Why Can't DC Get it right?

[GL's Light]

People have been predicting the "bubble will burst" since at least 2003.

The point about making superhero films that feel different is a good one. I think that's a key factor in staving off genre fatigue, as well as, incidentally, being good for the genre from a creative point of view.

 

[jmc]

I'm sure the same was said of the Western or the Musical, hell the horror genre is all but dead. If we keep getting pelted with superhero film after superhero film fatigue will eventually set in and the GA will vote with their wallets, the comic fans base is not big enough to keep the genre afloat. Next year is gonna be the real test, if all three superhero flicks next year are only moderate in success, or even crash and burn, that to me will show the genre is in a decline. Not only that, with the exception of TDK there's nothing new being brought to the genre.

 

[Tony Stark]

Well I definitely read articles talking about the superhero fatigue after TIH failed to make a splash. And then TDK came and smashed THAT thought.

I think it could work if they all felt different. TDK certainly felt different from IM and TIH, which were more of "superhero" movies in feel and formula.

Well that and TIH only came one month after IM. That was probably too close....and obvious Hellboy2 suffered majorly being released one week before TDK.

I'm not sure what happend with TIH, but it had a lower opening than FF:ROTSS, and I think everyone agrees that TIH is a better movie by far.

Other than TS3, I've never seen real big numbers out of mid June releases. I think early May, Memorial Day weekend, last weekend in June and mid-July are the prime dates.

TIH also suffered in that the studio didn't make it clear that it was a reboot, and played it off as some kind of hybrid recast, pseudo sequel. The film starts out with Banner in South America fleeing the government, which is where he left off in the first movie.

Also they should have used IM's success to market TIH, and put a clip of the special appearance in the trailer. They did this later on, but only after the film had already opened in theaters.

 

[jmc]

Well I definitely read articles talking about the superhero fatigue after TIH failed to make a splash. And then TDK came and smashed THAT thought.

I think it could work if they all felt different. TDK certainly felt different from IM and TIH, which were more of ''superhero'' movies in feel and formula.

Well that and TIH only came one month after IM. That was probably too close....and obvious Hellboy2 suffered majorly being released one week before TDK.

That's the thing, a lot of these film are starting to feel the same with the exception of TDK. Marvel especially I think are gonna do more harm to themselves in the long run with their dictatorial approach to their films.

 

[dnno1]

Well I definitely read articles talking about the superhero fatigue after TIH failed to make a splash. And then TDK came and smashed THAT thought.

I think it could work if they all felt different. TDK certainly felt different from IM and TIH, which were more of "superhero" movies in feel and formula.

Well that and TIH only came one month after IM. That was probably too close....and obvious Hellboy2 suffered majorly being released one week before TDK.

I remember reading those articles as well and It hasn't really happened. To be honest we haven't even reached the apex of the pyramid yet and what is helping to keep the genre alive is the advent and advances of new cinematographic technologies such as CGI, performance capture, IMAX and 3D. This is adding a new sense of realism to science fiction and has kept people coming to the box office.

 

[J.Howlett]

jmc,

That's the thing, a lot of these film are starting to feel the same with the exception of TDK. Marvel especially I think are gonna do more harm to themselves in the long run with their dictatorial approach to their films.

On the money. They've been playing it safe for way too long. On one of these properties, they need to get really ambitious. Maybe that's Avengers but they don't stretch themselves like DC has...even if DC's failed more than succeeded. That's one of the reasons why I admire Watchmen more than actually think it's a good film. It went for the throat and just whiffed.

 

[The Batman]

humanist,

They did do V for Vendetta and Constantine. It's not like they haven't tried it yet. Personally, I just think WB/DC is more cautious than Marvel. That's all. Yes, they whiffed big time on Hex and Losers but V was a critical hit. Constantine, while not great, was solid. It's more interesting than a lot of Marvel's properties.

Superman Returns was the set back. I love the film but I understand the disappointment. Had it not been a set back, you would've had Superman and Batman viable and relevant at the same time. They've got another chance in 2012.

I'm just not understanding the doom and gloom when it comes to DC right now. Marvel may be doing it at a record pace but let's really sit back and think about what has been the truly great Marvel films since Spider-Man 2 in 2004?

Of the top of my head, only one: Iron Man (2008).

DC: V, Watchmen (on pure ambition and scope), Batman Begins, and the Dark Knight. That's nothing to laugh at.

That's why I dont take bashers seriously. I honestly think most of them are people who like to complain, or marvel fans who come to gloat. How else can people be so ignorant to whats been going on? DC Entertainment is clearly an attempt to get these flicks up and running, but fans still wanna act like its 1998. The restructuring has just happened. We have no idea of what they're planning to do yet. People just need to calm down.

 

[Tony Stark]

That's why I dont take bashers seriously. I honestly think most of them are people who like to complain, or marvel fans who come to gloat. How else can people be so ignorant to whats been going on? DC Entertainment is clearly an attempt to get these flicks up and running, but fans still wanna act like its 1998. The restructuring has just happened. We have no idea of what they're planning to do yet. People just need to calm down.

And nobody takes you seriously because you just pull out your TDK card whenever someone tries to make a salient point.

Going to comicon and saying "we have some other projects but we can't talk about it" is the pinnacle of what's wrong with Warner/DC. But they get away with it because shills like you just go bash people on message boards and hide behind their screen name.

Then you get the intellectuals who say "well the only thing Marvel put out of substance since Spider-man 2 is Iron Man." We're talking about freaking comic book movies. As sophisticated as you guys like to think the Dark Knight is, at the end of the day it's about a guy running around in tights.

You have bashed Marvel far more than any of your so-called "Marvel trolls", and then you go post some jealous tirades.

All I want is to see Warner get some of the other characters on screen. GL is a good start, but it's not nearly enough.

 

[The Batman]

I gotta wonder what people would say if DC did pump everything out like Marvel does and we got a Wonder Woman movie on par with "Fantastic Four" or a Flash movie on par with "Ghost Rider", would people be blaming DC for doing exactly what the fans wanted them to do in the first place?

People say "At least they tried", but thats kinda ridculous.

Cause its kind of a naive fantasy to think WB alone could have the productivity of Marvel and the various distribution studios while maintaining a high level of quality. Marvel has several studios working on their heroes, and even then, a lot of them disappoint.

 

[J.Howlett]

Tony,

But, it is a start. If Lantern is a hit, you can pretty much guarantee that DC will open the pantry.

If we're really lucky, Lantern, Batman 3, and Man of Steel will all critical and box office hits. Then, the sky's the limit for DC.

I just think Marvel is moving a tad too quickly. Iron Man 2 is proof.

 

[The Batman]

I just think Marvel is moving a tad too quickly. Iron Man 2 is proof.

I think Marvel Studios is doing a few questionable things, such as lowballing their actors and rushing Iron Man 2. If Iron Man 2 were allowed to develop like Favs wanted it to, maybe it wouldve actually been memorable. To say Marvel is doing it "right" is questionable to me as well, IMO. Again, a few of their movies couldve been a lot better. Fantastic Four, Hulk, and Daredevil couldve been great, but all three had mediocre movies. And what they've done with Punisher is a travesty. Its not enough to say "At least they made em." You have four great franchises on the shelf due to bungling them.

 

[Hound55]

I think Marvel Studios is doing a few questionable things, such as lowballing their actors and rushing Iron Man 2. If Iron Man 2 were allowed to develop like Favs wanted it to, maybe it wouldve actually been memorable. To say Marvel is doing it "right" is questionable to me as well, IMO. Again, a few of their movies couldve been a lot better. Fantastic Four, Hulk, and Daredevil couldve been great, but all three had mediocre movies. And what they've done with Punisher is a travesty. Its not enough to say "At least they made em." You have four great franchises on the shelf due to bungling them.

You're reading some people's posts in here very different from me...

I don't even see how anyone can doubt that Marvel is doing a significantly better job at marketing than DC is. And THAT'S what people are saying.

People who respond with "And how'd that work for you... TDK!" That's not responding to the marketing point at hand. It's ignoring the issue that's been raised and countering with an example of a single movie which many perceive to be better than Marvel's catalogue...

The point of the matter is DC could certainly learn a thing or two from Marvel in terms of forward promotion at a convention level. There's no point getting all ********* over it, because it's only a single issue in a grander scheme.

Feel glad that Nolan is directing such fine work and that the worst thing about DC is their ability to market their properties and finding avenues for their less well known characters... Let the baby have it's bottle, so to speak.

 

[The Batman]

I'm not talking about Comic Con, I'm talking about how Marvel and the various studios have gone about making some of their movies. I'm failing to see how your reponse to my post deals with that.

In fact, I've more than had enough with peoples ability to miss the point of my posts, and I've explained them time and time again.

 

[Heretic]

I gotta wonder what people would say if DC did pump everything out like Marvel does and we got a Wonder Woman movie on par with "Fantastic Four" or a Flash movie on par with "Ghost Rider", would people be blaming DC for doing exactly what the fans wanted them to do in the first place?

People say "At least they tried", but thats kinda ridculous.

Cause its kind of a naive fantasy to think WB alone could have the productivity of Marvel and the various distribution studios while maintaining a high level of quality. Marvel has several studios working on their heroes, and even then, a lot of them disappoint.

When Ghost Rider was terrible, Marvel fans said "I hope they make a sequel so it can be better"

When Elektra was terrible, marvel fans said "Elektra deserves a reboot so it will be better"

When both Fantastic Four movies were garbage, marvel fans said "a third film will be awesome, let's reboot!"

And the same can be said for every bad movie ever made for a Marvel character....

So, if DC were to pump out movies about Wonder Woman, Booster Gold, Elongated Man and Black Canary, my assumption is that fans would simply be glad that the movie exists and hope for sequels.

 

[The Batman]

When Ghost Rider was terrible, Marvel fans said "I hope they make a sequel so it can be better"

When Elektra was terrible, marvel fans said "Elektra deserves a reboot so it will be better"

When both fatastic Four movies were garbage, marvel fans said "a third film will be awesome, let's reboot!"

And the same can eb said for every bad movie ever made for a Marvel character....

So, if DC were to pump out movies about Wonder Woman, Booster Gold, Elongated Man and Black Canary, my assumption is that fans would simply be glad that the movie exists and hope for sequels.

Wow...thats just...wow. I'd rather have no Wonder Woman movie if they cant get it right the first time. And DC characters have bad enough reps as it is without having a terrible movie.

 

[Heretic]

There was one thing I loved more than batman as a kid...GI Joe. I saw the previews for that movie and knew it would be an insult...so I refused to give it my money and will never see Rise Of Cobra. I won't watch it. I have no interest in seeing my favorite property mishandled so badly.

Most comic fans arent like that though. They'll pay for a movie they know will be bad so they can help bankroll a sequel (as if the makers would change anything after you just stupidly gave them your money for crap...)

 

[Tony Stark]

I think Marvel Studios is doing a few questionable things, such as lowballing their actors and rushing Iron Man 2. If Iron Man 2 were allowed to develop like Favs wanted it to, maybe it wouldve actually been memorable. To say Marvel is doing it "right" is questionable to me as well, IMO. Again, a few of their movies couldve been a lot better. Fantastic Four, Hulk, and Daredevil couldve been great, but all three had mediocre movies. And what they've done with Punisher is a travesty. Its not enough to say "At least they made em." You have four great franchises on the shelf due to bungling them.

You keep saying it wasn't memorable, but then you keep talking about it...lol!

Lowballing their actors? You mean like giving Robert Downey Jr. and Gweneth Paltrow raises?

Success cannot be guaranteed. Sure there are some movies like the FF movies that deserved more attention than they got. On the other hand I thought both Hulk movies were done very well. My conclusion is the public isn't interested in the Hulk the way they are Spider-man, Batman and Iron Man. I'm glad those movies were made though.

Marvel has 4 great fanchises on the shelf of secondary characters. DC has Superman on the shelf.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I think Marvel Studios is doing a few questionable things, such as lowballing their actors and rushing Iron Man 2. If Iron Man 2 were allowed to develop like Favs wanted it to, maybe it wouldve actually been memorable. To say Marvel is doing it "right" is questionable to me as well, IMO. Again, a few of their movies couldve been a lot better. Fantastic Four, Hulk, and Daredevil couldve been great, but all three had mediocre movies. And what they've done with Punisher is a travesty. Its not enough to say "At least they made em." You have four great franchises on the shelf due to bungling them.

Well personally I see it as a glass half-empty/glass half-full. Marvel (well technically studios that own Marvel licenses) has been making an effort to turn out films, good or bad. And DC fans are looking to DC wanting there heroes and are disappointed that only Batman and Superman have been the only superheroes this last decade to get a film.

But at the same time, WB didn't want to make those films because few have proven successful. Batman was good, but Superman underperformed which obviously had an effect on WB's plans. I really believe that Superman Returns plus the 2007 writers strike put DC's superhero film plans on hold for a few years. WB didn't care about making DC films. What Geoff Johns said at the GL panel about them not wanting the rings proved that point.

 

[Anita18]

I don't even see how anyone can doubt that Marvel is doing a significantly better job at marketing than DC is. And THAT'S what people are saying.

People who respond with "And how'd that work for you... TDK!" That's not responding to the marketing point at hand. It's ignoring the issue that's been raised and countering with an example of a single movie which many perceive to be better than Marvel's catalogue...

The point of the matter is DC could certainly learn a thing or two from Marvel in terms of forward promotion at a convention level. There's no point getting all ********* over it, because it's only a single issue in a grander scheme.

Feel glad that Nolan is directing such fine work and that the worst thing about DC is their ability to market their properties and finding avenues for their less well known characters... Let the baby have it's bottle, so to speak.

Sure DC is behind Marvel in getting juicy tidbits out at the convention level, but who's to say that they HAVE to get juicy tidbits out at the convention level? That's what Marvel simply chose to do.

Although I guess since DC is also a comics publisher, they are obligated to have something at the convention level, but...whatever.

Marketing is a lot more than just getting the word out at conventions. I bring up TDK not because of the quality, but because it is the current opening weekend record holder. WB/DC must be doing marketing somewhat right if they were about to achieve that...

There are many ways to go about marketing your property. As long as it gets awareness out at the time of release, it all comes out in the wash.

 

[The Batman]

Well personally I see it as a glass half-empty/glass half-full. Marvel (well technically studios that own Marvel licenses) has been making an effort to turn out films, good or bad. And DC fans are looking to DC wanting there heroes and are disappointed that only Batman and Superman have been the only superheroes this last decade to get a film.

But at the same time, WB didn't want to make those films because few have proven successful. Batman was good, but Superman underperformed which obviously had an effect on WB's plans. I really believe that Superman Returns plus the 2007 writers strike put DC's superhero film plans on hold for a few years. WB didn't care about making DC films. What Geoff Johns said at the GL panel about them not wanting the rings proved that point.

No one should give out gold stars and say "Hey, BOTH those FF films sucked, but at least you put em out!" What good does that do? Now I have two FF i have no desire to watch or buy on DVD.

Again, neither companies do anything "Right" in the grand scheme of things. They just make different kinds of mistakes from the other.

Sure DC is behind Marvel in getting juicy tidbits out at the convention level, but who's to say that they HAVE to get juicy tidbits out at the convention level? That's what Marvel simply chose to do.

Although I guess since DC is also a comics publisher, they are obligated to have something at the convention level, but...whatever.

Marketing is a lot more than just getting the word out at conventions. I bring up TDK not because of the quality, but because it is the current opening weekend record holder. WB/DC must be doing marketing somewhat right if they were about to achieve that...

There are many ways to go about marketing your property. As long as it gets awareness out at the time of release, it all comes out in the wash.

your post just reminded me of this poll Newsarama did:

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/SDCC-News-Roundup-Marvel-DC-100726.html

Considering the way DC's been taking a thrashing here, the results were surprising. Apparently to a majority DC did do a better job on the convention floor. I'm not interested in badgering DC/WB based on one aspect of what they do.

 

[Hound55]

Sure DC is behind Marvel in getting juicy tidbits out at the convention level, but who's to say that they HAVE to get juicy tidbits out at the convention level? That's what Marvel simply chose to do.

Although I guess since DC is also a comics publisher, they are obligated to have something at the convention level, but...whatever.

Marketing is a lot more than just getting the word out at conventions. I bring up TDK not because of the quality, but because it is the current opening weekend record holder. WB/DC must be doing marketing somewhat right if they were about to achieve that...

There are many ways to go about marketing your property. As long as it gets awareness out at the time of release, it all comes out in the wash.

Agreed. It IS a very small part of marketing. TDK went the viral method as well, like Cloverfield before it and it worked out well... but it's undoubtedly a mistake to not bring SOME forward sizzle at an event like this which so clearly hones in on your target demographic.

My point was I can't believe that people who are DC fans wouldn't be willing to accept this and acknowledge that DC can improve in that regard.

If all the people behind DC were to do were to disregard their own shortcomings and say "Market? Pfft. We made TDK." Then they're not going to get any better. You have to acknowledge the things you don't do so well in order to be able to confront these issues to see a marked level of improvement.

 

[SuperFerret]

I liked both Fantastic Four movies. Sure, they had their flaws, but there was more good than bad.

 

[Tony Stark]

I liked both Fantastic Four movies. Sure, they had their flaws, but there was more good than bad.

Alot of people did, and while far from perfect, I admit they are a guilty pleasure for me, but I guess it's not cool to say that here. I own both films on blue ray. yeah they could have been done better, but they are underrated. I felt the same with Ghost Rider.

I didn't care for Daredevil, but I know alot of people liked that one.

Heck I know alot of people who like Superman Returns, but I didn't, but according to the Batman's logic it should have never existed.

 

[Crook]

When Ghost Rider was terrible, Marvel fans said "I hope they make a sequel so it can be better"

When Elektra was terrible, marvel fans said "Elektra deserves a reboot so it will be better"

When both Fantastic Four movies were garbage, marvel fans said "a third film will be awesome, let's reboot!"

And the same can be said for every bad movie ever made for a Marvel character....

So, if DC were to pump out movies about Wonder Woman, Booster Gold, Elongated Man and Black Canary, my assumption is that fans would simply be glad that the movie exists and hope for sequels.

What. The. F**k.

This is a terrible stance to take and a slap in the face to artists that strive to actually put out a quality product for the masses. Not one decent fan in the world is "glad" they have an atrocious movie to represent their hero.

DC is an incredibly more cautious studio than Marvel. They don't hit the reset button as feverishly as they do. Getting back-to-back Hulk, Punisher, Fantastic Four, and soon to be Ghost Rider films, shows you they're just churning these things out until it finally sticks.

DC fans don't have that luxury. If any of their second-tier hero films tanked or panned as bad as the aforementioned Marvel films...that is it. They are done indefinitely. You can count on those fans waiting another generation or two at the earliest, to even get rumors that a new film is planned.

I'm only gonna speak for myself here, but DC or Marvel, I'd rather not get a film than get a half-assed one. No exceptions.

 

[SuperFerret]

It depends on what you consider "half-assed". I don't think that something like The Dark Knight should be the benchmark for these types of movies. Iron Man or Spider-Man should be what a superhero movie should aim for, in tone, entertainment value and quality.