who here actuallyread the graphic nolvel.

[ultimatefan]

I did and I always knew that if the movie captured its look and feel, it´d be something to behold...

 

[Manhunter]

If you consider me a hater, consider me a hater.

Done.

...Bad dialogue is a major problem throughout the entire film.

Because you said so? That blanket statement needs some sort of example to justify it's existance. Hateurs live, and die, by flimsy blanket statements.

Making an already borderline-silly graphic novel much sillier is a fairly big deal.

There's another blanket statement...without any supporting evidence. Rhetoric is a hateur's best friend.

A consistent lack of character development is something that's hard to overlook.

A writer has 4 plots to work with, man vs. man; man vs. environment; man vs. self; and man vs. supernatural. Character development need not be at the forefront of every story, sometimes the plot itself can be the focus, and here it was, Man vs. Man.
In fact excessive character development here would detract from the plot, and therefore would have been a mistake.

A distracting, boring, and ultimately unnecessary subplot is a big deal.

So I take it you don't date women then, because that little subplot you feel was so unnecessary resonates very much with the ladies. Having the Queen stand by her man gives the ladies something to relate to amidst all the blood and gore.

See how I support my statements rather than just making unsubstantiated claims of personal preference? Rhetoric free baby, try it sometime and ppl just might take you seriously.

 

[cryptic name]

If you consider me a hater, consider me a hater. Sorry I'm out of step with the rest of the brainless praise crusade around these parts which has called this film one of the "greatest films of all time."

A lot of my problems aren't nitpicks. A nitpick is, "Dude, his hair looked silly the whole time. Ruined the film for me." Bad dialogue is a major problem throughout the entire film. Making an already borderline-silly graphic novel much sillier is a fairly big deal. A consistent lack of character development is something that's hard to overlook. A distracting, boring, and ultimately unnecessary subplot is a big deal. The glorification of a civilization that is portrayed as utterly barbaric undermines the entire film.


It could just as easily be flipped around, my friend. Your subjective praises don't count for much either.


Well, forgive me if I like my entertainment to be relatively well made. Just because a movie has the occaisional nice visual and a few good fight scenes doesn't give it a pass to be artistically bankrupt.

...you realize just stating your opinion doesn't make it so, right?

 

[Agentsands77]

Because you said so? That blanket statement needs some sort of example to justify it's existance.

Here's an example: "There is no room for softness. Not in Sparta. No place for weakness. Only the hard and strong may call themselves Spartans. Only the hard. Only the strong." Absolutely terrible.

There's another blanket statement...without any supporting evidence. Rhetoric is a hateur's best friend.

I've already given examples earlier in this thread, that's why I didn't feel the need to restate myself.

Earlier in this thread, I said this: Zack Snyder made the very odd choice of adding silly monsters and further dehumanizing the Persians beyond what Miller already did. I have yet to understand the reasoning behind that choice. Nor will I understand why Snyder decided to add an anthropomorphic goat to Xerxes' tent (or to fill it with deformed women and transsexuals).

It's even more odd that he chooses to have the Immortals look like orcs once unmasked. It detracts from the story - 300 should feel, to some degree connected to reality. It's a stylized, exaggerated reality, yes, but this goes beyond that line and places this squarely in the realm of fantasy.

A writer has 4 plots to work with, man vs. man; man vs. environment; man vs. self; and man vs. supernatural. Character development need not be at the forefront of every story, sometimes the plot itself can be the focus, and here it was, Man vs. Man.
In fact excessive character development here would detract from the plot, and therefore would have been a mistake.

I think character development would enhance the plot there. This is a very simple story about sacrifice, about a great a heroic moment. Well, we can only truly appreciate an act of heroism and sacrifice once we're emotionally attached to the people who are sacrificing. We have to get to know these people.

So I take it you don't date women then, because that little subplot you feel was so unnecessary resonates very much with the ladies. Having the Queen stand by her man gives the ladies something to relate to amidst all the blood and gore.

Not the ladies I saw the film with. Likewise, they found her subplot dull, and were furthermore very turned off by her character's choice to let Theron have his way with her. But earlier in this thread, I said:

I would also argue that the additional material for Gorgo is entirely extraneous and uninteresting, largely because her character is uninteresting to begin with.
Had they made her more than just a thinly-drawn character (her character, even with the additional material, still feels like an afterthought), her storyline might have held some resonance. I'm all for females having parts in epics, and some of them can be fascinating.

See how I support my statements rather than just making unsubstantiated claims of personal preference? Rhetoric free baby, try it sometime and ppl just might take you seriously.

I've supported a number of my statements before in this thread. I shouldn't have to restate everything I've said in every subsequent post (in fact, with a thread as short as this, the assumption should be that all my posts to this point have been read).

Nor should I have to write an essay to back up every single judgment I make, unless you wish to make that a requirement to everyone who posts, whether positively or negatively inclined towards the subject matter. Furthermore, I should feel free to post an opinion, substantiated or not. In fact, I tend to do this out of practicality's sake - it is only after you have posted the opinions that you discover which ones are attacked, and therefore, rather than wasting energy on defending points that no-one calls into question, you defend the ones that people question or attack. That's actually how an informal conversation evolves, and a forum wall is precisely that. This is not a formal debate, and I'm not particularly ineresting one.

But all this is really irrelevant because of where this all started. Your inital attack on my third post in the thread entirely ignores the purpose of that post. That post was responding to the allegation that what I would want was nothing like Miller, so the post was there to merely summarize the changes I would advocate in order to demonstrate how different the results would be. It was not a post meant to argue for each and every point (and even so, I provided small explanations of the "why" for each change).

...you realize just stating your opinion doesn't make it so, right?

Sure. Obviously, I'm talking to plenty of people that disagree with me. But I thought a forum was about different opinions and people engaging them in a sort of informal discussion. I guess I was wrong.

 

[dpbrave84]

everyone is entitiled to their own opinion...but from what i have seen most ppl enjoy this movie...actually the lines in this movie where greatly entertaining, even though they where streight out of the graphic novel...i find it funny however that ppl who detest this movie still make a very strong commitment to go on message bords and nitpick....if u hated it so much why do you even watse your time criticisizing the film, i mean i didnt like ghost rider that much and i stay away from that forum, because i dont even feel the need to discuss it...so with that said there must have been something about the film that still draws ppl to want to go out of their way to make a point about how bad it was....that never made any sense to me

 

[FatalEnergy]

I personally liked the graphic novel more than the movie. The novel lets you imagine and create your own vision.

 

[Nivek]

everyone is entitiled to their own opinion...but from what i have seen most ppl enjoy this movie...actually the lines in this movie where greatly entertaining, even though they where streight out of the graphic novel

ALOT of people really like it, no doubt. As for the lines, alot of the "cheezy" ones are directly tied to the Legend.

...i find it funny however that ppl who detest this movie still make a very strong commitment to go on message bords and nitpick....if u hated it so much why do you even watse your time criticisizing the film, i mean i didnt like ghost rider that much and i stay away from that forum, because i dont even feel the need to discuss it...so with that said there must have been something about the film that still draws ppl to want to go out of their way to make a point about how bad it was....that never made any sense to me

Same as you, I was incredibly let down by Ghost Rider, to the point that I dont even like talking about it because it it draws out alot of hostility. But 300 has everything I didn't find in Ghost Rider (engaging story, threatning bad guys, decent FX, honest coolness factor) or other recent comic adaptions.

As far as these guys, theres always a couple people on any board, and if a film is succesful, people fixate on it and pick at it. Now if it has fan approval, big box office, and is really fresh and different to the non-comic reading general public (like 300) then you hear really wacked out stuff from people.

 

[Manhunter]

...Furthermore, I should feel free to post an opinion, substantiated or not...But I thought a forum was about different opinions and people engaging them in a sort of informal discussion. I guess I was wrong.

You confuse your opinion with fact and you hope that repeating it ad nauseam, will convince the rest of us to do the same.

Quoting a line and then claiming it's simply terrible is not an example of substantiation. In order to achieve that, you'd have to explain why it's terrible, which you failed to do so.

Hence the lack of actual discussion.

The problem isn't with the movie it's with you. You walked into the theatre expecting Gladiator pathos, and instead you got FM's 300. That's like walking into a chocolate shop and getting all pissy with the owner because he doesn't have any caramel apples. The owner isn't incompetent in some way for not providing you with what you want, you're the fool for shopping in the wrong store.

 

[Manhunter]

ALOT of people really like it, no doubt. As for the lines, alot of the "cheezy" ones are directly tied to the Legend.

I was shocked to learn the "Come and get them!" phrase was coined by Leonidas, and it's the official motto of the 1st Greek Army Corps to this day.

 

[Nivek]

You confuse your opinion with fact and you hope that repeating it ad nauseam, will convince the rest of us to do the same.

Quoting a line and then claiming it's simply terrible is not an example of substantiation. In order to achieve that, you'd have to explain why it's terrible, which you failed to do so.

Hence the lack of actual discussion.

The problem isn't with the movie it's with you. You walked into the theatre expecting Gladiator pathos, and instead you got FM's 300. That's like walking into a chocolate shop and getting all pissy with the owner because he doesn't have any caramel apples. The owner isn't incompetent in some way for not providing you with what you want, you're the fool for shopping in the wrong store.

Well said, Sir.

 

[Agentsands77]

You confuse your opinion with fact

Asserting an opinion strongly doesn't mean I've ever pretended it's anything more than a personal judgment. Would you be happier if I attached an "IMO" to every statement I make?

and you hope that repeating it ad nauseam, will convince the rest of us to do the same.

I would be perfectly happy to stop posting - I would have stopped after my first post if someone hadn't responded to it. All of my posts in this thread have been responses to questions or attacks on my posts, not attempts to flood this thread with my perspective.

You want me to stop repeating my opinion? Stop asking about it and/or attacking it. I'm more than willing to say, "We just see it different ways" and depart from this thread, but I'm going to respond when the invitation is made.

Quoting a line and then claiming it's simply terrible is not an example of substantiation. In order to achieve that, you'd have to explain why it's terrible, which you failed to do so.

You asked for an example. Not an explanation. But if you want the latter: First and foremost, the line is unintentionally hilarious because of the sexual meaning that is almost to easy to lay on top of it. Second, and on a more technical leve, the line is grotesquely overstated. The same point is reiterated over and over in different sentences (even in the same words!). The best way to make a poignant line is to try and keep it concise - saying it over and over again merely dilutes the effect the line desires to have.

The problem isn't with the movie it's with you. You walked into the theatre expecting Gladiator pathos, and instead you got FM's 300. That's like walking into a chocolate shop and getting all pissy with the owner because he doesn't have any caramel apples.

From my perspective, it was closer to me walking into McDonald's expecting to dine on filet mignon. My expectations were out of whack, sure, but on my side of things, there is a case to be made as to whether McDonald's should exist to begin with.

My hopes for this film were too high. So much of the advance word on this film was amazingly stellar, and I think it jacked up my expectations beyond what Snyder's film was prepared to deliver. The way some of the advance reviews were treating 300, you'd think this movie was the definitive filmmaking triumph of the last thirty years. I think, along with that, I started to think that Snyder's film may have fixed some of the flaws I thought existed in the graphic novel, which was a pretty nieve idea, but it was in the back of my mind nonetheless.

In the end, you've seen my remarks as to what I think would need to be addressed to make 300 a great film, and it's not like I would abandon Frank Miller's graphic novel in the process. As a film, 300 never would have been, never should have been, more than a grand, mythic retelling of a historical event. But in the end, the film adapted the graphic novel in a way that didn't work for me and lost some of the things I liked about the graphic novel.

 

[Manhunter]

I can't imagine 300 being any sort of smash success, so it's likely that WATCHMEN may be put on hold. Again.

Still, Zack's comments are encouraging. I'm not totally enthralled with the guy (I'm still dubious as far as his talent goes), but I know he's going to do a respectful version, at the very least.

02/12/2007post#13

You had your mind made up before you even walked into the theatre, making any further discussion rather pointless.

 

[Nivek]

02/12/2007post#13

You had your mind made up before you even walked into the theatre, making any further discussion rather pointless.

Sheesh. Now since it was obviously is a critical, commercial, and fan raving success, I guess there is nothing more to add.

From my perspective, it was closer to me walking into McDonald's expecting to dine on filet mignon. My expectations were out of whack, sure, but on my side of things, there is a case to be made as to whether McDonald's should exist to begin with.

No, you obviously have issues if a simple statement like that makes you ask "why McDonalds should exist to begin with". Something like that is VERY telling about the person. Yeah... I think we are done here...

Now, back to the GN to Movie comparisons...

 

[Agentsands77]

02/12/2007post#13

You had your mind made up before you even walked into the theatre, making any further discussion rather pointless.

Actually, that quote says absolutely nothing about how good I thought 300 would be. Saying "I can't imagine 300 being any sort of smash success" doesn't say anything about the quality, merely a reading of how popular it would be among general masses (something I clearly misjudged).

I don't understand why you're being quite so vigilant about trying to undermine me. Why is a less-than-praiseworthy perspective of the film so offensive?

No, you obviously have issues if a simple statement like that makes you ask "why McDonalds should exist to begin with". Something like that is VERY telling about the person. Yeah... I think we are done here...

You entirely missed the metaphorical meaning of that statement. My statement had very little to do with McDonalds at all.

 

[Star]

I'm not responding to any arguments that may/may not be going on, haha, I just wanted to give my opinion on the comic/movie comparison:

As far as visually, it is pretty much EXACT. Anyone who has it can justify this, so many of the scenes are perfectly replicated that I can't find any reason to complain.

As far as the story, they added all the scenes with the queen (she was on like, one page in the comic), which i liked... being a girl myself, i liked having someone to relate to on screen. (Not that I didn't like the spartans but still.) Unless I'm not remembering properly, Theron (the corrupt council member who Gorgo slept with) wasn't in the comic at all.

I also liked how they didn't include the scenes where Stelios was getting beaten up by the Captain because he fell/when the Captain was getting beaten up by Leonidas because he wouldn't stop beating Stelios. I was never a fan of those scenes, it took the protagonists and although it was an example of their 'spartan ways' I still never really liked them.

Other then those differences, it was pretty much exactly the same.

For those of you who haven't read it, I took a few pictures of my comic so you can see how awesomely alike they are...(Sorry, No scanner.)

If this isnt allowed, a mod can edit this.

 

[Manhunter]

I'm not responding to any arguments that may/may not be going on, haha, I just wanted to give my opinion on the comic/movie comparison:

As far as visually, it is pretty much EXACT. Anyone who has it can justify this, so many of the scenes are perfectly replicated that I can't find any reason to complain.

As far as the story, they added all the scenes with the queen (she was on like, one page in the comic), which i liked... being a girl myself, i liked having someone to relate to on screen. (Not that I didn't like the spartans but still.) Unless I'm not remembering properly, Theron (the corrupt council member who Gorgo slept with) wasn't in the comic at all.

I also liked how they didn't include the scenes where Stelios was getting beaten up by the Captain because he fell/when the Captain was getting beaten up by Leonidas because he wouldn't stop beating Stelios. I was never a fan of those scenes, it took the protagonists and although it was an example of their 'spartan ways' I still never really liked them.

Other then those differences, it was pretty much exactly the same.

For those of you who haven't read it, I took a few pictures of my comic so you can see how awesomely alike they are...(Sorry, No scanner.)

If this isnt allowed, a mod can edit this.

Couldn't agree more, as far as adaptations go, Snyder has achieved an unprecedented level of "faithfulness."

 

[Blips]

The only omission I miss is the line "Be strong" right before Leonidas is shot up with arrows. In the movie he still yells out "My Queen. My wife. My love." but not the final part. I can understand the filmmakers justifying the omission. The audience has been shown Queen Gorgo is a strong character that can take care of herself, but it would've been a wonderful closing moment for the character.