Superman Returns Why Don't Some Superman Fans Like Superman Returns?

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

How does he possess knowledge of the human heart enough knowledge to allow a years study on the subject?
Fact is he does, as that is very much detailed in S:TM....."For the next year we shall study the human heart...."
It is rather incongruous that an understanding of human anatomy that comprehensive in scope does not include knowledge of human reproduction. Surely he is familar with Kryptonian reproduction and therefore capable of ascertaining the possibility of mating between Humans and Kryptonians.

And were would he find this information? By being a peeping tom?

At the end of the day, who cares? It's science fiction. It's a story. It's not hard sf, where the drama and the plot itself revolve around the technology and science.

Why are we arguing about the genetic compatibility between human beings and a fictional alien race? In the context of the story, it's possible. It is well established in the comics that subsequent generations of Superman's offspring are defenders and champions of the future.

This isnt the comics though.

 

[Angeloz]

Stargate....rip in the space time continuim....intergalactic time travel....quantum leap.......wormhole......

You forgot to mention "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine".

Angeloz

 

[Angeloz]

At the end of the day, who cares? It's science fiction. It's a story. It's not hard sf, where the drama and the plot itself revolve around the technology and science.

Why are we arguing about the genetic compatibility between human beings and a fictional alien race? In the context of the story, it's possible. It is well established in the comics that subsequent generations of Superman's offspring are defenders and champions of the future.

'Cos it's fun to discuss stuff and sometimes you can learn things.

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

What if by the time she noticed it seemed almost normal. Also they thought he was premature so there's the other possibility. He was early but what if he was supposed to take 12 months but came at 11. Just a thought.

Angeloz

WHen she goes to the dr and tells them her home pregnancy test tells her she's pregnant, the first thing the dr. asks to determine a due date is going to be the date of her last menstrual period. If she hasn't had her period for 6 months, but she only appears to be 3 months along, they are going to do an ultra-sound and other tests to determine exactly how long she's been pregnant.

Additionally, this would push the pregnancy further back to where SUperman would have been around to have had a chance to hear the heartbeat with his super-hearing and know she was pregnant.

As for the premature bit mentioned in the movie, I think that is just a mention to indicate that she was already pregnant when she starting having sex with Richard b/c the child was really Supermans. This just shows that the writers know nothing of what happens when you go to the doctor and tell them you are pregnant. THe pre-mature tidbit is just an inconsisency that shows the writers know nothing of how due dates are set and that a later ultra-sound would reveal the real gestational age of the child.

THere's also no reason to think that a Kryptonian gestational peroid would be any different since Kryptonians grow outside the womb at the same rate of humans. Otherwise, Clark's age and growth rate would not have matched as he grew up on Earth.

 

[mego joe]

Certainly the line between Sci-Fi and fantasy is a fine one indeed.

Question.......Martian Manhunter, Sci-Fi or Fantasy?

THe very fact that SUperman travels to Earth in a space ship with hyperlight speed engine makes it sci fi. That's all you need. He's an alien. That's science fiction. You need go no further.

When it's magic/ sword and sorcery type stuff then it becomes Fantasy.

Martian Manhunter is sci fi.

John Carter could be consider both, but there are too many elements of advanced science in his stories to not be sci fi.

 

[mego joe]

And were would he find this information? By being a peeping tom?



This isnt the comics though.

SUperman # 400 actually deals with this. The last story goes through centuries of his descendants.

Pre-Crisis LEgion of SUper-Heroes had the Laruel Kent character a descendant of SUperman. Post-Crisis had Kent Shakespeare. And "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" showed a married Lois and Clark with child. "The Kingdom" has Clark and Diana conceiving a child.

IT's pretty well established in many comic stories that Superman can conveive a child with a woman from Earth.

 

[Mr. Socko]

"Advanced Alien Technology!"

It's lines like these that make me appreciate Wachowski dialogue.

 

[Angeloz]

WHen she goes to the dr and tells them her home pregnancy test tells her she's pregnant, the first thing the dr. asks to determine a due date is going to be the date of her last menstrual period. If she hasn't had her period for 6 months, but she only appears to be 3 months along, they are going to do an ultra-sound and other tests to determine exactly how long she's been pregnant.

Additionally, this would push the pregnancy further back to where SUperman would have been around to have had a chance to hear the heartbeat with his super-hearing and know she was pregnant.

As for the premature bit mentioned in the movie, I think that is just a mention to indicate that she was already pregnant when she starting having sex with Richard b/c the child was really Supermans. This just shows that the writers know nothing of what happens when you go to the doctor and tell them you are pregnant. THe pre-mature tidbit is just an inconsisency that shows the writers know nothing of how due dates are set and that a later ultra-sound would reveal the real gestational age of the child.

THere's also no reason to think that a Kryptonian gestational peroid would be any different since Kryptonians grow outside the womb at the same rate of humans. Otherwise, Clark's age and growth rate would not have matched as he grew up on Earth.

You haven't been reading C. Lee's explaination of delayed development. As I've said before she may not know the last time she had a period. And if the development is delayed: 6 months might seem like 3 months.

By the way she might have taken 3 months to have a rebound relationship with Richard which might make the timing seem fine. As it was stated in the film Astronomers found Krypton so he went. It wasn't like he was planning on leaving her from the start.

Angeloz

 

[afan]

THe very fact that SUperman travels to Earth in a space ship with hyperlight speed engine makes it sci fi. That's all you need. He's an alien. That's science fiction. You need go no further.

When it's magic/ sword and sorcery type stuff then it becomes Fantasy.

Martian Manhunter is sci fi.

John Carter could be consider both, but there are too many elements of advanced science in his stories to not be sci fi.

Respectfully I disagree.

Aliens and space ships are frequently the stuff of Sci-Fi, but not essential, "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" had none of those elements and yet it is Sci-Fi.

Two of the Indiana Jones films feature our hero on horseback, with a revolver holstered to his waist, and carrying a bull-whip, certainly elements that point to a western; does that certify them as westerns, of course not.

Similarly simply placing some of the elements frequently featured in sci-fi in a film does not cement a film in that genre.

As examples two very similar premises( Gosh typing this post and comparing details makes me realize they are nearly identical stories! ) involving alien visitation, but IMO belong to different genres.

"ET" and "The Day the Earth Stood Still".
"ET" in the fantasy genre.
"Day the Earth Stood Still" in Sci-Fi.

 

[Angeloz]

Respectfully I disagree.
As examples two very similar premises( Gosh typing this post and comparing details makes me realize they are nearly identical stories! ) involving alien visitation, but IMO belong to different genres.

"ET" and "The Day the Earth Stood Still".
"ET" in the fantasy genre.
"Day the Earth Stood Still" in Sci-Fi.

I think "ET" is a Sci-Fi Fantasy myself. He's an alien there's a space ship. There's even human paranoia. Just 'cos there isn't the threat of world destruction doesn't mean it's not science fiction.

Angeloz

 

[afan]

I think "ET" is a Sci-Fi Fantasy myself. He's an alien there's a space ship. There's even human paranoia. Just 'cos there isn't the threat of world destruction doesn't mean it's not science fiction.

Angeloz

Totally agree, world destruction is not a Sci Fi prerequisite.
However........
"ET" is a fanciful creature. Nothing about him or his tecnology is rational. His kind is capable of flight un-assisted by any technology, and yet their space ships are entered by steep ramps up which they clumsily lumber on stumpy legs. It's the unfeasible and irrational nature of the details that places the film in fantasy.

 

[Angeloz]

Totally agree, world destruction is not a Sci Fi prerequisite.
However........
"ET" is a fanciful creature. Nothing about him or his tecnology is rational. His kind is capable of flight un-assisted by any technology, and yet their space ships are entered by steep ramps up which they clumsily lumber on stumpy legs. It's the unfeasible and irrational nature of the details that places the film in fantasy.

Haven't you heard of telekinesis? Also he did have a psychic bond with the boy so he obviously had mind powers. Why not two of them? Also maybe the gravity was a bit heavy for them. It's been over 10-20 years since I've seen it.

Angeloz

 

[sithgoblin]

Haven't you heard of telekinesis? Also he did have a psychic bond with the boy so he obviously had mind powers. Why not two of them? Also maybe the gravity was a bit heavy for them. It's been over 10-20 years since I've seen it.

Angeloz

His point is, if they can fly, why do they stumble slowly up and down ramps. ET, like Star Wars, is fantasy with sci fi iconography.

 

[Angeloz]

His point is, if they can fly, why do they stumble slowly up and down ramps. ET, like Star Wars, is fantasy with sci fi iconography.

As I said he may come from a low gravity planet. What if they came from an evironment with the gravity of the moon? Or maybe 0.8G rather than Earth's 1G? Not all planets have the same gravity. Just a thought.

Angeloz

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

SUperman # 400 actually deals with this. The last story goes through centuries of his descendants.

Pre-Crisis LEgion of SUper-Heroes had the Laruel Kent character a descendant of SUperman. Post-Crisis had Kent Shakespeare. And "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" showed a married Lois and Clark with child. "The Kingdom" has Clark and Diana conceiving a child.

IT's pretty well established in many comic stories that Superman can conveive a child with a woman from Earth.

But this isnt the comics is it Mega Joe, the movie-verse is different.

 

[Angeloz]

So if I meet an alien and they look human I should bring contraception because comics mean we'll have kids if we're compatable? Well that's crap.

Angeloz

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^I say GO FOR IT Angeloz!

 

[Angeloz]

^I say GO FOR IT Angeloz!

LOL. Know any humaniod aliens? I mean of the outer space variety.

Angeloz

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^Yeah, my mate is one! I'll hook you guys up

 

[mego joe]

Respectfully I disagree.

Aliens and space ships are frequently the stuff of Sci-Fi, but not essential, "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" had none of those elements and yet it is Sci-Fi.

20, 000 Leagues under the sea is sci fi b/c of the Nautilus itself, 'the marvelous machine.' THere are certain aspects that make a story sci fi. Aliens and the rocket ship are not the only ones. The common element between Superman and 20, 000 Leagues is the marvelous machine. THe Nautilus and Superman's hyper light speed rocket. Many story encompass both sci fi and fantasy. Superman probably has both in it. But there are aspects that are CLEARLY elements of sci fi in his mythos.

Two of the Indiana Jones films feature our hero on horseback, with a revolver holstered to his waist, and carrying a bull-whip, certainly elements that point to a western; does that certify them as westerns, of course not.

Actually, they are very much westerns, just like Star Wars. Indiana Jones is a combination of Western and Fantasy, and Star Wars is a combiniation of sci fi and Western.

Similarly simply placing some of the elements frequently featured in sci-fi in a film does not cement a film in that genre.

I believe it does.

As examples two very similar premises( Gosh typing this post and comparing details makes me realize they are nearly identical stories! ) involving alien visitation, but IMO belong to different genres.

"ET" and "The Day the Earth Stood Still".
"ET" in the fantasy genre.
"Day the Earth Stood Still" in Sci-Fi.

ET would be sci fi and fantasy combined.

I took a course on sci fi in college and this was one of the first things we covered. "What makes a story science fiction as opposed to fantasy?"

Aliens
Marvelous Machine were the two most prominent motifs that were discussed. If it's in there then it's sci fi.

 

[mego joe]

But this isnt the comics is it Mega Joe, the movie-verse is different.

Hey, you said it WASN'T in the comics in that last post. I was just pointing out that it is in the comics.

 

[dr collossus]

I took a course on sci fi in college and this was one of the first things we covered. "What makes a story science fiction as opposed to fantasy?"

Well, I took a degree in science fiction, and what defines a story as science fiction is that the story is about the social, moral, ethical and cultural implications of changes or developments in science and technology. A science fiction story is a story which takes elements of our real lives and extrapolates them to extremes to explore the effects on society. Superman is science fiction because it does this frequently.

A story that is set in space and features aliens, laser guns and spaceships is space-opera, not science fiction.

 

[dr collossus]

Double post.

 

[Angeloz]

Well, I took a degree in science fiction, and what defines a story as science fiction is that the story is about the social, moral, ethical and cultural implications of changes or developments in science and technology. A science fiction story is a story which takes elements of our real lives and extrapolates them to extremes to explore the effects on society. Superman is science fiction because it does this frequently.

A story that is set in space and features aliens, laser guns and spaceships is space-opera, not science fiction.

I disagree about the latter. It may or may not be good science fiction. But it still is it - I think. Although I don't claim to have any formal qualifications on it. I think it's science fiction because it's set in space and has advanced technology not to mention the aliens. If that isn't science fiction then I guess a story with wizards in it isn't fantasy (generally speaking) or cowboys in it isn't a western. There might be exceptions but it's very unlikely.

Angeloz

 

[afan]

ET would be sci fi and fantasy combined.

Aliens
Marvelous Machine were the two most prominent motifs that were discussed. If it's in there then it's sci fi.

ET has both, why then do you descriminate it from sci-fi?