Super Kal
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wow... never thought of it that way.
Superman Returns Why Don't Some Superman Fans Like Superman Returns?
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buggs0268
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Jor-El: "My son, by now you will have reached your 18th year, as it is measured on earth. By that reckoning, I will have been dead for many thousand of your years."
Hence, it would take him many thousand of our years to go there and come back.
Hence, it would take him many thousand of our years to go there and come back.
SuperMike335!!
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Ok, first off, I thought that the whole point of this thread was just for those of us who did not like SR to say what we did not like about it.
Why are the SR defenders coming on here to make excuses for the movie? Make a new thread for that purpose, and putting it in that one would be more constructive.
Those of us who do not like the movie should put critisism in thread titled like "what did you like about SR ", unless we have any positive stuff to say (there were a couple things I liked in it), we shouldn't give criticisms in such a threads either. To be fair.
This is a Thread intended for what we did not like about it. Why do others need to come here to defend it? This thread should just be a list of things people did not like about it. That is it. Instead in some places it looks like a fan-war breaking out, and it looks roughly 50/50.
"Haters", and "Likers", just keep in mind if it is a thread based on likes or dislikes.
Both parties are guilty in some places for forgetting this, and if I have posted criticisms about SR in a thread intended for things people liked about it, a comment that was criticism of the movie, then sorry I should not have put it there.
I am about to say what I did not like about SR, you guys who liked it can feel free to like it, I will not try to convince you not to.
This is only why I did not like it.
Ok, that out of the way, there are some things I really hated about SR:
1. No duality about Clark wanting Lois to love Clark, and not Superman. That has been a long-standing characterization element to Superman for a long time.
2. Having sex with Lois when she does not even know who he really is. Creepy, especially since he works with her every day.
3. Ditching his responsibilities on Earth for 5 years? Not telling any one? That is out of character for him. He would have at the very least let Lois (if he is intimate enough to stick his Wang in her) that he is leaving, and Clark would have put in a leave of absence at work.
He also would have let other Superheroes know he will be gone for a long time. Kind of like asking a friend to come over and water your plants and feed your cat etc… Leaving earth is also something he would only do if it was a real emergency somewhere else. Investigating the remnants of Krypton, if it takes him away from his responsibilities on earth, is out of character unless it is an emergency, such as a finding a distress beacon from a possible survivor.
Superman makes the hard choices. He does what is right, even when it is not the easiest. That is what makes him a "Super"-man.
Leaving without saying goodbye, because it would be difficult is exactly the kind of story element that very much hurts superman’s character essence, because is it 100% contradictory to his character. That was taking the easy way out.
4. Clark is being portrayed over the top, and like a cartoon. Actually the Animated series did a much better Clark Kent. I also love Mark Waid’s Birthright version even more. He is a well-respected Journalist, and not some complete Wuss. Actually over-acting would draw more attention to him that being a well-respected guy.
5. Why not address certain Superman-in-general-criticisms in the movie? The first and foremost is: "with just glasses on how come people don’t notice he is superman?" This is an answerable Question, and one that SR could have covered. The answer would be "he does not wear a mask, so people assume he has nothing to hide".
6. Ok, Lois must be one really cold-hearted B****! If she is going to just jump in the sack with a guy so shortly after superman has left, that she and Richard think Richard is the kid’s father. In that sort of time-span, the first couple months where superman is gone, and she does not know why; wouldn’t she be worried sick about him? Is he ok?
After a year she would cry herself to sleep praying that he is still alive. That is the sort of thing that would happen. Not "oh, he ditched me". – As that is the sort of thing she would only think if he was around and not speaking to her any more.
No, if he fell off the face of the Earth she would be praying for him, and crying a lot too. NOT hopping in the sack with another guy within less time than it takes her to find out she was knocked up!!
7. The movie being a vague sequel to dated movies. I loved Donner’s Superman, and Reeve as Superman, I honestly loved it when I was a kid. I would watch them over and over, and those movies sold me on Superman,
However, today I can recognize that the modern-source-material, the comic, has changed. I would have just preferred a reboot altogether. IMHO Just making a fleshed-out version of Waid’s Birthright story would have been perfect.
That was the whole point of that comic in the first place. To re-envision Superman and his world, and surrounding characters for the new millennium, and it had great success amongst comic fans. SO why would that recipe not work for the general movie audience? Why not use Mark’s proven formula, and just adapt it to the screen?
8. The campy Lex. The comics and Animated Series got Lex perfect. He is a squeaky clean public face, and very few people know the kind of monster that the Trillionaire Really is. Lexcorp own Metropolis. This had been a big part of the modern source material.
He is already wealthy beyond imagination. The movie Lex is a dated shadow of the Man that Lex is now in the Comics. Lex even becomes President of the United States at one point.
He is cold and shrewd, and malevolently charismatic in front of reporters and the cameras. He puts on a good public face.
So how about him in the movie SR? NOPE, he gets close to old ladies to steal their family’s inheritance. I absolutely hated how they reduced Lex to a campy worm who surrounds himself with morons.
9. The whole illegitimate kid thing. Aug! In the comic books Lois and Superman/Clark are MARRIED. She knew he was Clark long before hand. I could understand him having a kid with her in that circumstance, but giving Superman a dysfunctional family, that is botching his story. It also makes superman look like a home-wrecker. Not to mention Ex-BF Stalker.
10. I will not fill this post with specifics on the costume, but several of the changes to it made Brandon look very effeminate. This is one thing that was also distracting about the film. He did not look like the "man" part of the name Super-"Man" the way Reeve did in the outfit. Really all they would have had to do with the Reeve outfit to update it, would be to move the belt line down one space. That is the only needed design change to the outfit. By moving the belt line down "one-space" does Not mean moving it down so low it looks like woman’s underwear, that also made Routh look like he has an hourglass figure.
Those are it for now, the best I could think of, off the top of my head, as to the reasons I, as a Superman fan, did not like SR.
Why are the SR defenders coming on here to make excuses for the movie? Make a new thread for that purpose, and putting it in that one would be more constructive.
Those of us who do not like the movie should put critisism in thread titled like "what did you like about SR ", unless we have any positive stuff to say (there were a couple things I liked in it), we shouldn't give criticisms in such a threads either. To be fair.
This is a Thread intended for what we did not like about it. Why do others need to come here to defend it? This thread should just be a list of things people did not like about it. That is it. Instead in some places it looks like a fan-war breaking out, and it looks roughly 50/50.
"Haters", and "Likers", just keep in mind if it is a thread based on likes or dislikes.
Both parties are guilty in some places for forgetting this, and if I have posted criticisms about SR in a thread intended for things people liked about it, a comment that was criticism of the movie, then sorry I should not have put it there.
I am about to say what I did not like about SR, you guys who liked it can feel free to like it, I will not try to convince you not to.
This is only why I did not like it.
Ok, that out of the way, there are some things I really hated about SR:
1. No duality about Clark wanting Lois to love Clark, and not Superman. That has been a long-standing characterization element to Superman for a long time.
2. Having sex with Lois when she does not even know who he really is. Creepy, especially since he works with her every day.
3. Ditching his responsibilities on Earth for 5 years? Not telling any one? That is out of character for him. He would have at the very least let Lois (if he is intimate enough to stick his Wang in her) that he is leaving, and Clark would have put in a leave of absence at work.
He also would have let other Superheroes know he will be gone for a long time. Kind of like asking a friend to come over and water your plants and feed your cat etc… Leaving earth is also something he would only do if it was a real emergency somewhere else. Investigating the remnants of Krypton, if it takes him away from his responsibilities on earth, is out of character unless it is an emergency, such as a finding a distress beacon from a possible survivor.
Superman makes the hard choices. He does what is right, even when it is not the easiest. That is what makes him a "Super"-man.
Leaving without saying goodbye, because it would be difficult is exactly the kind of story element that very much hurts superman’s character essence, because is it 100% contradictory to his character. That was taking the easy way out.
4. Clark is being portrayed over the top, and like a cartoon. Actually the Animated series did a much better Clark Kent. I also love Mark Waid’s Birthright version even more. He is a well-respected Journalist, and not some complete Wuss. Actually over-acting would draw more attention to him that being a well-respected guy.
5. Why not address certain Superman-in-general-criticisms in the movie? The first and foremost is: "with just glasses on how come people don’t notice he is superman?" This is an answerable Question, and one that SR could have covered. The answer would be "he does not wear a mask, so people assume he has nothing to hide".
6. Ok, Lois must be one really cold-hearted B****! If she is going to just jump in the sack with a guy so shortly after superman has left, that she and Richard think Richard is the kid’s father. In that sort of time-span, the first couple months where superman is gone, and she does not know why; wouldn’t she be worried sick about him? Is he ok?
After a year she would cry herself to sleep praying that he is still alive. That is the sort of thing that would happen. Not "oh, he ditched me". – As that is the sort of thing she would only think if he was around and not speaking to her any more.
No, if he fell off the face of the Earth she would be praying for him, and crying a lot too. NOT hopping in the sack with another guy within less time than it takes her to find out she was knocked up!!
7. The movie being a vague sequel to dated movies. I loved Donner’s Superman, and Reeve as Superman, I honestly loved it when I was a kid. I would watch them over and over, and those movies sold me on Superman,
However, today I can recognize that the modern-source-material, the comic, has changed. I would have just preferred a reboot altogether. IMHO Just making a fleshed-out version of Waid’s Birthright story would have been perfect.
That was the whole point of that comic in the first place. To re-envision Superman and his world, and surrounding characters for the new millennium, and it had great success amongst comic fans. SO why would that recipe not work for the general movie audience? Why not use Mark’s proven formula, and just adapt it to the screen?
8. The campy Lex. The comics and Animated Series got Lex perfect. He is a squeaky clean public face, and very few people know the kind of monster that the Trillionaire Really is. Lexcorp own Metropolis. This had been a big part of the modern source material.
He is already wealthy beyond imagination. The movie Lex is a dated shadow of the Man that Lex is now in the Comics. Lex even becomes President of the United States at one point.
He is cold and shrewd, and malevolently charismatic in front of reporters and the cameras. He puts on a good public face.
So how about him in the movie SR? NOPE, he gets close to old ladies to steal their family’s inheritance. I absolutely hated how they reduced Lex to a campy worm who surrounds himself with morons.
9. The whole illegitimate kid thing. Aug! In the comic books Lois and Superman/Clark are MARRIED. She knew he was Clark long before hand. I could understand him having a kid with her in that circumstance, but giving Superman a dysfunctional family, that is botching his story. It also makes superman look like a home-wrecker. Not to mention Ex-BF Stalker.
10. I will not fill this post with specifics on the costume, but several of the changes to it made Brandon look very effeminate. This is one thing that was also distracting about the film. He did not look like the "man" part of the name Super-"Man" the way Reeve did in the outfit. Really all they would have had to do with the Reeve outfit to update it, would be to move the belt line down one space. That is the only needed design change to the outfit. By moving the belt line down "one-space" does Not mean moving it down so low it looks like woman’s underwear, that also made Routh look like he has an hourglass figure.
Those are it for now, the best I could think of, off the top of my head, as to the reasons I, as a Superman fan, did not like SR.
slave2catwoman
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It is pretty good, but it has a lot of flaws. For one thing, the costume. The Reeve costume was dead on. The new one is too dark, the briefs are too low, the belt is wrong, collar is wrong, boots are too low. There are a few plot holes as well. Still, the movie wasn't bad, just not great.
I always say that if a movie is really good, I can remember some really cool lines, sometimes whole scenes of dialogue. Can you quote any really great lines from Returns?
I always say that if a movie is really good, I can remember some really cool lines, sometimes whole scenes of dialogue. Can you quote any really great lines from Returns?
slave2catwoman
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Supermike, you said it all!
I hope you'll allow me to respond to a couple of your points SuperMike335!!. 'Cos I think they have answers though I might not change your mind. I'd be surprised if I did.
I think series (including comics) and films have different rules. For one series have a longer period of time to establish relationships than films. And film has a very limited time to show the differences with Clark and Superman. As well as other story elements. Though I will acknowledge the animated series also had time limitations but not over all the episodes (which has more time if you add them up). However I do like that Clark too. So the film showed that Clark was more in the background to show the difference. Which wouldn't work for a series (not well anyway).
This was answered in the film. It had Richard voice his suspicions to Lois and Clark diverting them by waving (plus looking around). Which made them think it was ludicrous. He does it by making people think he can't be Superman by being in the background and a little awkward. But as you say some may not think he has a disguise though we just didn't see that. I think would be hard to show and probably feel tacked on. But your beaver may vary (beaver = thoughts/mileage).
Angeloz
I think series (including comics) and films have different rules. For one series have a longer period of time to establish relationships than films. And film has a very limited time to show the differences with Clark and Superman. As well as other story elements. Though I will acknowledge the animated series also had time limitations but not over all the episodes (which has more time if you add them up). However I do like that Clark too. So the film showed that Clark was more in the background to show the difference. Which wouldn't work for a series (not well anyway).
This was answered in the film. It had Richard voice his suspicions to Lois and Clark diverting them by waving (plus looking around). Which made them think it was ludicrous. He does it by making people think he can't be Superman by being in the background and a little awkward. But as you say some may not think he has a disguise though we just didn't see that. I think would be hard to show and probably feel tacked on. But your beaver may vary (beaver = thoughts/mileage).
Angeloz
singer thought by simply putting up a phrase "vague connection", all the contradiction can be resolved.
El Payaso
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That kind of time incoherences are there for a while now. Should I remind people about the whole 'I can surround the planet several times per second to reverse time but I couldn't stop a missile accross America even when people's and Lois' lives were in the line' thing? And Donner didn't even have 'vague connection'. Did that ruin the movie for anyone here?
slave2catwoman
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One other little flaw:Kate B. is obviously in her early twenties, although she would have to be much older than that considering the timelines set in the movie. And anyway, that boy only got strong when under extreme stress. I do believe that's Bruce Banner's kid.
And I still can't post an avatar!!!!
And I still can't post an avatar!!!!
Spidey Lover 10
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yeah, WHY do people hate THAT MOVIE!?!?!? i think it was bcause of Roger Ebert going AWOL due to surgery, and the critics took their dissapointment of that out on this, Pirates 2, Snakes on a Plane, and a bunch other recent movies!
Spidey Lover 10
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I liked it!
Spidey Lover 10
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p.s. I MEANT THE CRITICS, NOT U!
Spidey Lover 10
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Trash?!?!?! Damn U! It Was Fine...mostly. I Wanted Lex To Get His Ass Kicked And Hauled Back 2 Jail......again!!!!
slave2catwoman
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Damn. 300 posts??? I had better get moving then.
SuperMike335!!
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I thought this thread was supposed to be the place to put Criticisms about the movie, not say, "hey I liked it".
There are plenty of threads for that.
Unless we want to make an official thread labeled "negatives only thread", and "positives only thread".
I figured this thread was to be the former.
When we try to mingle the voices that liked and disliked it, we just get fan war threads clutering the board.
Maybe a MOD will make two Official Threads with rules of "posting only what you liked", and another with rules of "posting only what you did Not like", and make them sticky threads.
This way we don’t have to have hate or like in all of the other threads, and fans arguing over how horrible/great the movie was.
There are plenty of threads for that.
Unless we want to make an official thread labeled "negatives only thread", and "positives only thread".
I figured this thread was to be the former.
When we try to mingle the voices that liked and disliked it, we just get fan war threads clutering the board.
Maybe a MOD will make two Official Threads with rules of "posting only what you liked", and another with rules of "posting only what you did Not like", and make them sticky threads.
This way we don’t have to have hate or like in all of the other threads, and fans arguing over how horrible/great the movie was.
buggs0268
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should I remind you that he made a promise to Miss Teschmacher to go after the Hackensack one first. In a deleted scene, he caught up to it in front of it and tried to catch it very quickly. The missle had the new "low level guidance" on it. So it just went around Superman. He then had to chase it while it was evading him because of the 'Low level guidance" thing which was constantly sensing him and making banks to evade him. When he got it into space, the second missle hit California.
Also, when he turned back time, he was in a fit of rage over Lois dying so he was using all he had to go back that fast.
Still doesn't change the fact that it is established through two pieces of dialog delivered by two of the movies main characters that it took him thousands of years to reach earth. Since it is in SR's vague history, then it has to be acknowledged as the films history.
buggs0268
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Yeah. It was so fine for the defeat of the main villian, he ran out of gas and was stranded on an island that looked like a pork chop with no coconuts and a little dog. Oh yeah it was pure cinematic gold.
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