Why Can't DC Get it right?

[The Batman]

GL at least approached the question without getting his undies in a tissy. (Crook, Batman, batlovescatDC, or Sawyer) Bravo!

 

[The Batman]

They are owned by the same company so I never understood that licensing thing. Like for whatever reason, WW can't appear on Smallville becuase they "have a movie in the making" bs excuse. They haven't used the character in live media for almost 30 years. It makes no sense.

Actually...its not BS. The movie division is not the only division to do this. Batman villains werent allowed to appear on "JLU" because of "The Batman"
Cartoon. When the Aquaman TV show was in development, they removed AQ from the JLU cartoon as well. The only reason Bart is called "impulse" on Smallville is because the movie division wont let him be called Flash.

As for Wonder Woman, its been a longstanding agreement that WW cant appear on a show unless she's a lead character, which is why she didnt appear in the Batman Beyond episode with the JL.

 

[Heretic]

Sounds like over protecting to the point of harm if you ask me.

No one is going to see a movie trailer and think "that guy was on Smallville two years ago and that episode was lame...I'm not seeing this movie".

 

[The Batman]

Sounds like over protecting to the point of harm if you ask me.

No one is going to see a movie trailer and think "that guy was on Smallville two years ago and that episode was lame...I'm not seeing this movie".

Its lame, but it exists.

 

[dnno1]

You need to take Hulk out of that three....I think Wolverine knocked him off Marvel's Trinity.... or maybe it was Ironman.

As far as Comic Books go, Wolverine is actually #3 in sales over all with Hulk currently at #8 and The Amazing Spiderman at #9. Iron Man is at #22. If you consider the film franchises and their revenue Wolverine (in his solo movie) made the least money of the four.

 

[Heretic]

dnno1, that proves absolutely nothing. I can show you plenty of sales reports that will show you that Spawn and Lady Death are the biggest selling duo in comics...

The point is not necessarily sales. Wonder Woman rarely has great comic sales...it's instead about a lifetime of marketing, products and other factors that cause the public (over several generations) to be aware of a character.

Hulk has had that...Wolverine is on his way, but has only really started in the grand scheme of things. Iron Man was a blip on the radar until a couple of years ago.

But wait...according to my research...Youngblood is bigger than the X-Men. There are sales reports to prove it.

 

[Rumpy Bulge Dubz]

just because one title outsells another title, doesn't make those characters more popular over all. Youngblood can sell a billion copies a week and X Men 1 copy a week and X Men will still be more popular by name than Youngblood

 

[Heretic]

just because one title outsells another title, doesn't make those characters more popular over all. Youngblood can sell a billion copies a week and X Men 1 copy a week and X Men will still be more popular by name than Youngblood

My point exactly.

 

[dnno1]

dnno1, that proves absolutely nothing. I can show you plenty of sales reports that will show you that Spawn and Lady Death are the biggest selling duo in comics...

The point is not necessarily sales. Wonder Woman rarely has great comic sales...it's instead about a lifetime of marketing, products and other factors that cause the public (over several generations) to be aware of a character.

Hulk has had that...Wolverine is on his way, but has only really started in the grand scheme of things. Iron Man was a blip on the radar until a couple of years ago.

But wait...according to my research...Youngblood is bigger than the X-Men. There are sales reports to prove it.

Um... that's nice that you did some research on your own, and I wouldn't mind seeing what you found, but Spawn and Lady Death (not to mention, Youngblood) are not Marvel Comics properties and should have no relevance in this discussion. I was trying to find out who would be Marvel's equivalent to DC's Trinity based on popularity of the comic sales of their franchises in contrast to their respective film franchises. Spawn and Lady Death shouldn't figure into that. BTW, although, Wonder Woman is not as popular a comic as say a Superman, Batman, or a Green Lantern, she does appear in "Justice League of America", which does have top 20 sales (not to say that she doesn't do that in her own title from time to time). She also gains merit, because she has successfully been in a title since 1940 (that's 70 years or more - something maybe only Superman and Batman can lay claim to).

I chose IcV2's top 300 Comics Actual because they base their data on estimates of comic sales from Diamond distributors, one of the largest comics distributors in North America. Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, Image, Devil's Due, Archie, Aspen, Dynamite Entertainment and Gemstone distribute 100% of their comic store orders through Diamond, so I feel more comfortable using those numbers to get a good idea about market trends in the comics industry.

 

[super85]

wrong, wrong and .....oh yea...wrong

sorry, but you're way off on that one

Collin Farrel gave a solid performance as Bullseye, every scene he was in he stole it. From start to finish, and "Bring Me To Life" and "My Immortal" are two excellent tracks by Evanescence

Now we are just fighting about opinion. I thought those songs were flavour of the month crapola and Farrel was pure cheese.

 

[BlackLantern]

No one is going to see a movie trailer and think "that guy was on Smallville two years ago and that episode was lame...I'm not seeing this movie".

people are morons....you'd be surprised....did you know Ed O'Neil lost a part in "Flight of the Intruder" because of Married With Children??



I agree on the music, but I liked Farrell.....

 

[marcvader]

The music was horrible but Farrell was great I thought.

 

[Heretic]

Um... that's nice that you did some research on your own, and I wouldn't mind seeing what you found, but Spawn and Lady Death (not to mention, Youngblood) are not Marvel Comics properties and should have no relevance in this discussion. I was trying to find out who would be Marvel's equivalent to DC's Trinity based on popularity of the comic sales of their franchises in contrast to their respective film franchises. Spawn and Lady Death shouldn't figure into that. BTW, although, Wonder Woman is not as popular a comic as say a Superman, Batman, or a Green Lantern, she does appear in "Justice League of America", which does have top 20 sales (not to say that she doesn't do that in her own title from time to time). She also gains merit, because she has successfully been in a title since 1940 (that's 70 years or more - something maybe only Superman and Batman can lay claim to).

I chose IcV2's top 300 Comics Actual because they base their data on estimates of comic sales from Diamond distributors, one of the largest comics distributors in North America. Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, Image, Devil's Due, Archie, Aspen, Dynamite Entertainment and Gemstone distribute 100% of their comic store orders through Diamond, so I feel more comfortable using those numbers to get a good idea about market trends in the comics industry.

Actually, I did no research whatsoever. And the Youngblood/Spawn crap was to point out absurdities...

You are right...Wonder Woman is in the Trinity due to 70 years of exposure to children and adults. People in rest homes read Wonder Woman as children. Iron Man and Wolverine simply do not have that sort of generational reach. Sadly, Marvel doesn't really have a Trinity, not comparable to DC's. Captain America is the closet they have to reaching older demographics...but his exposure to young demos in recent decades has been appalling. Wolverine will become worthy of being in a Trinity in another decade or so maybe...

Marvel has instead done something arguably smarter. Rather than building up a few guys to truly iconic worldwide status, they've built up an entire roster as mid-level pop culture symbols. None of them have the reach of DC's Trinity...but as a group they destroy DC. X-Men have such a changing roster that as a group, they can never match Superman...but the name itself is growing like crazy. Even Fantastic Four, a group of cultural nobodies, have been dusted off and given a few movies. Punisher, Ghost Rider etc etc....

That's DC's problem. They cherish their Trinity, but neglect the rest of their roster. Green Lantern, Flash, Aquaman, Captain Marvel...these guys aren't even in the same league as Punisher, Wolverine etc

What DC needs to do is realize that some of what they are doing hasn't worked for decades, and wont in the future. DC considers Martian Manhunter to be one of their top 7 heroes. If you move him over to Marvel, he wouldn't make the top 50. DC continues to push Captain Marvel, despite the fact that they can't really call him that. The answer is to stop pretending that Martian Manhunter matters, and start calling Captain Marvel Shazam. Like a sports team...look over your roster and see who has growth potential.Those who do, give them the cartoons, movies, tv shows, solo comics etc to where they can grow adequately. Those that dont, move them to the bench. This is not a short process. In order for Green Lantern to be on par with Wolverine it will take DECADES of exposure...so imagine what they have to do with The Question!!!

The point is, smarten up DC, and get to work.

 

[The Batman]

It wont take much for GL to be popular. people know him from superfriends and jl....if the movie does well, it can cement him. its not like gl is completely unknown

Honestly, characters like Aquaman,Flash, Captain Marvel, and Supergirl do well for characters who havent gotten proper exposure. I'd say they're as well known as any lesser tier marvel property, imo. The problem is that they're not particulary liked by anyone, and all it takes is the right flick to make them popular.

 

[Heretic]

It wont take much for GL to be popular. people know him from superfriends and jl....if the movie does well, it can cement him. its not like gl is completely unknown

Honestly, characters like Aquaman,Flash, Captain Marvel, and Supergirl do well for characters who havent gotten proper exposure. I'd say they're as well known as any lesser tier marvel property, imo. The problem is that they're not particulary liked by anyone.

GL is popular with the general public? You mean that black guy from the cartoon? Or that young guy with the space suit looking thing? Or the dude with the bowl cut? Who exactly are you referring to?

Comic fans hate to admit this...but even characters like Green Lantern are NOTHING to the general public. I used to run a pop culture store in a tourist destination. I could not get rid of Green Lantern t shirts. Everyone asked who it was, since it was next to Superman and Batman and they were confused as to why they couldnt identify it. That's the same place where so many people pointed at Flash shirts and said "look, it's Flash Gordon".

Outside of comics fandom there is a vague remembrance of Green Lantern, maybe...but hardly anything I'd consider to be iconic. A movie will help that out by exposing the character to that market. One movie does not equal an icon though (case in point: Iron Man).

 

[Docker2.0]

To be honest most the people who have heard of Wonder Woman are from those remember seeing or hearing about the old tv show. Most people under the age of 30 I know have never heard of her or know little nothing about her.

The character may be well known in America but the characters global recognition has been on the slide since the 70s show ended. She is not that well known anymore. Most of the kids who watched stuff like the justice league cartoon were probabley watching for Batman/Superman more tham Wonder Woman.

Exactly! Ask a 10 year old who she is and they won't have a clue. Ask her who Wolverine is and she'd do the claw thing. WW has been around longer but the lack of not doing anything with her is what is killing the character and if she has her on movie made....guarantee you it'd be a bust no matter how true to the comics it would be. Heck her animated DVD started off good but fell short of studio expectations. She just hasn't been marketed at all, which is the problem with DC/WB. They don't market their characters well. They only use Superman and Batman to the point of overexposure and lately it's only been Batman. If GL bombed(and it won't)they can only look at themselves.

 

[Docker2.0]

GL is popular with the general public? You mean that black guy from the cartoon? Or that young guy with the space suit looking thing? Or the dude with the bowl cut? Who exactly are you referring to?

Comic fans hate to admit this...but even characters like Green Lantern are NOTHING to the general public. I used to run a pop culture store in a tourist destination. I could not get rid of Green Lantern t shirts. Everyone asked who it was, since it was next to Superman and Batman and they were confused as to why they couldnt identify it. That's the same place where so many people pointed at Flash shirts and said "look, it's Flash Gordon".

Outside of comics fandom there is a vague remembrance of Green Lantern, maybe...but hardly anything I'd consider to be iconic. A movie will help that out by exposing the character to that market. One movie does not equal an icon though (case in point: Iron Man).

Blasphemy!!! Seriously GL is well known and liked.

 

[The Batman]

GL is popular with the general public? You mean that black guy from the cartoon? Or that young guy with the space suit looking thing? Or the dude with the bowl cut? Who exactly are you referring to?

Comic fans hate to admit this...but even characters like Green Lantern are NOTHING to the general public. I used to run a pop culture store in a tourist destination. I could not get rid of Green Lantern t shirts. Everyone asked who it was, since it was next to Superman and Batman and they were confused as to why they couldnt identify it. That's the same place where so many people pointed at Flash shirts and said "look, it's Flash Gordon".

Outside of comics fandom there is a vague remembrance of Green Lantern, maybe...but hardly anything I'd consider to be iconic. A movie will help that out by exposing the character to that market. One movie does not equal an icon though (case in point: Iron Man).

Uh...yeah. Thats how people know GL, not to mention that GL was apart of the superfriends. Again, he may not be THAT popular with the gen public, but he definetely aint unknown. If you've watched cartoons in the past 10 years, you know GL. GL's at least as knownhe FF were before the movies came out.

 

[dnno1]

Actually, I did no research whatsoever. And the Youngblood/Spawn crap was to point out absurdities...

You are right...Wonder Woman is in the Trinity due to 70 years of exposure to children and adults. People in rest homes read Wonder Woman as children. Iron Man and Wolverine simply do not have that sort of generational reach. Sadly, Marvel doesn't really have a Trinity, not comparable to DC's. Captain America is the closet they have to reaching older demographics...but his exposure to young demos in recent decades has been appalling. Wolverine will become worthy of being in a Trinity in another decade or so maybe...

Marvel has instead done something arguably smarter. Rather than building up a few guys to truly iconic worldwide status, they've built up an entire roster as mid-level pop culture symbols. None of them have the reach of DC's Trinity...but as a group they destroy DC. X-Men have such a changing roster that as a group, they can never match Superman...but the name itself is growing like crazy. Even Fantastic Four, a group of cultural nobodies, have been dusted off and given a few movies. Punisher, Ghost Rider etc etc....

That's DC's problem. They cherish their Trinity, but neglect the rest of their roster. Green Lantern, Flash, Aquaman, Captain Marvel...these guys aren't even in the same league as Punisher, Wolverine etc

What DC needs to do is realize that some of what they are doing hasn't worked for decades, and wont in the future. DC considers Martian Manhunter to be one of their top 7 heroes. If you move him over to Marvel, he wouldn't make the top 50. DC continues to push Captain Marvel, despite the fact that they can't really call him that. The answer is to stop pretending that Martian Manhunter matters, and start calling Captain Marvel Shazam. Like a sports team...look over your roster and see who has growth potential.Those who do, give them the cartoons, movies, tv shows, solo comics etc to where they can grow adequately. Those that dont, move them to the bench. This is not a short process. In order for Green Lantern to be on par with Wolverine it will take DECADES of exposure...so imagine what they have to do with The Question!!!

The point is, smarten up DC, and get to work.

I actually thought you had done some research (at least it seems you did by what you have written). I think that you are looking at it from a business strategy stand point and that is fair enough, because the paths that you have described is indeed the approaches that both companies have taken. What I was posting was a supposition based on your statement about Marvel not being able to have a Trinity that could compare to DC's (I am kind of paraphrasing what you said). My original claim was that even though Marvel has tried to put together a knockoff team that would mimic DC's Trinity with Ms. Marvel, Sentry, and Moon Knight, the closest they could get to it based on the sales of their character franchises is Spider-Man, Iron Man and the Hulk. Sure, the are in no way the same as DC's Big Three as far a iconicity (for crying out loud these guys had a 25 year or more head start), but that wouldn't stop them from featuring them as flagship characters (if they wanted to). Note that you could still have a flagship character/flagship characters even though your business strategy is to market all of your product lines. A perfect example of that is GM, who has the Cadillac brand as their flagship brand, but still intends to market all of their products. Trinity (Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman) are basically just flagship chracters for the DC label. Marvel could just as easily market Spider-Man, Iron-Man, and the Hulk (or Wolverine) as a triad of flagship chracaters (out of the 5000 or so that they have) for the Marvel brand.

 

[Heretic]

I'll give you guys the fact that Wonder Woman has not been given the exposure to young girls recently that she should. Still...I think you are underestimate how well known she is.

Marvel changes their "flagship" characters so often, that you really cant call anyone flagship except for Spidey and Hulk...Deadpool has...what??? 4 monthly series right now??? I think that hurts their cause, because they'll bleed the life out of a character and make him useless. It's a balancing act.

 

[Red Mask]

Those who do, give them the cartoons, movies, tv shows, solo comics etc to where they can grow adequately. Those that dont, move them to the bench. This is not a short process. In order for Green Lantern to be on par with Wolverine it will take DECADES of exposure...so imagine what they have to do with The Question!!!

The point is, smarten up DC, and get to work.

Or just keep them in TV shows because that works best for them.

 

[Crook]

I'll give you guys the fact that Wonder Woman has not been given the exposure to young girls recently that she should. Still...I think you are underestimate how well known she is.

I find it highly unlikely little girls cannot recognize the name or image of Diana. She is so ingrained within pop culture that it'd be impossible not to be exposed to her in some form or another.

 

[Heretic]

I find it highly unlikely little girls cannot recognize the name or image of Diana. She is so ingrained within pop culture that it'd be impossible not to be exposed to her in some form or another.

Yeah, Wonder Woman is so well known that you almost dont have to promote her anymore...though I;m sure there are still Wonder Woman childrens toys and clothes...

Marvel hasn't reached that level with anyone but Spidey and Hulk because they are more interested in lifting their entire roster up as opposed to making Daredevil (or whoever) an icon.

 

[Docker2.0]

Actually Cap and Iron Man are up there. THat's why I for one was not surprised at the success of IM and IM2....... and I also think GL will be just as huge if done right.

 

[GL1]

I find it highly unlikely little girls cannot recognize the name or image of Diana. She is so ingrained within pop culture that it'd be impossible not to be exposed to her in some form or another.

To nitpick, I would suggest that the secret identity of Wonder Woman, like the vast majority of superheroes, are almost completely unknown to (or in Wondy's case, forgotten by) the general public. I think the only exceptions are Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent, though Peter Parker is getting there.