Superman Returns Why Don't Some Superman Fans Like Superman Returns?

[mego joe]

I'm glad you think he can visit Krypton to see if it's there or if there's anyone that needs help. I'm sure Superman left without telling anyone in the comics. But will grant you a lot of the time there was robots for Clark and Superman. So it's a slightly different reality.

Angeloz

THe most significant factor in SR is that b/c he was in a sexual relationship with Lois and he was going to be gone for so long, perhaps even forever. This morally and ethically obligates him to a goodbye and explanation.

I don't feel he HAD to say goodbye to the world, but if he had obligations to appear at Luthor's parole hearing etc... then he DID have an obligation to the court system that he abandoned and if he did feel like he might never return, then he certainly should have taken some precautions with the FOS.
I can overlook the Luthor and FOS thing, but I cannot overlook his inability to be honest with Lois. The specific thing that matters within the context of SR is his sexual relationship with Lois.
In the comics he doesn't leave for that long a time period, but when he does go away for a while "Exile" for example he does pay his respects to Ma, Pa, Lana and Matrix.

 

[Angeloz]

THe most significant factor in SR is that b/c he was in a sexual relationship with Lois and he was going to be gone for so long, perhaps even forever. This morally and ethically obligates him to a goodbye and explanation.

I'm shocked. Just shocked you would say this.

I don't feel he HAD to say goodbye to the world, but if he had obligations to appear at Luthor's parole hearing etc... then he DID have an obligation to the court system that he abandoned and if he did feel like he might never return, then he certainly should have taken some precautions with the FOS.
I can overlook the Luthor and FOS thing, but I cannot overlook his inability to be honest with Lois. The specific thing that matters within the context of SR is his sexual relationship with Lois.
In the comics he doesn't leave for that long a time period, but when he does go away for a while "Exile" for example he does pay his respects to Ma, Pa, Lana and Matrix.

It's been too long since I've read that I'll admit. So he's a naughty boy for making a couple or more mistakes. Oopsy.

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

But in Star Wars the back story wasn't quite so important to the drama of the movie. When it finally does become important, the lack of our knowledge of that backstory becomes the drama, and then it is revealed.

Exactly. THe Star Wars characters are completely new and everything you learn about them is in the films. With SR, you already know something about the characters. But SR doesn't explain how they got from point a to b.

The origins of Luke and LEia are revealed throughout the trilogy and enough is revealed at the time to get the complete story.

With SR, you are given info that you would like to know more about that is crucial to undertanding the events of the film, but you don't get it.
It would be like Darth Vader being a character we ALREADY have previous knowledge of and THEN revealing that he's Luke's father- "How did that happen?"

 

[Angeloz]

I think they asked that after the second film. I've even heard some denied the possibility and thought Vader was lying. I'll note there hasn't been a trilogy in "Superman Returns" case if you count it as the first film.

Angeloz

 

[dr collossus]

Well he did stand up defiantly at the end. Plus got rid of it (landmass). But I get that some like punching. Maybe next time.

I don't care about punching, I just prefer Superman to not scream like a girl and squirm around like a p***y. Plus, as I said, that scene basically says that the powers make the man.

 

[Angeloz]

I don't care about punching, I just prefer Superman to not scream like a girl and squirm around like a p***y. Plus, as I said, that scene basically says that the powers make the man.

It depends on the person. I viewed it as someone suffering a form of (fictional) radiation sickness that meant he could barely walk let alone fight. So he tried to get out of there.

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

I think they asked that after the second film. I've even heard some denied the possibility and thought Vader was lying. I'll note there hasn't been a trilogy in "Superman Returns" case if you count it as the first film.

Angeloz

Oh, certainly, but if you're going to reveal that Jason is SUperman's son and Lois didn't know the whole time it needs some exposition to flesh out exactly WHY she didn't know and how he was conceived. Having that backstory adds depth to the characters and develops their motivations in the film.

THere's certainly stuff to build on in sequels, but I think SR lacked a solid cohesive backstory that makes sense in the context of what we already know about the characters. I doubt that there will be any retreading of the backstory in any future films. THat ship has already sailed, and SR suffers in quality from it as it seems poorly thought out and put together and lacking in deep characterization.

 

[mego joe]

I don't care about punching, I just prefer Superman to not scream like a girl and squirm around like a p***y. Plus, as I said, that scene basically says that the powers make the man.

I do think he needed to have at least been shown TRYING harder and fighting back on some level.

But I think that:

It depends on the person. I viewed it as someone suffering a form of (fictional) radiation sickness that meant he could barely walk let alone fight. So he tried to get out of there.

Except he should have tried to put up some fight and not just 'get out of there.'

 

[dr collossus]

It depends on the person. I viewed it as someone suffering a form of (fictional) radiation sickness that meant he could barely walk let alone fight. So he tried to get out of there.

Angeloz

Well there's no 'how you viewed it' about it, that's exactly what that scene was. But again, my problem isn't with him trying to get out of there; it's the screaming and squirming and Superman being depicted as basically a bully (ie he's the big man when he's got his powers, but take them away and he cries like a baby). Do you seriously not think that could have been handled a bit better?

I will however admit that the very next scene depicts the exact opposite of this, when he leaves the plane and says goodbye to Lois, thinking that he's probably not going to survive.

 

[Angeloz]

So you think you could fight three attackers if you were on chemo mego joe?

Oh, certainly, but if you're going to reveal that Jason is SUperman's son and Lois didn't know the whole time it needs some exposition to flesh out exactly WHY she didn't know and how he was conceived. Having that backstory adds depth to the characters and develops their motivations in the film.

THere's certainly stuff to build on in sequels, but I think SR lacked a solid cohesive backstory that makes sense in the context of what we already know about the characters. I doubt that there will be any retreading of the backstory in any future films. THat ship has already sailed, and SR suffers in quality from it as it seems poorly thought out and put together and lacking in deep characterization.

Where in the film did it say Lois didn't know? She did tell Luthor Richard was his father but it's rather sensible not to tell the truth to wannabe mass murderers. As for the lacking depth I think that's a matter of taste. I loved the subtlety and mystery. Some of us did. Some didn't. Each to their own.

Angeloz

 

[Angeloz]

Well there's no 'how you viewed it' about it, that's exactly what that scene was. But again, my problem isn't with him trying to get out of there; it's the screaming and squirming and Superman being depicted as basically a bully (ie he's the big man when he's got his powers, but take them away and he cries like a baby). Do you seriously not think that could have been handled a bit better?

I will however admit that the very next scene depicts the exact opposite of this, when he leaves the plane and says goodbye to Lois, thinking that he's probably not going to survive.

So you're flip flopping.

He could have tried to fight back more but it might have killed him. Also remember probably two of the attackers were hardened prisoners (at least the big one). Now if he was depowered and feeling fine. There's more of an argument. But each to their own definition of a wuss.

By the way I'm glad you give kudos for him going back. Seriously.

Angeloz

 

[afan]

So you think you could fight three attackers if you were on chemo mego joe?



Where in the film did it say Lois didn't know? She did tell Luthor Richard was his father but it's rather sensible not to tell the truth to wannabe mass murderers. As for the lacking depth I think that's a matter of taste. I loved the subtlety and mystery. Some of us did. Some didn't. Each to their own.

Angeloz

Then her character is seriously tainted as she would be purposefully leading Richard down a primrose path of presumed parentage.

 

[Angeloz]

How do you know that he doesn't know (he's not)? I'll grant you they might not.

Angeloz

 

[dr collossus]

So you're flip flopping.

How, exactly?

He could have tried to fight back more but it might have killed him. Also remember probably two of the attackers were hardened prisoners (at least the big one). Now if he was depowered and feeling fine. There's more of an argument. But each to their own definition of a wuss.

I think in fact they are all hardened prisoners, you get this when Kitty tells Lex she doesn't like his friends and he says you have to make friends with nasty people in prison to survive. But again, I didn't say anything about him fighting back.

By the way I'm glad you give kudos for him going back. Seriously.

Angeloz

Well, what else would he have done? He's Superman! That's one part they got right. You know, I really don't hate the movie. In fact if you read my posts you'll see that I like lots about it. I just feel it was really badly let down by more poor parts than good.

 

[Angeloz]

I was just joking about the flip flopping 'cos you said something negative then positive. Hence the smiley.

 

[dr collossus]

Heh, fair enough. I forget sometimes that some people on here think you can only either love a movie or hate it. Refreshing to find someone else who doesn't though.

 

[afan]

How do you know that he doesn't know (he's not)? I'll grant you they might not.

Angeloz

All the characters, Perry, Jimmy have a "nudge-nudge" knowledge of the Lois / Superman relationship that pre-existed SR.

Lois has a child. There MUST be a father.
If the assumption by all parties is not Richard's parentage of Jason, that only leaves one conclusion doesn't it; everyone would know who the father is. Richard must be believed to be the father else Superman is the obvious answer.

Of course Richard could willingly be in on the deception, but then why would he be ignorant of Lois' feeling for Superman?

If Lois is aware that Superman is the father she is purposefully decieving all and in Richard's case despicably so. I cannot accept Lois doing that and therefore must assume she does not know the truth.

 

[Angeloz]

Heh, fair enough. I forget sometimes that some people on here think you can only either love a movie or hate it. Refreshing to find someone else who doesn't though.

Again something nice. I like it.

On him reacting badly to the beating. He's not feeling well and remember that he would rarely ever feel ill. Nor get beat up. So he's hit with both at the same time. He probably thought the better part of valour was to get out of there. Also as it's wet it would be slippery too. But as i said he was also weakened. It just wasn't a nice time for him. And as you said he did go back dr collossus.

Again each to their own in what they can tolerate.

Angeloz

 

[Angeloz]

All the characters, Perry, Jimmy have a "nudge-nudge" knowledge of the Lois / Superman relationship that pre-existed SR.

Lois has a child. There MUST be a father.
If the assumption by all parties is not Richard's parentage of Jason, that only leaves one conclusion doesn't it; everyone would know who the father is. Richard must be believed to be the father else Superman is the obvious answer.

Of course Richard could willingly be in on the deception, but then why would he be ignorant of Lois' feeling for Superman?

If Lois is aware that Superman is the father she is purposefully decieving all and in Richard's case despicably so. I cannot accept Lois doing that and therefore must assume she does not know the truth.

If you say so. But damn that means Batman isn't the father. Argh.

Hint: he's an alien.

Angeloz

 

[Spider-Bat]

Superman /Doomsday was better than SR.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

He was raised to believe b/c he has powers he must use them for the good of all, not just humans or just Kryptonians. It's not an obligation to humans or Earth, but an obligation b/c of powers to help all sentient races.


But he would act like a wolf and identify himself as a wolf, just like Tarzan always identified himself as an ape. A different kind of ape, but an ape none-the-less. And Tarzan returns ot the Jungle b/c it is his home and despite his genetics he is still an ape inside.

But the real answer with Tarzan as well is that he's both. Just like a child born in CHina and adopted by American parents is just as American as anyone else raised in America, but still has the DNA of a Chinese person.

He's both Kryptonian and human. Genetically Kryptonian, but in all the ways that matter he is also human.

This is what i was trying to basically say, he knows he isnt human, yet he was raised as one and acts like one.

I have read in numerous comics Superman saying he owes an obligation to earth and humans.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

You cant compare Indiana Jones to SR. Singer is no Spielberg.

I just thought that in SR, apart from the plane sequence, nothing got me on the edge of my seat. The level of action should increase by the time the movie continues. THe whole 3rd act just didnt work at all for me. Its my opinion. Everything just felt bland and forced.
The movie just felt incomplete and rushed. THere had to be more expostion before or better explanation of the things.

Plus, i hate the villains of the movie. The way Luthor was portrayed. All the camp. That belong in the 70`s. It just doesnt work nowadays.

I just thought that, as a whole, SR had good intentions but it wasnt the movie to be made right now.

But hey, i thought the sets were amazing, Routh was a GREAT Superman and the supporting characters, except for Lois, were great, specially Sam as Jimmy.

A while ago, i would have agreed that the plane sequence was the best part of the movie, but now, IMO the 3rd act is the best part. Luthor stops messing about and becomes a truly sadistic bastard, and Superman does something truly heroic, puts his LIFE on the line to save humanity.

But in Star Wars the back story wasn't quite so important to the drama of the movie. When it finally does become important, the lack of our knowledge of that backstory becomes the drama, and then it is revealed.



I didn't like that scene simply because I would like to see Superman showing some balls. Powers or no powers, he basically screamed like a girl an squirmed like a *****. I know he was in pain from the kryptonite, but frankly, it was pathetic. Other heroes (super or otherwise) get better treatment than this in movies, like when they're wounded or shot etc. but grit their teetch and stand up for themselves. This scene was almost saying that the powers make the man, and is in fact one of my big problems with the film.

Then you completely missed the point of the scene. Why do you think Superman shouted to Lex "I'M STILL SUPERMAN!!!" when he was getting beat. It was to tell Lex that its not his powers that make the man, but his will, determination and love for humanity. He was telling Lex his powers are nothing without these. Obviously Lex being Lex he made fun of this "So long.....Superman" but i think he realised by the end what Superman meant, and it made him hate him more.

As for Superman fighting back, he grabbed Lex's foot to stop him kicking him again AFTER he had taken a hell of a beating already, that is fighting back IMO.

 

[mego joe]

So you think you could fight three attackers if you were on chemo mego joe?

I would certainly give it every effort I had if it looked like I was going to die otherwise.

Where in the film did it say Lois didn't know? She did tell Luthor Richard was his father but it's rather sensible not to tell the truth to wannabe mass murderers.

But then she's lied to Richard. Lied to Jason and waited until after superman was almost dead to tell him. It seems to me she didn't figure it out until Jason threw the piano. If she knew all along why wouldn't she have told Superman sooner. "Oh BTW, not ONLY did you ditch me for 5 years w/o saying goodbye, but I was PREGNANT with your child at the time, you big blue jerk!"

The sequence of events seems to indicate that she finds out when he throws the piano. Plus, her looks of surprise seem to indicate this is completely unexpected to her. Also, the prequel comic indicates she thoroughly believes Richard to be the father.

As for the lacking depth I think that's a matter of taste. I loved the subtlety and mystery. Some of us did. Some didn't. Each to their own.

Angeloz

Exactly, it is about taste. I want more depth and more about the characters, others don't require as much exposition.

 

[C. Lee]

Does anyone know the gestation period for when an Earth female gets impregnated by a Kryptonian alien?

How is it possible for alien DNA to bind with Human DNA to create a child?

Did Jason really throw the piano or did the ship violently lurch due to turbulence caused by the creation of New Krypton?

 

[mego joe]

Does anyone know the gestation period for when an Earth female gets impregnated by a Kryptonian alien?

Based on all SUperman's bodily functions being normal as indicated in S:TM, I would say 9 months.

How is it possible for alien DNA to bind with Human DNA to create a child?

I guess they both have 23 chromasomes. It must be like dogs of different breeds instead of being a separate species.

Did Jason really throw the piano or did the ship violently lurch due to turbulence caused by the creation of New Krypton?

I guess it depends if you are watching the movie (Lois and Lex watched him throw the piano) or reading the novelization or adaptation in which the piano slid when the ship lurched.

Don't you think SUperman would have checked out the DNA when he snuck into Jason's room at the end of the movie?