Superman Returns Why Don't Some Superman Fans Like Superman Returns?

[Angeloz]

Yes mentioning Greek Titans is just so bad.

Angeloz

 

[CGHulk]

Superman never feels like an outcast, maybe Singer does?

 

[LexCorp]

Superman never feels like an outcast, maybe Singer does?

Singer feels like a nazi!

 

[superbaby]

He just stole too much from the bible and other things.

prefect excuse for his sadistic need.
pissed off again when i saw the edited video clip post in that hater blog.
it wouldn't happen if singer didn't make it.

 

[Angeloz]

Singer feels like a nazi!

I presume that you're joking.

Angeloz

 

[LexCorp]

I presume that you're joking.

Angeloz

Your presumtions are spot on Angel

 

[Cyrusbales]

Superman never feels like an outcast, maybe Singer does?

The Marlon Brandon speech used in the films kinda does highlight the difference between supes and the humans. "you are not one of them."

 

[Angeloz]

The Marlon Brandon speech used in the films kinda does highlight the difference between supes and the humans. "you are not one of them."

Which was written for the 1978 film. Also I believe the seventies comics also had similar stuff but I'm not an expert on them.

Angeloz

 

[Cyrusbales]

^Exactly my point, it's not something new at all!

 

[LexCorp]

^Exactly my point, it's not something new at all!

Superman has never been one of them. Raised yes but he is not human.

 

[Angeloz]

Superman has never been one of them. Raised yes but he is not human.

Except imaginary and elseworld tales.

Angeloz

 

[LexCorp]

Except imaginary and elseworld tales.

Angeloz

Well yeah some circumstances have made him human.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Superman has never been one of them. Raised yes but he is not human.

Exactly, how some people cant get this is beyond me. Superman himself doesnt consider, er....himself.......human, he just feels he owe's an obligation to earth.

 

[Angeloz]

Exactly, how some people cant get this is beyond me. Superman himself doesnt consider, er....himself.......human, he just feels he owe's an obligation to earth.

He might sometimes. As he was raised as one and might forget. I think it might be complicated for him (psychologically and emotionally).

Angeloz

 

[El Payaso]

The Marlon Brandon speech used in the films kinda does highlight the difference between supes and the humans. "you are not one of them."

Agreed. And by that being in the movie, I'd say it's the sugary filmmakers intentions.

 

[El Payaso]

Not if he truly loves her and values her. Those are the actions of an immature and irresponsible jerk who really doesn't have a clue of how to treat another person.

So it's being a jerk if Superman doesn't tell Lois he's going away but it is not if he doesn't tell her he's going to manipulate her mind. Which is not a way to treat another person either.

MOre invented backstory to make sense of SInger's mish mash? Now he really was leaving forever? C'mon, I can make stuff up too.

I think it was clearly stated no one knew if he was going to be back. Martha said it.

Got his e-mail address?

haha?

SInce we're never going to be on the same page w/ S:TM and SII, we will never be able to argue from those points of reference and have any understanding.

Dodging?

Yet every question in the world as to why he couldn't tell Lois the truth.

He said he felt he wasn't going to be able to accomplish the bigger-than-Lois mission if he saw her once again before he left.

Forbidden by Jor-El, but not necessarily wrong.

It depends on what do you believe in. For certain religions, doing specific things are wrong and the same things are not wrong for others. In Superman's case, it was wrong to reverse time and he knew it.

Apparently you're the only one who believes this to be true.

Do I need sarcasm tags with you?

That's b/c they stole the ending for that story to use in the first one, plus (and stop me if you've heard this one before) he's human. But to add, a genuinely good human who is willing to save the life of the woman he loves even if it means defying Marlon Brando.

I get it. So Superman didn't do the same to bring others to life because he... stole the ending for that story???

Inside the fiction it's clear there are no "stories." Superman couldn't have been aware of what will be happening.

And no, he's not human. But yes, he makes mistakes; he have done it in STM, SII and SR. And always - naively, maybe - thinking he's doing the right thing.

He didn't simply 'quit' his mission as mandated by Jor-El, he gave up his powers that obligate him to that mission so that he could live a norman life.

So, i other words he had such a vital mission in his life as it is to protect the whole Earth and suddenly quit it because of his selfish personal satisfaction and by that letting any villiain - Zod or not Zod - to kill people as he wishes.

[sarcasm]Best decision in the world, not wrong at all. [/sarcasm]

If Zod and Co. hadn't been around then that would have been the end of SUperman. And Jor-El couldn't have been against it completely, otherwise he wouldn't have given him the means to eradicate his powers.

If it wasn't Zod, it was Lex Luthor, who had fled from jail by the time. If not Luthor, Robert Vaughn character, etc. Common criminals, etc etc. The world will be neeing Superman always.

Superman's free will was there. He was free to quit his mission and it was him and him alone who decided to recover his powers and leave Lois alone. Jor-El didn't tell him to be Superman again or to leave Lois.

Unfortunately, one of the biggest drawbacks of the Donner films are the mandates of Jor-El. Kind of takes away a lot of one's freewill. And only by the end of SII has he finally made that decision.

So you have problems with Donner movies. That could explain a lot about what you feel about SR.

It's just not executed well enough to make me believe that he REALLY cares, it's all just superficial and shallow characterization.

Maybe you want to refer to the acting?

Because the caring and concern of Superman for what he did to Lois are there al throughout the film.

NOpe, completely differenct actually.

I don't have to remind you again of the world elaboration, do I?

To bad he couldn't have been more like the average person who knows it's the his obligation to say goodbye in that kind of situation instead of being the gutless wonder of Bryan SInger's imagination.

Yeah, the average person with no super powers would not have been that great. That said, the average person makes mistakes too.

Stop me if you've heard this one before. And yet untrue.

Your second bare statement in one post? Prove it, then, as a conclusion you go 'not true'. Or start with 'not true' and then offer your views.

But yes, you apoligize Superman's actions because of filmmakers intentions in some movies but you don't apply the same for SR. Unethical immoral actions as mind manipulations are ok because Lester intended it to be ok. For SR, you merely see the character's actions. That is inconsistent.

El Payaso, you're the one that's got it wrong. The sugary intentions are what count.

Then count Singer's sugary intentions.

If you're life is so horrible that you can only see the worst in people, I feel truly sorry for you.

Lol

1.- You can see only the worst in Singer's intention, so say that to yourself first.
2.- I'm only for consistency. We either think Superman commits ugly mistakes in all of the movies or he's justifiable in all of them since the nature of the mistakes is comparable.
3.- Tell me you are not going to throw sentences for posterity in these posts. I won't be able to reply to "You know Payaso why do we fall?" and such with a straight face.

S:TM and SII give the viewer hope that one man with amazing powers can make a difference when committed to helping other people and will go to ANY extent to right a mistake. That's just not what SR is about.

And yet it what Superman does; saves people, makes mistakes and then tries to correct them.

 

[afan]

Exactly, how some people cant get this is beyond me. Superman himself doesnt consider, er....himself.......human, he just feels he owe's an obligation to earth.

For the sake of discussion don't we need to define the term.

Certainly he is not of this Earth, and his physiology is not of this Earth, hence the effect of the yellow sun. Are you limiting your definition of human purely to that aspect?

If so you are correct, argument is pointless; the facts speak for themselves, however he was raised by humans(damn good ones in fact) in an environment that is the classic American rural setting of Smallville a rural and bucolic environ, the breeding ground of strong "human" ideals.
Do you espouse that he conciously rejects any notion or concept of the influence of his upbringing, and that he in no way(intellectually) considers himself human?
Is nature that dominant over nurture?

 

[Angeloz]

He's not Homo Sapien (is that better?). I don't know of the latin name for Kryptonians (I wonder what they'd, the Earth humans, would come up with).

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

For the sake of discussion don't we need to define the term.

Certainly he is not of this Earth, and his physiology is not of this Earth, hence the effect of the yellow sun. Are you limiting your definition of human purely to that aspect?

If so you are correct, argument is pointless; the facts speak for themselves, however he was raised by humans(damn good ones in fact) in an environment that is the classic American rural setting of Smallville a rural and bucolic environ, the breeding ground of strong "human" ideals.
Do you espouse that he conciously rejects any notion or concept of the influence of his upbringing, and that he in no way(intellectually) considers himself human?
Is nature that dominant over nurture?

This panel from "The Man of Steel" says it all on this subject IMO.

WHile he's biologically Kryptonian, his emotions are human and that's what matters.

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON
Exactly, how some people cant get this is beyond me. Superman himself doesnt consider, er....himself.......human, he just feels he owe's an obligation to earth.


But he does consider himself one of us. He has all the emotions and lives in our world as one of us. Just b/c Jor-El told him he's not, doesn't mean he believed it. The whole point of Superman is that even though biologically he ISN"T human, b/c of his upbringing he actually IS.

 

[Angeloz]

I don't think that's true of all comic versions and I know some don't like Byrne. I'm not one of them.

Angeloz

 

[afan]

Mego Joe once more, we are in total agreement.

 

[mego joe]

So it's being a jerk if Superman doesn't tell Lois he's going away but it is not if he doesn't tell her he's going to manipulate her mind. Which is not a way to treat another person either.

No. In SII he HELPS Lois the only way he can at that poin. In SR he HURTS her. Diametrically opposed intentions.

I think it was clearly stated no one knew if he was going to be back. Martha said it.

Well, that's not something that's been discussed much, but it is really neither here nor there. If you care about somebody and love them, you say goodbye in that situation, period.

haha?



Dodging?

No just acknowledging that when I say apples you see oranges and when you say oranges I see apples.

He said he felt he wasn't going to be able to accomplish the bigger-than-Lois mission if he saw her once again before he left.

Proving he is being portrayed out of character, b/c Superman in ALL his incarnations is able to make the tough decision and overcome his fear and NOT hurt Lois.

It depends on what do you believe in. For certain religions, doing specific things are wrong and the same things are not wrong for others. In Superman's case, it was wrong to reverse time and he knew it.

Apples.

Do I need sarcasm tags with you?

SOmetimes, perhaps, apples and oranges you know.

I get it. So Superman didn't do the same to bring others to life because he... stole the ending for that story???

After watching the Donner cut of Superman II I would say 'Yes.' LEster and co had to come up with a new ending for SUperman II and they just weren't up to the task to have a really fantastic ending (not that turning back time was fantastic, just better than the amnesia kiss.)

However, they effectively portrayed that Supreman amnesia kissed her to aleviate her pain and undo the damage he was responsible for. No utlerior motives, no hidden selfish reason. That is not Superman. The end of Superman II is just not really good writing.

Inside the fiction it's clear there are no "stories." Superman couldn't have been aware of what will be happening.

Duh, but he's also a character written by people sometimes really well and sometimes not so well. The itentions were good, it was just goofy and 30 years later raises a lot of questions that people wouldn't have asked when it was first released.

And no, he's not human. But yes, he makes mistakes; he have done it in STM, SII and SR. And always - naively, maybe - thinking he's doing the right thing.

Yet he clearly knows it is wrong in SR to not say goodbye to Lois, otherwise it wouldn't have been 'difficult' to do.

So, i other words he had such a vital mission in his life as it is to protect the whole Earth and suddenly quit it because of his selfish personal satisfaction and by that letting any villiain - Zod or not Zod - to kill people as he wishes.

He had not bought into the mission yet. THat's what Superman II is about. It's a point early in his career where he hasn't bought in wholesale to what Jor-El has been preaching. And yes, if he wants to he can quit at any time and give up his powers and lead a normal everyday life, just as he did in "What Ever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow?"

[sarcasm]Best decision in the world, not wrong at all. [/sarcasm]

Without all the facts (Phantom Zone Villains running loose), it was a mistake, but otherwise there's no reason he can't give up his powers and live a normal life if that's what he wants to do.
[/quote]

If it wasn't Zod, it was Lex Luthor, who had fled from jail by the time. If not Luthor, Robert Vaughn character, etc. Common criminals, etc etc. The world will be neeing Superman always.
[/quote]

CHicken and egg. World was going along fine until Superman arrived and Luthor pulled the nuclear missile gag.

Superman's free will was there. He was free to quit his mission and it was him and him alone who decided to recover his powers and leave Lois alone. Jor-El didn't tell him to be Superman again or to leave Lois.

So why can't he quit if he wants to again?

So you have problems with Donner movies. That could explain a lot about what you feel about SR.

I've always had some problems with the Donner films, but they are completely different from my problems with SR. I still see SUperman in character in the Donner films, but not in SR. WHen you see oranges in the Donner films you also see oranges in SR. I see apples in the Donner films, but oranges in SR.

Maybe you want to refer to the acting?

No, it's the script and the approach to utilize vacant stares in lieu of actual meaningful dialogue.

Because the caring and concern of Superman for what he did to Lois are there al throughout the film.

Especially that part where he leaves for 5 years and doesn't say goodbye. That really shows how much he cares for her and the fruits of their relationship.

YOu know, so my wife will know that I love her as much as SUperman loves Lois, I'll away for a week on business and not call or tell her anything. Then when I come home, I'll say, "I'm sorry. I couldn't have gone away for a week if I'd come to say goodbye first. Oh and I'm always around, so don't feel bad."

I don't have to remind you again of the world elaboration, do I?

Cares so much that in fact, he never tells Lois WHY it was so hard. He chickens out and lets Clark do it.

Yeah, the average person with no super powers would not have been that great. That said, the average person makes mistakes too.

Ironically, the average person would have no-brained the goodbye thing. And Superman blew it.

Your second bare statement in one post? Prove it, then, as a conclusion you go 'not true'. Or start with 'not true' and then offer your views.

Enough you have become tiresome!

But yes, you apoligize Superman's actions because of filmmakers intentions in some movies but you don't apply the same for SR. Unethical immoral actions as mind manipulations are ok because Lester intended it to be ok. For SR, you merely see the character's actions. That is inconsistent.

THe difference is that the intentions of the filmmakes are diametrically opposed. Singer doesn't intend for his actions to be OK. He is purposely having Superman do the wrong thing and it is clear that Superman KNOWS it in the movie, thus the filmmakers knew. It is the opposite with the SUeprman II. It is not presented as a mistake, yet it is presented as a mistake in SR.

Then count Singer's sugary intentions.

That's the problem. Singer didn't have any sugary intentions.
[/quote]

Lol

1.- You can see only the worst in Singer's intention, so say that to yourself first.

Because that is what's there, the worst.

2.- I'm only for consistency. We either think Superman commits ugly mistakes in all of the movies or he's justifiable in all of them since the nature of the mistakes is comparable.

But I don't think they are comparable. Apples and oranges, remember.

3.- Tell me you are not going to throw sentences for posterity in these posts. I won't be able to reply to "You know Payaso why do we fall?" and such with a straight face.

No Soup for You!

And yet it what Superman does; saves people, makes mistakes and then tries to correct them.

Wrong. He saves people. Mistakes are not a core part of his characer. And he didn't correct them in SR. His mistakes in SR are uncorrectable. Bingo! We have a winner!!

 

[mego joe]

Mego Joe once more, we are in total agreement.

Want to make a Superman film together?

 

[afan]

OK, I'll bring the camera

 

[dr collossus]

I'm in.