Superman Returns Why Don't Some Superman Fans Like Superman Returns?

In the context of that line though, that is right before he amnesia kisses her. We have a completely different context in SR. If they were in a relationship, why would she be jealous. SHe's only jealous at the end of SII b/c they cannot be togther. ANd yet she understands. If she was simply jealous w/o understanding she'd just be mad at him. But instead she is upset b/c she UNDERSTANDS that they can't be together.
And how in the blue hell do you think she'd react if he said that "they cannot be together" FOR FIVE YEARS? And just because she understands, doesn't say anything for whether or not she'd tug at his heart strings just a wee tad because of how she feels about him (as evidenced by Routh's excuse given).
That's not really love.
Says who? You? What is and is not love is VERY UP FOR DEBATE, homeboy. You say potato...
It just seems the characteizations from SR are not about them being in love but about them being selfish and immature and not REALLY being in love. That was not the characterization from the other films. THey were really in love.
Love isn't always this ticky-tack Norman Rockwell rendition of how you THINK things might be. If they really weren't in love, then I doubt Superman just flew into space crying in one scene because he thought it'd look neat, nahmeen? And these two were still in love. The difference this time is that Lois had moved on, while Superman had the realistic response of having trouble adjusting to it. Did you expect him to just brush it off with a smile when he sees the woman he turned the world backward for happy with a new man? Because I sure didn't.
I disagree. I find their characterizations to be immature and very selfish and not really indicative of love, where as STM and SII characterized them as REALLY being in love and feeling love for each other.
Throwing the immature and selfish buzzwords around are going to hold zero weight with me because you obviously missed the entire point of the predicament of the entire relationship drama of the film. The entire deal was about him being placed in an extremely uncomfortable situation emotionally and having to try and deal with it...something he's only had to deal with once (the death of Jonathan). And as for them not "really being in love" give me a break. Lois showed great concern for him by making Richard turn the plane around to save him, diving in the ocean to retrieve him, visiting him in the hospital, and finally eating crow by writing a rebuttal piece to her Pullitzer winner in the end of the film. And that's just Lois's actions...
 
I just find many of the events inconsistent with the previous films and it is nearly impossible to know which events are in continuity and which aren't.

Plus, as I've said before, we view STM and SII differently so it only makes sense that that affects the way we interpret SR. I also think that our own personal beliefs and world view affect how we view SR.
Pretty much. Who knows, maybe in the sequel, they'll iron out the kinks for you a bit more. I just didn't approach SR thinking of it as the completely true rendition of Superman I've been looking for. Even though S:TM and SR are two of my favorite movies of all time, I still think NO ONE in any form has portrayed Superman the way I would should I be in charge. It's just one person's rendition each time out.
 
And how in the blue hell do you think she'd react if he said that "they cannot be together" FOR FIVE YEARS? And just because she understands, doesn't say anything for whether or not she'd tug at his heart strings just a wee tad because of how she feels about him (as evidenced by Routh's excuse given).

I'm sure it would be difficult, but SUperman is able to overcome the DIfficult situations to do what is right, and that's just not what happens in SR, yet it is what happens in STM and SII. SUperman's emotions don't cripple him into inaction.
Says who? You? What is and is not love is VERY UP FOR DEBATE, homeboy. You say potato...

Plenty of people actually define love as caring for someone else more than caring about yourself. If Lois really loves Superman then she'd understand and be able to support his leaving, even if it does hurt. And Superman, if her really loves Lois will be able to say goodbye to Lois even if it is difficult and painful. They both would understand that it is all for the greater good, which is the point of Superman stories to begin with.
Love isn't always this ticky-tack Norman Rockwell rendition of how you THINK things might be.

What is it sometimes then? A selfish, selfserving feeling of wanting to posses someone else? WHat else is love if it's not caring about someone else more than you care about yourself? Have you ever been in love? DIdn't you care about that person more than you cared about yourself?

What I'm describing is a mature and caring way of treating someone that you love, and how love is comonly defined. Selfishness is not a by product of love. Selfishness comes from somewhere else, not from love.
If they really weren't in love, then I doubt Superman just flew into space crying in one scene because he thought it'd look neat, nahmeen?

I'm just looking for consistency in the portrayal. But his actions toward Lois don't indicate that he does love her, otherwise he would have told her goodbye and explained himself.
And these two were still in love. The difference this time is that Lois had moved on, while Superman had the realistic response of having trouble adjusting to it. Did you expect him to just brush it off with a smile when he sees the woman he turned the world backward for happy with a new man? Because I sure didn't.

No, and I've never suggested that he would. I'm just saying that his actions later as you describe are inconsistent with his uncaring and disrecpectful action of not saying goodbye.
Throwing the immature and selfish buzzwords around are going to hold zero weight with me because you obviously missed the entire point of the predicament of the entire relationship drama of the film. The entire deal was about him being placed in an extremely uncomfortable situation emotionally and having to try and deal with it...something he's only had to deal with once (the death of Jonathan).

No, I got that. But he did act immature and selfish and that is out of character. If you don't think so then that is fine. But we all know that what Superman not saying goodbye was wrong and inconsiderate. The thing is that this is COMPLETELY against his character and the stated motivation for him acting this way is also COMPELTELY against character. It seemed to me the point of the film was also to make Superman no better a person than the less-than-average joe on the street and that is just the WRONG characterization of Superman as well.
And as for them not "really being in love" give me a break. Lois showed great concern for him by making Richard turn the plane around to save him, diving in the ocean to retrieve him, visiting him in the hospital, and finally eating crow by writing a rebuttal piece to her Pullitzer winner in the end of the film. And that's just Lois's actions...

SInce she showed such great concern later in the film why wouldn't she have shown that same concern towards him if he came to say goodbye and explain that he had a mission in space that was incredibly meaningful to him?

The fact that you see a caring person in Lois in this part seems to be incongruent with the person you are suggesting Lois is in the first part of your post. "And how in the blue hell do you think she'd react if he said that "they cannot be together" FOR FIVE YEARS?"
 
Pretty much. Who knows, maybe in the sequel, they'll iron out the kinks for you a bit more.

W/o coming up with something really creative and moving outside the box, I don't have a lot of faith in the creative team.

I just didn't approach SR thinking of it as the completely true rendition of Superman I've been looking for.

Obviously, I didn't either. I actually had very low expectations and it was exactly what I expected to get.
Even though S:TM and SR are two of my favorite movies of all time, I still think NO ONE in any form has portrayed Superman the way I would should I be in charge. It's just one person's rendition each time out.

I understand what you are getting at, I just think that SR missed something essential about the character that STM and SII managed to get while still not being perfect.
 
I just lost a post here. But I've an idea. Probably not perfect. I think mego joe your beliefs in loving relationships are wonderful. But not all relationships are like that there's the one's that are abusive. However that's not the idea, which is, Superman or Clark is used to not telling people the whole truth about himself. Except his parents and even then there might be things he didn't tell. So he's used to not confiding in people. What if he followed that habit here? Just a thought.

Angeloz
 
It's not like I didn't like the movie. I thought it was great... as an Elseworld story.
 
I just lost a post here. But I've an idea. Probably not perfect. I think mego joe your beliefs in loving relationships are wonderful. But not all relationships are like that there's the one's that are abusive. However that's not the idea, which is, Superman or Clark is used to not telling people the whole truth about himself. Except his parents and even then there might be things he didn't tell. So he's used to not confiding in people. What if he followed that habit here? Just a thought.

Angeloz

And that is an interesting thought, but isn't that why in SII he doesn't get involved w/ Lois until he CAN be open and honest with her? And the same for the post-Crisis comics? And the reason he doesn't get involved seriously with Lois in the pre-Crisis comics?

Your reasoning is very sound and interesting- but applying this line of thinking seems to support that Superman WOULD be open and honest with Lois IF he were to become involved with Lois.

As for 'truly loving relationships' is it really a TRULY LOVING relationship if you are abusive to that person?

The thing is I think you have to believe that SUperman and Lois DO truy love each other and that b/c they are genuinely good people they would treat each other as such.

The drama of the pre-Crisis/ STM/ SII Superman/ Lois relationship is not that they don't know how to treat each other properly- it's that the circumstances of being him being Superman PREVENT him from committing to her.

Post-Crisis/ Lois & ClarK (TV) changed this aspect. They approached it from the perspective of how would it work IF he did commit to her. It didn't make the options mutually exclusive like the pre-Crisis/ Donner approach.

However, in each approach the characters, Superman especially characterized the same way. This SR version which seems to be about how they don't know how to treat each other changes something essential about Superman's character.

Good post Angeloz, that really digs deeper into the characters!! :)
 
I just lost a post here. But I've an idea. Probably not perfect. I think mego joe your beliefs in loving relationships are wonderful. But not all relationships are like that there's the one's that are abusive. However that's not the idea, which is, Superman or Clark is used to not telling people the whole truth about himself. Except his parents and even then there might be things he didn't tell. So he's used to not confiding in people. What if he followed that habit here? Just a thought.

Angeloz

As Mega Joe said, that is a really good post Angeloz that poses some VERY interesting questions about Superman in SR.
 
Because its DRY!!!



its TOO long

has not action!!

has no real climax!!

superman dies twice in two really long boring slow moving sequences that take forever to go anywhere

lois and superman can't have any romance

there is no ACTION!!!

its too loooong
 
It was on HBO tonight. They gave it two stars. I thought that was a little harsh, especially since that almost unwatchable Daredevil got three.
 
Daredevil had a lot of flaws. You may have personally liked it, but it was really bad for a lot of valid reasons. This is not to say that I have not enjoyed a few really bad movies from time to time.
 
Wow, I really liked Daredevil especially the Director's Cut.

It was ok, but not the huge improvement over the theatrical version some claim it is, it is definately the better version of the 2 though.

Neither version comes anywere near SR in terms of quality though IMO.
 
There seems to be an internet disease going around. Nobody seems to be able to spell the word DEFINITE.
 
And that is an interesting thought, but isn't that why in SII he doesn't get involved w/ Lois until he CAN be open and honest with her? And the same for the post-Crisis comics? And the reason he doesn't get involved seriously with Lois in the pre-Crisis comics?

These aren't "Superman Returns" though. Just because something happened in one place or fictional media doesn't make it true for all. Although there could be some overlap. ;)

Your reasoning is very sound and interesting- but applying this line of thinking seems to support that Superman WOULD be open and honest with Lois IF he were to become involved with Lois.

Was he involved with Lois? They had sex but we don't know the circumstances. It might have been a villains hijinks or red kryptonite. Or he stuffed up big time after beginning a relationship (from an old habit of acting and not explaining).

As for 'truly loving relationships' is it really a TRULY LOVING relationship if you are abusive to that person?

The thing is I think you have to believe that SUperman and Lois DO truy love each other and that b/c they are genuinely good people they would treat each other as such.

The drama of the pre-Crisis/ STM/ SII Superman/ Lois relationship is not that they don't know how to treat each other properly- it's that the circumstances of being him being Superman PREVENT him from committing to her.

Post-Crisis/ Lois & ClarK (TV) changed this aspect. They approached it from the perspective of how would it work IF he did commit to her. It didn't make the options mutually exclusive like the pre-Crisis/ Donner approach.

However, in each approach the characters, Superman especially characterized the same way. This SR version which seems to be about how they don't know how to treat each other changes something essential about Superman's character.

I'll point out if you've been hiding all your life it may take awhile to break that habit. Also we don't know if their relationship was truly loving (or what it was exactly). I trust Superman/Kal-El/Clark not to physically do or say things hurtful. But I'll admit I don't trust Lois as much. Also we don't know if she told him something that scared him or something beforehand. But really as I said he may have a habit of not telling people things because he had to stay hidden. He may not have broke the habit of that when he left.

Good post Angeloz, that really digs deeper into the characters!! :)

AVEITWITHJAMON said:
As Mega Joe said, that is a really good post Angeloz that poses some VERY interesting questions about Superman in SR.

Thanks. :)

Angeloz
 
These aren't "Superman Returns" though. Just because something happened in one place or fictional media doesn't make it true for all. Although there could be some overlap. ;)

Just using the notion of 'vague history' from STM and SII that is supposedly used as the basis for the world of SR.


Was he involved with Lois? They had sex but we don't know the circumstances. It might have been a villains hijinks or red kryptonite. Or he stuffed up big time after beginning a relationship (from an old habit of acting and not explaining).



I'll point out if you've been hiding all your life it may take awhile to break that habit. Also we don't know if their relationship was truly loving (or what it was exactly). I trust Superman/Kal-El/Clark not to physically do or say things hurtful. But I'll admit I don't trust Lois as much. Also we don't know if she told him something that scared him or something beforehand. But really as I said he may have a habit of not telling people things because he had to stay hidden. He may not have broke the habit of that when he left.

All the things you point out are why I want to know the context of their relationship. Otherwise, it just doesn't work on any level for me. It feels like I missed the first part of the story and only got the middle and can't really enjoy the rest of it, b/c it hinges so much on HOW he left.




Thanks. :)

Angeloz

Anytime.
 
It was on HBO tonight. They gave it two stars. I thought that was a little harsh, especially since that almost unwatchable Daredevil got three.
Heh heh heh. I actually can watch Daredevil. I think they are spot on with the two stars.
 
What's the story about QWERTY buggs0268? You won't be revealed to be Saph too? Sorry paranoia bug still affecting me. ;)

Just using the notion of 'vague history' from STM and SII that is supposedly used as the basis for the world of SR.

But not all of it. For instance it's not 1978 or 1984 also unofficially he didn't go away for 12 years to study at the Fortress (newspapers). As there's no Jeff East to Christopher Reeve transition.

All the things you point out are why I want to know the context of their relationship. Otherwise, it just doesn't work on any level for me. It feels like I missed the first part of the story and only got the middle and can't really enjoy the rest of it, b/c it hinges so much on HOW he left.

So you have a negative perception of things. No faith in him? Or allowances for mistakes? ;)


:)

Angeloz
 
^^^More signs of problems of the movie. Its all a mess, continuity or not that makes the whole movie not work. Just because i`m a Superman fan and was eager to see a Superman movie in the theater for the first time wont stop me from thinking at the moment the credits rolled that the movie got a lot of things wrong and didnt show Superman`s potential on screen.

It was a decent movie and possibly great if u compare to the other previous attempts to make a Superman movie. But that is not enough. I`m hard to please.

SINGER HAS A LOT TO PROVE TO ME IN THE SEQUEL.
 
^^^More signs of problems of the movie. Its all a mess, continuity or not that makes the whole movie not work. Just because i`m a Superman fan and was eager to see a Superman movie in the theater for the first time wont stop me from thinking at the moment the credits rolled that the movie got a lot of things wrong and didnt show Superman`s potential on screen.

It was a decent movie and possibly great if u compare to the other previous attempts to make a Superman movie. But that is not enough. I`m hard to please.

SINGER HAS A LOT TO PROVE TO ME IN THE SEQUEL.

Sometimes its better to fill in the blanks yourself IMO, i hate it when they spoonfeed us everything.
 
As the great Orson Welles said: I just draw the dots, the audience joins them up.
 
What's the story about QWERTY buggs0268? You won't be revealed to be Saph too? Sorry paranoia bug still affecting me. ;)



But not all of it. For instance it's not 1978 or 1984 also unofficially he didn't go away for 12 years to study at the Fortress (newspapers). As there's no Jeff East to Christopher Reeve transition.

Exactly my point. You can't know exactly, hence you have to make it up.
So you have a negative perception of things. No faith in him? Or allowances for mistakes? ;)

WIthout making stuff up completely out of thin air, the interpretation of the details in the story leads me down two similar paths.

1. THey were in a relationship and he just wasn't man enough to tell he the truth.

2. They weren't in a relationship and he just wasn't man enough to tell her the truth.

IMO, there isn't a lot of difference. Either way he has a moral and ethical obligation to explain his whereabouts to his sexual partner. THe movie even acknowledges this, otherwise he wouldn't have found it a difficult thing to do. They are both equally out of character though. If you are going to have some off the wall explanation in a sequel, I'm guessing it's a reactionary change to people not liking SR rather than the plan all along.

Mistakes? Fine. But they still have to be in keeping with the kinds of mistakes Superman would make.


:)
 

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