Why Can't DC Get it right?

[Red Mask]

I never believed in the Trinity. DC has so many superheroes who could fill in that type of power. Even Green Lantern could take the place of Wonder Woman or Batman.

 

[Heretic]

I never believed in the Trinity. DC has so many superheroes who could fill in that type of power. Even Green Lantern could take the place of Wonder Woman or Batman.

The Trinity is the Trinity because of their Q rating, not their powers. They are the most well known heroes on the planet, thats all that means. And no, Green Lantern is not in that league.

 

[BlackLantern]

not even Kyle

 

[Red Mask]

The Trinity is the Trinity because of their Q rating, not their powers. They are the most well known heroes on the planet, thats all that means. And no, Green Lantern is not in that league.

But if DC did promote more of its other heroes, they could fill those shoes just the same. Captain Marvel, Zatanna, Green Lantern, Captain Atom, Flash, Green Arrow, Dr. Fate, Mr. Terrific, etc. They just don't know what to do with them!

 

[BlackLantern]

I don't buy it....the audience just is conditioned a certain way....any DC project and the same questions always come up "where's Superman? where's Batman"??

 

[Docker2.0]

It kind of is...but DC should get on the ball.

The thing is, DC has the trinity. Marvel cant mess with that, and likely will never have a bigger trinity to point to. However, there are obvious issues with Wonder Woman.

Outside of the trinity, DC is in big trouble. Punisher became well known in the general public before his movies came out. Wolverine did as well. Marvel has a ton of second tier characters that are semi-known to the general audience. DC has...nothing. Aquaman is considered a joke. Flash is viewed as slightly better, though his logo is often confused with Flash Gordon. Hawkman's biggest general audience claim to fame was as a numbskull in a series of comedy commercials. Plastic Man would have to be a comedy. The rest of the B-list heroes are copies of their A-list heroes.

DC SHOULD be doing more, I'm not denying that. I believe that a Vertigo Films division would be the way to go in the short term. I think offbeat unknown characters and concepts on tv could help. I'm not sure that there is much demand for a bunch of C-list superhero movies.

That said...apparently the next Avatar takes place under water. I GUARANTEE that after that, Marvel will move on Namor and DC will move on Aquaman. Instead, DC should jump out ahead of Avatar...and shoot an absolutely epic film with NO goofiness with top of the line technology, and schedule the release a few months before Avatar 2.

I'm all for a Wonder Woman movie, but everyone has their own specific idea for what it should be, and if the actress has slightly shorter hair or some other ridiculous difference, the fanboys trash it and deem the movie to be the worst thing since Hitler.

DC had a trinity. Batman is still top gun, Superman is still good but seem to be corny thanks to the MTV crowd, and WW has just lost it all due to DC/WB lack of anything to do with her in the last couple of decades. Say what you will about Marvel, but Spidey, X-men, Ironman, Hulk..................they have a lot more weapons to choose from than DC. Let's be real, when it comes to comic movies, Batman and Spiderman are the top 2 when it comes to popularity no question, then there's everyone else. WW could have stayed up top but due to lack of doing anything you have her losing in popularity contest to Storm and that's from comic fans, who are notorious for dissecting any little argument to a t....which says a lot. If you ask me, WW has left DC's trinity decades ago and has been replaced by GL or Flash.

 

[Heretic]

No...after all of these decades, Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are COMPLETELY ingrained in society. The Superman shield is possibly the most recognized logo on the planet. You can not duplicate that in a few years, or even decades.

For instance...take Marvel's Trinity. Spider-Man and Hulk are certainly up there. Otherwise, who do they have that are in the league of DC's Trinity? YES, Marvel has a better B squad, and C squad...heck, Marvel's D squad is likely as recognizable as DC's B squad. However, Wolverine has only been well known for a few decades in the general public, so old people have no clue who he is. Heck, much of the public only recognizes Wolverine as Hugh Jackman, and would not know the comic book look of his. Captain America has slipped in public consciousness over the past few decades, and he is likely more well known among older people than children.

The point is...to be in that top tier of most recognizable characters, you have to be very famous for several decades. No one can top Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. It will likely be this way forever.

 

[BlackLantern]

Heretic is dead on

 

[Docker2.0]

No...after all of these decades, Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are COMPLETELY ingrained in society. The Superman shield is possibly the most recognized logo on the planet. You can not duplicate that in a few years, or even decades.

For instance...take Marvel's Trinity. Spider-Man and Hulk are certainly up there. Otherwise, who do they have that are in the league of DC's Trinity? YES, Marvel has a better B squad, and C squad...heck, Marvel's D squad is likely as recognizable as DC's B squad. However, Wolverine has only been well known for a few decades in the general public, so old people have no clue who he is. Heck, much of the public only recognizes Wolverine as Hugh Jackman, and would not know the comic book look of his. Captain America has slipped in public consciousness over the past few decades, and he is likely more well known among older people than children.

The point is...to be in that top tier of most recognizable characters, you have to be very famous for several decades. No one can top Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. It will likely be this way forever.

You can be known but how many people actually like Superman and WW? Again, it's Bats and Spidey and then everyone else. And what do you consider B squad? I honestly think WW is B list but for some strange reason she's in this "trinity" that isn't even all that much liked by the general public. And you say WOlverine has been liked in the past few decades....well that's all it takes. Marvel has overexposed dude so much, that he's recognized world wide....WW....as stated she used to be popular but now.....most people don't even know her real name.

 

[Heretic]

You can be known but how many people actually like Superman and WW? Again, it's Bats and Spidey and then everyone else. And what do you consider B squad? I honestly think WW is B list but for some strange reason she's in this "trinity" that isn't even all that much liked by the general public. And you say WOlverine has been liked in the past few decades....well that's all it takes. Marvel has overexposed dude so much, that he's recognized world wide....WW....as stated she used to be popular but now.....most people don't even know her real name.

Wolverine is NOTHING compared to worldwide recognition of Wonder Woman. It is not even close.

If I had to be the one making the decisions, itd go something like this

A-list:
DC: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman
Marvel: Spider-Man, Hulk, I'm going to say Captain America (not for long though...Wolverine will eclipse him fairly soon, if not already)
Second tier:
DC: Robin, Supergirl, Superboy, Aquaman, Flash
Marvel: Wolverine, Punisher, Ghost Rider, Daredevil, Iron Man
Third tier:
DC: Green Lantern (this low because of multiple GL's, no exposure to general public), Captain Marvel (everyone thinks his name is Shazam), Green Arrow, Hawkman, Swamp Thing
Marvel: Thor, X-Men (as a group), Fantastic 4 (as a group), She Hulk

I put zero thought into this list...I'm sure that I forgot some and made some mistakes on placement in ranks.

 

[Octoberist]

man, you're system is so..I don't know...i just disagree. Strongly.

To me, A List are character that have transcended comics and into the public's eye. If you said Clark Kent to some Joe Smo on the street, he knows it's Superman even if he's not a comic book geek.

2nd Tier are characters that are popular amongst comic fans but has low exposure to the public. Now this can change depending in certain situations ala movies. For example, to me Iron Man was 2nd tier but thanks to the movies, he has gone up dramatically. But then again, characters like Ghost Rider are still aren't A Listers either. I think it has to do with the overall boost publicly and comic wise. That's why I don't count Blade as an A list either.

3rd tier are underused or obscured characters.

so....

A List: Superman, Batman, Spider-Man

2nd Tier: Green Lantern, Thor

3rd Tier: Nova

On the path to A List: Iron Man

 

[Heretic]

Well, I'm just giving more divisions that you are....adding fewer people to each list in order to separate more guys rather than having all marvel characters in one of three groups.

I'm fine either way...it's neither here not there. I just dont think that you can put Green Lantern and Robin on the same scale of recognition.

 

[marcvader]

I would put WW and Cap as equal.

 

[lespaul59]

Some of you self-loathing comic book fans need to understand that The Losers, Swamp Thing, Stardust, A History Of Violence etc ARE comic books. You can keep jumping through hurdles...but they are still comics and that isnt changing.

I love how it's "Marvel releases movies through different studios" followed by "Stardust was released by a different studio so it doesnt count".

Just really...any excuse to not count these things as comic book movies...

You guys would disown an Oscar award winning Maus film because it doesnt count unless there are superheroes (and none of those indie superheroes either, only Marvel and DC count as being real). It's the classic syndrome of thinking that the genre is not worthy of anything greater than Nic Cage eating jellybeans. It's kind of sad that 12 pages in and we are still seeing people deny that A History Of Violence, Road To Perdition and V For Vendetta actually exist as comic books.

I'm not saying the comics you listed aren't comic movies but rather a lot of fans wouldn't know they are if it wasn't for the branding. I wasn't saying Stardust doesn't count as a comic movie but rather it was put out by a DC imprint but at the same time it wasn't put out by WB. In fact I would argue Stardust doesn't count because it's not a comic but rather an illistrated noval that was first released in comicbook format. I have both the paperback and Vertigo TPB versions and the only difference in the two are the Vertigo TPB has the illistrations by Charles Vess. And as I said in my last reply I still think Marvel Studios is leaps and bounds ahead of WB/DC. While the fact remains the only big name character WB/DC has coming out considering what we know right now is Green Lantern, Batman 3 and Superman. As much as I like BM and SM I want to see some of the other DC characters also. I wonder if the DC animated movies doing so good has effected live action movie in a good or bad way?

 

[dnno1]

...The thing is, DC has the trinity. Marvel cant mess with that, and likely will never have a bigger trinity to point to...

DC's Trinity

Marvel's Knock-off Squad

Although Marvel has tried and would love to have their own Trinity, this is about the best they could get as fare as sales and marketing:

Marvel's Real Trinity

 

[Lord Blackbolt]

You need to take Hulk out of that three....I think Wolverine knocked him off Marvel's Trinity.... or maybe it was Ironman.

 

[Heretic]

You need to take Hulk out of that three....I think Wolverine knocked him off Marvel's Trinity.... or maybe it was Ironman.

DC got their Trinity after decades and decades of comics, cartoons, toys etc. You dont just "replace" one of them...

Hulk is the second most recognizable character for Marvel. Old fogies at the rest home know who he is...very young children know who he is. Women and men...Hulk is universal...like Superman (though to a far lesser extent).

Iron Man has been known by the general public for a couple of years. Old people likely have no idea who he is. He still is not marketed to children the way Hulk is. Wolverine has greater penetratiuon with the general public than Iron Man...but I still think that his comic book version (not Hugh Jackman) would not be identifiable to an older crowd. Wolverine came to prominence when I was young, so it is safe to assume that most men in their 30's could look at Wolverine interior art and know who it is. Women in that bracket might not instantly know...they would likely guess Wolverine because they are Hugh Jackman fans, but they may also guess Wolverine for Ripclaw or any number of other characters...kids are certainly aware of who Wolverine is. The issue would be the older crowd, especially women.

 

[Red Mask]

I don't buy it....the audience just is conditioned a certain way....any DC project and the same questions always come up "where's Superman? where's Batman"??

Then say good-bye to any other superhero film projects. They're only good enough for DVD release at this rate.

 

[baerrtt]

The problem I've always had with the WW in the Trinity thing is that as iconic as the character is it gives comic fans the false impression that she's as untouchably popular as Batman and Superman (to a lesser extent) are.

And if this was the case why does she, to this day, only have one solo title which has never been consistently successful and after the 70s tv show why had there been no attempts to relauch her in the multimedia world barring the JL cartoons which were only watched by fanboys in the end?

 

[chiefchirpa]

Marvel's strength is in the number of B-C-D listers that can actually become movie making opportunity even though they stink on comic business. Who knows that Blade whose comics languish has a relatively good run? How about Ghost Rider; even if the first movie fails Sony is trying for another chance. It's amazing to see Marvel is sitting on a mountains of defined characters (but crappy comics universe/rogues) and most of them aren't legacy characters.

Yeah DC have more variety of subjects thanks to Vertigo & Wildstorm than Marvel. Yet at the end of the days what people remember more are superhero varieties and names like Ghost Rider & Blade than subjects like the Losers or V for Vendetta. Instead of filming more Vertigo titles, WB should start giving chance to big name superhero franchise like the Flash or Wonder Woman, then to lesser names like Hawkman or Green Arrow. The Losers? Loan it to some other studios.

 

[Micromind]

The problem I've always had with the WW in the Trinity thing is that as iconic as the character is it gives comic fans the false impression that she's as untouchably popular as Batman and Superman (to a lesser extent) are.

And if this was the case why does she, to this day, only have one solo title which has never been consistently successful and after the 70s tv show why had there been no attempts to relauch her in the multimedia world barring the JL cartoons which were only watched by fanboys in the end?

WW had television series in past, then WW was part of Superfriends, and comics were in print though with less copies as compared to other A listers,
they got her in Justice League comics, then WB tried to get her movie going, but Whedon just could not think of anything interesting and the project got delayed, then WB animated WW movie was released which was a critical and commercial success and was well received by fans, and WW was going to be in JL Mortal movie which got cancelled, now WB is agin exploring the possibility of getting her movie on Big screen.

All this, because character is still a popular in masses.

 

[chamber-music]

To be honest most the people who have heard of Wonder Woman are from those remember seeing or hearing about the old tv show. Most people under the age of 30 I know have never heard of her or know little nothing about her.

The character may be well known in America but the characters global recognition has been on the slide since the 70s show ended. She is not that well known anymore. Most of the kids who watched stuff like the justice league cartoon were probabley watching for Batman/Superman more tham Wonder Woman.

 

[REDophile]

I'd just like to say I agree that the notion of DC characters are too god-like and have little depth, whereas the Marvel ones are more realistic, doesn't hold up anymore.

Outside of being a GL, Hal Jordan is a raging drunk, cocky test pilot with personal demons, and haunted by his father dying in a crash. That is supposedly the Hal we'll see in the movie.

The Flash is more than simply the guy that runs fast. Barry Allen, prior to getting doused in chemicals, is an absent-minded, perpetually late police scientist. You can do just as much with a Flash movie as you can with Iron Man or the Hulk, pertaining to the human element. There's the theme of losing track of time caught up in a world obsessed with speed.

I realize its not that easy to just make a film adaptation like that, especially when WB is the only studio that can deal with DC characters, and Marvel produces its own flicks. But now that DCE is formed, and there are countless superheroes on screen, WB is still lagging. They have GL next year, which is something not Superman or Batman, so maybe that's the sign of something.

 

[Rumpy Bulge Dubz]

The Flash is more than simply the guy that runs fast. Barry Allen, prior to getting doused in chemicals, is an absent-minded, perpetually late police scientist. You can do just as much with a Flash movie as you can with Iron Man or the Hulk, pertaining to the human element. There's the theme of losing track of time caught up in a world obsessed with speed.

good....no...GREAT! posting here

especially the bold

 

[GL1]

GL lost me at Spielberg, if he wanted to get in to the super hero genre, he would have done so by now

I maintain the main problem is that a super hero film is looked at, by Hollywood, as a product and not a film

I'm sorry that you saw it as name dropping, I thought of it as leveraging the backgrounds and interests and connections of talented creators, and I think I addressed your exact concern, albeit obliquely. Also, fans look at the films the same way. Ang Lee's Hulk, despite being a great film, sucks as a superhero product, and was commercially panned appropriately.

GL, how do you expect anyone to fork over the dosh for THREE proper budgeted JL films without seeing a dime in return in between them?

Its not going to happen...

Today? No, it won't, but if everything in steps 1-4 happened first, yes, people would give a LOTR-level budget to JLA.

GL at least approached the question without getting his undies in a tissy. (Crook, Batman, batlovescatDC, or Sawyer) Bravo!

Many thanks, kind sir.

To be honest most the people who have heard of Wonder Woman are from those remember seeing or hearing about the old tv show. Most people under the age of 30 I know have never heard of her or know little nothing about her.

The character may be well known in America but the characters global recognition has been on the slide since the 70s show ended. She is not that well known anymore. Most of the kids who watched stuff like the justice league cartoon were probabley watching for Batman/Superman more tham Wonder Woman.

All of that is true, but Wonder Woman is still more popular, well known and recognized than, say, Iron Man or Wolverine, who are currently more popular with 18-34 year olds. Part of this is because she is the most well known female superhero, so whenever someone thinks female superhero... they think Wonder Woman:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_impact_of_Wonder_Woman

Even if they' aren't familiar with her, her image and name are widely known to non-comics fans, and it endures. Hulk had a TV show to, but Wonder Woman, for various reasons, endures, is constantly referenced, imitated and etc. Spider-Man, Batman and Superman are on this level of popularity. Wolverine, Hulk and Iron Man are getting there. No other superhero comes even close to that level of cultural significance.