lazy writer.

Regardless of the reasons why Stan might have wrote that way, the book suffers

But the book does not suffer. Maybe to you. But then you're in the frame of mind that Stan Lee is lazy with his writing.

and since USM is free from these hindrances, I find it far superior.

USM is not superior. And here's why: USM is an ASM copycat. It takes all the best from ASM and changes it a bit. There's nothing in USM that's original.

-Goblin taking Peter's gf to the bridge
-Gwen being murdered by a villain which Peter feels responsible for
-Captain Stacy murdered in the line of duty
-Uncle Ben killed by someone Peter let get away when he could have stopped him
-Harry becoming a Goblin, except it makes a a complete muck up of the Hobgoblin character

There is nothing superior about any of this, because ASM has done it all, and better. The only thing USM seems to be improving on from 616 is the clone saga. But then a trained monkey could make that stupid story better it was so bad.

Bendis' job is to take something and improve upon it, which I believe he has done

Well that's your opinion of course.

Personally, I think he's had more misses than hits. In some character's cases he's made them worse than their 616 counterparts [Shocker, Carnage]. And some have remained virtually the same as their 616 counterparts [Kingpin, Black Cat].

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

OMG! Finally someone who understands! I too gave up on ASM after the many horrible storylines you mentioned, and found USM just as TPB #14 was coming out. It saved my comic-reading life!
Thank you for having the courage to do the unthinkable and go against the sea of rabid fans who believe it is blasphemy to go against anything Stan Lee did.

Posts like this turn the "sea of rabid fans" against you. I should know. I'm a pro at that.

 

[Feature]

They seem pretty damn varied to me.

Firstly, you did not include in your description of the Lizard that Connors had full control of his transformations at all times. That is canon in the 616 Universe, so like it or not, until it is retconned, that's how it is.
Secondly, of course there are some differences between the villains, I've already stated this. But the majority either a) have an accident or b) invent a tool to help them break that law and then they a) try to control the world or b) try to gain material wealth.
There are deviations from this pattern, but these were the early standard formulas, and that's obvious.

You’re judging ASM from only Stan’s work and there in lies the flaw. Stan worked on Spider-Man for 10 out of Spidey’s 44 year history.

I've talked at length about the series as a whole before, I am now replying to Doc Ock's tangent about the wonder that is Stan Lee.

The actual purpose of the Ultimate universe is to update and familiarize origins, characters and events for new readers in today’s world, as well as free characters of

convoluted back-histories. It is not to “change up” characters because writers can.

This is completely true, but in order to free characters from their convoluted histories, wouldn't changes have to be made, so as not to convolute the histories again?

 

[Feature]

No it wasn't.

It was fresh, original, creative and dynamically cool. And that is a fact. If Stan's writing was as bad as you claim it to be, Spidey and all his villains wouldn't have seen the light of day past 1963.

I've have already stated I like Stan Lee's work. We are in agreement that it WAS cool. If those issues were to come out now, they might not be up to par with modern books. That was my argument, I don't know what you're arguing against.

What kind of idiot cannot tell the difference between a meglomanical scientist with 4 menchanical tentacles who carried out his villainy thru scientific schemes, a thug with sand powers who committed petty theft, a scientist turned into a Lizard who was trying to regrow his missing arm, a businessman who was trying to conquer the underworld in a Green and purple costume while flying around on a broomstick/glider.........etc etc

Yes, very good, they all have different costumes and powers. You rock.

But the book does not suffer. Maybe to you. But then you're in the frame of mind that Stan Lee is lazy with his writing.

Yes, to me the book did suffer because Stan was not able to elaborate on his characters. This doesn't mean he couldn't, it means he didn't. If Stan Lee had been able to write about Spider-Man as an already long-established character, he might have been able to do a better job then Bendis. BUT, he didn't get that chance.
This is not some personal attack on Stan Lee, as you would make it seem. I love Stan Lee, if not for him there would be no ASM or USM and we would not be having this debate (which would be a blessing).

USM is not superior. And here's why: USM is an ASM copycat. It takes all the best from ASM and changes it a bit. There's nothing in USM that's original.

-Goblin taking Peter's gf to the bridge
-Gwen being murdered by a villain which Peter feels responsible for
-Captain Stacy murdered in the line of duty
-Uncle Ben killed by someone Peter let get away when he could have stopped him
-Harry becoming a Goblin, except it makes a a complete muck up of the Hobgoblin character

There is nothing superior about any of this, because ASM has done it all, and better. The only thing USM seems to be improving on from 616 is the clone saga. But then a trained monkey could make that stupid story better it was so bad.

Give me a break. I could make a list as long of things that haven't occured in the 616.

-Green Goblin attacking Peter at school, calling him by name.
-Ben's killer being a former employee of the Kingpin.
-Kraven hunting for Spider-Man in the halls of Peter's school.
-Harry Osborn having undergone hypnotism for most of his life.
-Gwen Stacy moving in with Peter and Aunt May.
-An experiment of Peter's father becoming one of Spider-Man's most lethal enemies.
-A group of Spidey's enemies teaming up and forcing him to join them.
-Gwen Stacy holding Peter at gunpoint and accusing him of killing her father.
-A murderous organism with Peter's face murdering one of his best friends.
-Peter dating a X-woman.
-Aunt May dating Miles Warren.

The list goes on.
I am seriously done with this thread. Someone tries to express their opinion, and if it is different, people go insane. Reminds me of high school. I am thoroughly dissapointed and dissillusioned with these boards. I don't know why you people react so violently to someone not liking ASM, but really, just get a life.

 

[Themanofbat]

I am seriously done with this thread. Someone tries to express their opinion, and if it is different, people go insane. Reminds me of high school. I am thoroughly dissapointed and dissillusioned with these boards. I don't know why you people react so violently to someone not liking ASM, but really, just get a life.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions around here, as it's been the case in my 6 1/2 years here... and for the most part, everyone respect's one another.

But whether you'd care to admit it or not, you've been just as guilty for belittling others for not sharing your own opinions, and responding in kind with sarcastic and borderline beligerent remarks.

And I'd hardly call anyone's remarks "violent"...

As I stated earlier...

And for the record, I can easily understand why people like Ultimate Spider-Man... the art's good, the writing, though weak most times, is at least consistent and steady. It's the shinye new apple instead of the one with the bite marks in it.

I can understand the allure.

However, as I've mentioned before, it's NOT the same Peter Parker I grew up with... the Peter Parker I grew up with became someone I actually came to care about... he's more than just a drawing (Dew herself said so ) That doesn't mean I like everything that happens to the guy... I have rolled my eyes many a time when reading 616 Spidey books. But I am familiar with this Peter Parker fellow, and I gave up on him once (in 1997) and I won't do it again.

And no matter how many times different people tell me it's the same Peter Parker in the Ultimate Universe, just "updated and modernized and without baggage), I will always feel differently. It's NOT the same person to me.

That's my opinion on the subject, and it's not going to change.

I bid you all a fine day and a wonderful weekend.

Cheers...

... peopel are entitled to like what they want. You and I obviously share differing tastes in comics... but I don't need snide and snarky remarks from some pretentious poster that I've never even encountered prior to the last few days about the comics I read.

My opinions of the Ultimate Universe have been well dosumented here at the hype since May of 2000.

I'm sorry that you don't like nor care for my opinion, but it is mine.

Cheers...

 

[The Joker]

I've have already stated I like Stan Lee's work. We are in agreement that it WAS cool.

It still is cool.

In fact Stan put more in one comic than most comics do these days. You didn't see Stan wasting two whole pages on a splash pic of Spidey punching someone or leaping off a roof etc.

You really got your money's worth in those days. You should actually see which takes you longer to read. An issue of Stan's ASM or USM.

If those issues were to come out now, they might not be up to par with modern books. That was my argument, I don't know what you're arguing against.

I'm arguing against you calling Stan being lazy in his writing. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Yes, very good, they all have different costumes and powers. You rock

And different motivations. Sandman wasn't out for power or to conquer the world like Ock. Lizard wasn't out to get a grip on the underworld like GG etc.

So this amazing similarity you claim they all had was not there at all.

Yes, to me the book did suffer because Stan was not able to elaborate on his characters.

There was plenty of elaboration. What elaboration has Ultimate Norman got that Stan didn't give 616 Norman?? Or Ult Ock with 616 Ock?? Or Ult Electro with 616 Electro etc etc

This is not some personal attack on Stan Lee, as you would make it seem.

You called Stan a lazy writer. How is that not a personal attack on the man??

I love Stan Lee, if not for him there would be no ASM or USM and we would not be having this debate (which would be a blessing).

Dude, nobody's forcing you to reply.

Don't act silly now.

Give me a break. I could make a list as long of things that haven't occured in the 616.

Ok lets see what you've got....

Green Goblin attacking Peter at school, calling him by name.

Big deal. It's just a slight tweak of him attacking him in front of his house and calling him by name in ASM #39. Except that situation had the added excitement of Aunt May being in close proximity.

Ben's killer being a former employee of the Kingpin

What difference does that make?? It's not like Kingpin told him to kill Ben.

Kraven hunting for Spider-Man in the halls of Peter's school

You call Kraven sniffing around the school a dramatic and original improvement over 616 Kraven's story??

Harry Osborn having undergone hypnotism for most of his life.

Again, nothing majorly better than what they did with Harry in 616.

Gwen Stacy moving in with Peter and Aunt May

As opposed to dating Peter. Big deal.

An experiment of Peter's father becoming one of Spider-Man's most lethal enemies

As opposed to him being branded a traitor to his country and having ties with the Red Skull.

Again, nothing but a little tweak to the 616 story. Nothing really original or earth shatteringly different to 616. His father has a shady past.

A group of Spidey's enemies teaming up and forcing him to join them

You mean like Norman Osborn trying to make him join him in 616??

Gwen Stacy holding Peter at gunpoint and accusing him of killing her father

Gwen blamed Spider-Man for her dad's death in 616 too. She just never knew Peter was Spider-Man.

Again, another slight tweak.

A murderous organism with Peter's face murdering one of his best friends

As opposed to GG killing Gwen, and Peter blaming himself for it.

Peter dating a X-woman

I'll give you that. But what have they done with that except make MJ jealous. Same as when Black Cat was sniffing around in 616.

Aunt May dating Miles Warren

The equivalent to Aunt May dating Doc Ock.

The list goes on.

And if it's anything like that list there, then it only proves that USM is an ASM copycat. Nothing new or earth shatteringly different. Just tweaking of 616 stories and characters.

I am seriously done with this thread. Someone tries to express their opinion, and if it is different, people go insane.

Would you care to point out where someone went insane.

I am thoroughly dissapointed and dissillusioned with these boards. I don't know why you people react so violently to someone not liking ASM, but really, just get a life.

Would you also point out where someone got violent.

I think you're the one that's over reacting here dude. Nobody else.

 

[Jasmine]

Ultimate for a good while has been my favorite Spider-Man book. JMS run was great until SP. Since then it's been up and down with the exception of the New Avengers arc, thought that one was great. I've loved pretty much all of the USM stories in addition to the characterization of the cast, and Bagley's beautiful art.

 

[stillanerd]

Big deal. It's just a slight tweak of him attacking him in front of his house and calling him by name in ASM #39. Except that situation had the added excitement of Aunt May being in close proximity.

Actually, it's also closer to when Sandman attacked Peter's high school in ASM #4, except Bendis substituted "Hulk-Goblin" with Sandman and made it more violent.

As opposed to him being branded a traitor to his country and having ties with the Red Skull.

Again, nothing but a little tweak to the 616 story. Nothing really original or earth shatteringly different to 616. His father has a shady past.

And in some ways, it may be too shady, considering what's been happening in USM's version of the "clone saga." There Bendis is throwing out the possibility that Peter's dad has been alive and well all this time and that Aunt May knew about it all along--which would be a horrible move on Bendis' part if that really is the case (most likely he's Carnage version 2.0 and May's been hypnotized by Warren).

Then again, one of Bendis' flaws on USM, besides decompression for the sake of the trades, is his tendency to go overboard with the connections (such as Spidey's origins are tied in with both the Green Goblins and Doc Ock's, which are also tied into the super-soldier program, S.H.I.E.L.D., Justin Hammer, Venom, Carnage, Dr. Connors, AND Peter's dad) thus making a convoluted continuity which, ironically, was one of the things the Ultimate line was trying to avoid.

 

[Danger Mouse]

USM is an ASM copycat. It takes all the best from ASM and changes it a bit.

Of course it's a copycat. It's Peter Parker's journey as Spider-Man. What, you expect drastic departures? But beyond being a copycat, the way I see it, USM is ASM enhanced.

Go tell Jackson that his King Kong is a copycat of the 1930s movie, why dontcha. Sheesh.

IT'S A REMAKE. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A COPYCAT. AN 'ENHANCED' COPYCAT. What is the matter with you?

 

[hippy fascist]

enhanced like sly stalones mom

 

[Danger Mouse]

But I guess I'm just ******ed.

Look, if you don't have any new information to offer, kindly refrain from posting.

 

[Danger Mouse]

enhanced like sly stalones mom

With such intelligent and profound rebuttals such as this, how can I possibly disagree?

I will definitely have to take you as seriously as you have taken me from now on.

 

[November Rain]

er.....

why does anyone even care so much, or has it got to do more about defending one's preference based on what you deem as someone else's invalide point?

i know i've probably gone on about 'unimportant' things in the past that people have wondered 'why does he care' but the shoe's on the other foot with this thread.

 

[Danger Mouse]

Because there are no bigger issues to discuss at this time of the evening?

 

[hippy fascist]

With such intelligent and profound rebuttals such as this, how can I possibly disagree?

I will definitely have to take you as seriously as you have taken me from now on.

Chill out man, it was intended to be a joke. I read ultimate spiderman, I've read every issue so far, personally I prefer 616 but each to their own. I just thought the thread was getting way to serious and people were taking this far too personally so I figured I'd lighten things up a bit. If any genuine offence was caused I apologise

 

[XwolverineX]

USM twists new plots with ASM twists, which is a helluva lot better then Iron Mystical I have no secret Identity man.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Look, if you don't have any new information to offer, kindly refrain from posting.

Sucka!

I love Ultimate Spider-Man. I've loved it ever since I started reading the early issues on Marvel.com when they offered them as web comics.

Personally, a lot of the story arcs and classic Spider-Man villains they've used are NOTHING like their regular universe versions. I've seen two types of arguements from people who dislike Ultimate Spider-Man.

Arguement # 1: Ultimate Spider-Man is basically just copying and pasting Amazing Spider-Man storylines and doing them for a modern retelling.

Rebuttal: Obviously you've never ACTUALLY read the book then. Because even the first story arc where Peter gets the spider powers it's already completely pushed itself away from the source material. Uncle Ben appears in about half the first story arc, while Uncle Ben in the regular universe had like..what...TWO PANELS?!

Arguement # 2: How come in Ultimate Spider-Man everything is so different? They are bastardizing Stan Lee's creations! What the hell is wrong with Bendis, anyway?

Rebuttal: Um, that IS the point of Ultimate Spider-Man. Not to bastardize past creations but do something with them that ISN'T like the regular universe Spider-Man. Because if you just want to do things over again, panel for panel...just buy Essential Spider-Man trades or the Masterwork trades. Or the Amazing Spider-Man 40 year CD-ROM.

Look at the way they did Venom. It's basically a COMPLETELY different character than the regular universe...and THAT'S the way it should be. Look what they did with Carnage. While most people disliked it because of what happened to Gwen Stacy, I thought that it was a pretty good storyline despite the brutality of the ending.

It's really the entire Ultimate Universe that I love because it's more realistic visions of these characters, and also injects them into a modern time rather than rereading stories for the 1960's and the extreme cheese factor that you experience, haha. The Ultimate Universe, or Bendis for that matter, aren't claiming that THIS is the universe that will eventually replace the regular universe. Personally, many fans who dislike the Ultimate Universe seem to have lingering fear that the Ultimate Universe is supposed to replace the regular universe or something. And I just don't see that happening. Despite what you like or dislike with the current status of the regular universe Spider-Man, things ALWAYS get better. Things DO get retconned. And people have shiny happy smiles back on their grimaces of death.

 

[The Joker]

Of course it's a copycat. It's Peter Parker's journey as Spider-Man. What, you expect drastic departures? But beyond being a copycat, the way I see it, USM is ASM enhanced.

Apart from the enhanced part, you're correct.

Tell all that to Feature there who is saying that USM is leaps and bounds over ASM, making vast improvements over it, and Stan Lee was just lazy with his writing etc, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Go tell Jackson that his King Kong is a copycat of the 1930s movie, why dontcha. Sheesh.

Grow up

What is the matter with you?

Not a damn thing.

What's the matter with you Mr hostility?? You think because you're a MOD you can act like an ass towards others??

 

[The Joker]

Arguement # 1: Ultimate Spider-Man is basically just copying and pasting Amazing Spider-Man storylines and doing them for a modern retelling.

Rebuttal: Obviously you've never ACTUALLY read the book then. Because even the first story arc where Peter gets the spider powers it's already completely pushed itself away from the source material. Uncle Ben appears in about half the first story arc, while Uncle Ben in the regular universe had like..what...TWO PANELS?!

Poor arguement there SIAT.

You think that just because Uncle Ben had some extra scenes in USM, that makes it dynamically different and original??

Of course not. Same story, just stretched a bit. Nothing dramatically different, just a tweaked story to the original.

Arguement # 2: How come in Ultimate Spider-Man everything is so different? They are bastardizing Stan Lee's creations! What the hell is wrong with Bendis, anyway?

Rebuttal: Um, that IS the point of Ultimate Spider-Man. Not to bastardize past creations but do something with them that ISN'T like the regular universe Spider-Man. Because if you just want to do things over again, panel for panel...just buy Essential Spider-Man trades or the Masterwork trades. Or the Amazing Spider-Man 40 year CD-ROM.

I personally don't believe USM has bastardized all Stan Lee's creations. Some characters have been screwed up something awful. Peter, MJ, Aunt May, Uncle Ben, Osborn, Ock, Electro etc are all pretty good. Some are practically identical to their 616 counterparts. Others come off worse.

The arguement with changes is that you want something that's GOOD different. Ult Shocker, Carnage, Rhino etc are not good different.

Look at the way they did Venom. It's basically a COMPLETELY different character than the regular universe...and THAT'S the way it should be.

That is one great change. 616 Venom is a joke. But at least Ult Venom had real motivations for being a villain.

Look what they did with Carnage. While most people disliked it because of what happened to Gwen Stacy, I thought that it was a pretty good storyline despite the brutality of the ending.

I disliked Ult Carnage not because of Gwen's death, but because of what they did to Carnage. It wasn't even a person. It was just a thing. An entity. A blob of red cells. No personality or character.

Waste of a character.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Poor arguement there SIAT.

You think that just because Uncle Ben had some extra scenes in USM, that makes it dynamically different and original??

Of course not. Same story, just stretched a bit. Nothing dramatically different, just a tweaked story to the original.



I personally don't believe USM has bastardized all Stan Lee's creations. Some characters have been screwed up something awful. Peter, MJ, Aunt May, Uncle Ben, Osborn, Ock, Electro etc are all pretty good. Some are practically identical to their 616 counterparts. Others come off worse.

The arguement with changes is that you want something that's GOOD different. Ult Shocker, Carnage, Rhino etc are not good different.



That is one great change. 616 Venom is a joke. But at least Ult Venom had real motivations for being a villain.



I disliked Ult Carnage not because of Gwen's death, but because of what they did to Carnage. It wasn't even a person. It was just a thing. An entity. A blob of red cells. No personality or character.

Waste of a character.

Sheesh, I was just giving examples. Do you want me to run down every single USM arc and point out everything that separates it from the regular universe?

And that's what I liked about the Carnage arc, that it WASN'T a person. If you wanted Carnage with a host then read the regular universe Carnage stuff, otherwise this is what I like to see from my Ultimate stories...something DIFFERENT.

And while the first USM story arc was a mirror of the origin in Amazing Fantasy, well, that's what it was SUPPOSED to be. But it wasn't the same story. There was substance behind the characters and the emotion of what happened was much stronger. If you think otherwise you're just a, how do they say it, Stan Lee zombie?

What's good different or bad different is subjective is it not? I thought the death of Gwen Stacy in Ultimate was rather horribly done and too sudden. There are people who thought it was fine, trust me there are. And like my example with Carnage. I love the fact that it is hostless and was a product of Peter Parker's blood sample. I loved how different Venom was from the original, that the suit was designed by Peter's dad and Eddie's dad. It gives us something that is AWAY from the regular universe. I DON'T want a repeat of the regular Marvel universe. I already buy those books, or have bought them. I don't need a repeat. The fact that the Green Goblin is ACTUALLY A GREEN GOBLIN!! Heh. Instead of some middle aged business man in a latex costume. People say, "Oh, it's like the Incredible Green Goblin, he's almost bigger than the Hulk!" SO WHAT?! I like that he's huge and shoots fire and is COMPLETELY AWAY FROM THE REGULAR UNIVERSE!!

Maybe you don't like the series because it strays so far from the source material. But, to me, that's not the point of the Ultimate Universe. It's a modern, realistic vision of the original creations for a newer audience that will have trouble reading Stan Lee's 1960's stories that are so BLATANTLY cheesy that it will probably turn most new comic fans off. And I've seen it first hand. Most people I try to introduce Spider-Man to, with the Essential trades, either are too busy making fun of the cheesy dialogue and the 60's slang than they are paying attention to the story that is Spider-Man. I hand them Ultimate Spider-Man and it WORKS. That's just the way it is and I give kudos to Marvel for having this Ultimate Universe because without it they might not have the amount of comic fans that they do now.

 

[The Joker]

Do you want me to run down every single USM arc and point out everything that separates it from the regular universe?

*Looks at watch*

Well if you've got the time

And that's what I liked about the Carnage arc, that it WASN'T a person. If you wanted Carnage with a host then read the regular universe Carnage stuff, otherwise this is what I like to see from my Ultimate stories...something DIFFERENT.

That silly arguement of "If you want to see this or that read 616" is stupid. I said I want to see something GOOD different. Making Carnage into a nothing character is not good different IMO.

It's lazy.

And while the first USM story arc was a mirror of the origin in Amazing Fantasy, well, that's what it was SUPPOSED to be. But it wasn't the same story. There was substance behind the characters and the emotion of what happened was much stronger.

Of course it was the same story. What was different about it other than the place where Peter got his powers??

Same basic story. A mirror origin like you said. It's just Bendis, unlike Stan, had the luxury of doing this over several comics and adding in stuff like Aunt May making banana bread, or breakfast scenes with Peter and Ben and May. Stan was putting his character in ONE comic, just one, and thought he'd never see Spidey again.

If you think otherwise you're just a, how do they say it, Stan Lee zombie?

If liking the original classic better than the copycat revamp makes me a Stan Lee zombie, then I proudly call myself a Stan Lee zombie

What's good different or bad different is subjective is it not?

Most definitely.

It's the reasons WHY people think what's good or bad that interests me.

I thought the death of Gwen Stacy in Ultimate was rather horribly done and too sudden.

Ditto.

There are people who thought it was fine, trust me there are.

Since there are people who like Sins Past, the Other and this unmasking business, I find that very easy to believe

It gives us something that is AWAY from the regular universe. I DON'T want a repeat of the regular Marvel universe.

Neither do I.

But as I said, I'd like something good different. Making Shocker a bumbling dumbass, Rhino a midget in a robot, Carnage a mindless nothing etc just doesn't float my boat.

The characters come off silly and lame.

The fact that the Green Goblin is ACTUALLY A GREEN GOBLIN!!

My only gripe with that is that he looks too much like the Hulk.

Maybe you don't like the series because it strays so far from the source material.

The series is 50/50 with me. Some good, some bad.

As I said, I have no problem with straying from the material, that is the point of it, what I'd like is something good different.

But, to me, that's not the point of the Ultimate Universe. It's a modern, realistic vision of the original creations for a newer audience that will have trouble reading Stan Lee's 1960's stories that are so BLATANTLY cheesy that it will probably turn most new comic fans off. And I've seen it first hand. Most people I try to introduce Spider-Man to, with the Essential trades, either are too busy making fun of the cheesy dialogue and the 60's slang than they are paying attention to the story that is Spider-Man. I hand them Ultimate Spider-Man and it WORKS. That's just the way it is and I give kudos to Marvel for having this Ultimate Universe because without it they might not have the amount of comic fans that they do now.

That's funny, because I've seen the opposite. Most new fans love the classic stuff.

You should trek to the movie forums some time. The newbie Spidey fans are always ranting on about the Essential trades they bought, and how they'd like this or that referenced or done in the movies.

 

[SpideyInATree]

But as I said, I'd like something good different. Making Shocker a bumbling dumbass, Rhino a midget in a robot, Carnage a mindless nothing etc just doesn't float my boat.

The characters come off silly and lame.

And The Shocker and Rhino weren't lame in the regular universe? I mean all everybody does is go on how Spider-Man has these great powers and can beat Captain America and can do EVERYTHING. But a guy with vibration blasters on his arms, who doesn't even have super powers, handed Spider-Man has ass on many occassions. The Shocker is a fun villain. I like what Bendis has done with The Shocker in Ultimate. And the same thing with The Rhino because Rhino in the regular universe is as dumb as a friggin' rock.

 

[Themanofbat]

Of course it's a copycat. It's Peter Parker's journey as Spider-Man. What, you expect drastic departures? But beyond being a copycat, the way I see it, USM is ASM enhanced.

Go tell Jackson that his King Kong is a copycat of the 1930s movie, why dontcha. Sheesh.

IT'S A REMAKE. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A COPYCAT. AN 'ENHANCED' COPYCAT. What is the matter with you?

Well, that's merely opinion, and I could ask what's the matter with you? Screaming at posters for not sharing your opinion? Sheesh...

It's your opinion, and that of a few others, that USM is an enhanced version of Spider-Man.

Your opinion and a wooden nickel still won't be enough to get you a cup of coffee.

It's my opinion that ASM is and always has been the superior book. Without it, USM would have nothing to copy from. It's nothing more than a cheap sugar-coated photocopy made for easy reading by whiney "oooh, too much history hurts my head" fanboys.

But hey... that 's just MY opinion.

And my opinion and a wooden nickel still won't get me that cup of coffee neither, but I'm not screaming at you nor have I screamed at anyone else. What is the matter with you?

Maybe you should relax and double your zoloft intake, DM...

Have a nice day.

 

[Feature]

Stan put more in one comic than most comics do these days. You didn't see Stan wasting two whole pages on a splash pic of Spidey punching someone or leaping off a roof etc.

You really got your money's worth in those days. You should actually see which takes you longer to read. An issue of Stan's ASM or USM.

You know Doc Ock, this is totally TRUE. Yes, I'm agreeing with you. t: Anyone can look at an issue of ASM from Stan's era and plainly see that it is alot more to read than there is in a modern book.
I mean, on some pages you've got twelve panels crammed with dialogue. My only problem with that was (and please don't bite my head off here) that the dialogue was always so similar. Consider the following:

VILLANS FOLLOWING THE DEFEAT OF SPIDER-MAN
- Vulture in ASM 2: "With Spider-Man out of the way, the city will be mine!"
- Sandman in ASM 4: "Okay Spider-Man! Now its just you 'n me! Once I finish you off, nobody'll be able to stop me!"
- Electro in ASM 9: "Well, with him out of the way, no single human is strong enough to challenge me!"

VILLAINS ON SUPREMACY
- Doc Ock in ASM 3: "With such power and my brilliant mind, I'm the supreme human being on Earth!"
- The Lizard in ASM 6: "Now there is none to stop me! Now I am supreme!"
- Vulture in ASM 7: "My revenge is complete! Now The Vulture is supreme!"
- Mysterio in ASM 13: "If Spider-Man couldn't defeat me, nobody can! Now Mysterio is supreme!"

SPIDEY ON THE STRENGTH OF HIS WEBBING
- Spider-Man (fighting Doc Ock) in ASM 3: "My web! He snapped it! Nobody has ever done that before!"
- Spider-Man (fighting the Lizard) in ASM 6: "I'll try to hold him with my web, until - No! That's no good either! He snapped it with his tail as if it were made of paper!"
- Spider-Man (fighting the Living Brain) in ASM 8: "Aw, that's impossible! He can't break my webbing!" Narrator: "But the mighty machine flows through the deceptively strong webbing as though it doesn't exist!"

This is just from the first few issues of ASM, and I'm not even including how many times Spidey says "Boy, he's not kiddin'!" or "I'm the original Hard-Luck Charlie!" Alot of the dialogue is the same. I know that these example only make up a small percentage of all the dialogue in the books, but I just found it annoying. Again, I'm just trying to explain why I personally find USM to be superior, I'm not attacking your opinion.

I'm arguing against you calling Stan being lazy in his writing. Nothing could be further from the truth.

You're right... again. It was a terrible choice of words on my part. But, as we discussed, I don't think it was Stan's lack of skill in writing that made things this way, but rather that he had the immense task of establishing this character all on his own, and therefore, had to keep things fast-paced, not allowing him to flesh-out all his characters as much as he might have liked.

And different motivations. Sandman wasn't out for power or to conquer the world like Ock. Lizard wasn't out to get a grip on the underworld like GG etc.
So this amazing similarity you claim they all had was not there at all.

This argument can go both ways. What different motivations did the Chameleon, Vulture, Sandman, Electro, and Mysterio have when they were first introduced? I feel they were all pretty one-dimensional when first introduced.

You call Kraven sniffing around the school a dramatic and original improvement over 616 Kraven's story??

Well, Kraven sniffing around the school isn't his 'story'. His story is that he's a reality TV star, and I think his first USM appearance, where he almost 'outs' Peter as Spider-Man in front of his whole school, was better than his first ASM appearance (where he wrestles Spider-Man in the park).
All in all though, I think Kraven is the only USM villain whose 616 origin is superior. I loved 616 Kraven and Bendis' version doesn't do it for me.

Again, nothing majorly better than what they did with Harry in 616.

I see this as developing Norman more than Harry. I liked the idea of Norman forcing Harry to be hypnotized because it shows how sick Norman is. He is just an evil guy. In the 616, it wasn't until he began taking the Goblin serum that he became evil, is that right? (I think it is) I like that in USM he's just a jerk, period.

As opposed to dating Peter. Big deal.

I think Gwen living with the Parkers is a big deal because we get a chance to see Peter interact with a sibling-type character, which we never did in ASM. People really seemed to like it.

Again, nothing but a little tweak to the 616 story. Nothing really original or earth shatteringly different to 616. His father has a shady past.

Here I was addressing Venom's origin more than Richard's legacy. I just think it is a vast improvement on Venom to have the character be so deeply linked to Peter, sort of like brothers, rather than just have them... "share"... an alien... I know there is more to it than that, but I just think in USM they have this quality that makes it seem as though they were meant to be archrivals.

As opposed to GG killing Gwen, and Peter blaming himself for it.

Yeah, but once he found out it was just a lover's spat, it probably took a load off his shoulders, no?

I'll give you that. But what have they done with that except make MJ jealous. Same as when Black Cat was sniffing around in 616.

Very true.

The equivalent to Aunt May dating Doc Ock.

Hmmm... it is similar. We'll have to wait and see Miles' true intentions before we decide this one.

Would you care to point out where someone went insane. Would you also point out where someone got violent. I think you're the one that's over reacting here dude. Nobody else.

Come on buddy, you're first post in this thread directed towards me was so antagonistic! Saying you lost all respect for me? It totally took this whole thing out of impersonal-debate territory.
I do realize that I was involved in a very immature and regrettable exchange with manofbat at the time however, so you're excused. Hopefully, we can all resume more civilly.