Superman Returns Why Don't Some Superman Fans Like Superman Returns?

[Mikelus]

^ Some people love making excuses for everything wrong with that movie, yeah, now is better to have important conversations later, off screen maybe? How convenient indeed, if there's a sequel, they better have Clark and Lois talk about all this, not just Jason, but Lois knowing the whole truth, when you have a son to care about, honesty is essential. Hope the writers are up to the challenge, it should be one of the most important scenes not only of the next sequel, but the whole franchise.

 

[dasam12]

C'mon we all know the convo will happen. I think you guys are nit picking a little bit.
The dude just threw a continent into outer space and was on the brink of death. Kind of an emotional time to have that chat.

Wouldnt you think they would have that chat in one of their interviews.
Not at Lois' house at night with possibly her fiance in the house.

 

[cronosred]

C'mon we all know the convo will happen. I think you guys are nit picking a little bit.
The dude just threw a continent into outer space and was on the brink of death. Kind of an emotional time to have that chat.

Wouldnt you think they would have that chat in one of their interviews.
Not at Lois' house at night with possibly her fiance in the house.

No I don't think it is nit picking he left the love of his life to go in search of his family and when he finds it on earth he can't even stick around long enough to talk about it, also he sure didn't seem to have a problem taking Lois for a flight at night to see what her feelings are towards him.

 

[El Payaso]

Whether that night or the next day it's a converation that should have been in this movie.

Not necessarily. Although I reckon your right to feel you would have liked it more that way like I did the way it was done.

For Superman to leave for five years without saying anything to Lois, comes back and finds out he has a five year old kid with her he never knew about and not even discuss it in the movie is wrong.

It’s wrong. But because things didn’t happen all at once as you make them sound.

Superman was told about the kid while being unconscious. He knows Lois and Jason have considered Richard the real father for 5 years so it’s not like you can simply verbalize all of that at once.

That last scene felt to me like Supes and Lois have this connection where words are not essential. They both know the truth and they know that it might be better for Jason to have a normal life without exposing him to any danger if the world, Lex or any other villiain knew he’s Superman’s son.
Besides, Jason is right there and both Superman and Lois knows he might have some of Superman’s powers... like super-hearing. I got the total feeling Lois and Superman forgave each other and any further discussion about Jason should be handled carefully before letting the kid know the truth. If they decide that it is the best for him for the time being.

The things Superman did in Returns requires him to have that conversation with Lois on screen and the only way it would work in a sequel is if it is set the next day,

Then the sequel should handle this.

Superman missed his childs first five years of life to put off dealing with the situation comes off as selfish, cowardly and cruel.

If he had the child while being on Earth, he’d probably couldn’t have next to Jason the same he can’t be next to Lois without putting her on danger all the time. If he was running away from the situation he wouldn’t have stopped at Lois’ house to start with. After all he wasn’t informed about Jason while being conscious, so he could have pretended he never knew.

 

[El Payaso]

^ Some people love making excuses for everything wrong with that movie, yeah, now is better to have important conversations later, off screen maybe?

The concept of having actions happening off-screen when they’re assumable and/or everyone can figure them out and add nothing to what you can picture is nothing new on cinema.

How convenient indeed, if there's a sequel, they better have Clark and Lois talk about all this, not just Jason, but Lois knowing the whole truth, when you have a son to care about, honesty is essential.

I agree. I just think that words is not the only expression of honesty. I don’t see Superman being dishonest to Lois (well, except that he pretends to be Clark all the time without telling her, but that’s since forever).

[FONT=&quot]I know (or assume) that many superhero movies have abused so much of verbalizing every single thing that when you use more subtle ways you start to miss a long speech for everything, no matter how obvious could be.

Hope the writers are up to the challenge, it should be one of the most important scenes not only of the next sequel, but the whole franchise.

Maybe. I still feel everything they have to tell to each other is so obvious that I don’t need to listen every word they have to say.



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[cronosred]

It’s wrong. But because things didn’t happen all at once as you make them sound.

Superman was told about the kid while being unconscious. He knows Lois and Jason have considered Richard the real father for 5 years so it’s not like you can simply verbalize all of that at once.

That last scene felt to me like Supes and Lois have this connection where words are not essential. They both know the truth and they know that it might be better for Jason to have a normal life without exposing him to any danger if the world, Lex or any other villiain knew he’s Superman’s son.
Besides, Jason is right there and both Superman and Lois knows he might have some of Superman’s powers... like super-hearing. I got the total feeling Lois and Superman forgave each other and any further discussion about Jason should be handled carefully before letting the kid know the truth. If they decide that it is the best for him for the time being.[FONT]

The thing is though so much is left for us to assume, I for one assume Lois knew Jason was Superman's child all along so she could have told him earlier but she didn't,and her shock at Jason's powers was because that was the first time they manifested, and when Richard took Lois and Jason to the hospital he looked at Jason like he may be losing him which leads me to assume Richard knows Jason is Supermans son, also with everthing so similar I assume Superman Returns was a direct sequel to Superman 1 and 2 the problems with all this is that people assume different things and no one knows what the real deal is which leads alot of people to dislike the film.

 

[dasam12]

I agree with El Payaso. Lois & Superman read each other. He didnt run from anything. He came back to acknowledge that Jason was his son. It wasnt the right time to have that convo.
Besides the fact, it was the end of the movie. Us as the audience knows what has to happen and what a crazy love triangle it is. So does Singer. Its not a 5 minute conversation. A whole new story line has to be built around it.

Similar to the Spiderman movies. #1 ended with Peter's knowing how his best friend loves him but wants to kill his alter ego.
#2 built on that. #2 ended with MJ & Harry finding out his secret.
#3 built on that.

 

[Mikelus]

A lot of people are confused about what really happened, it gives the movie a negative vibe. The sequel is taking an eternity becoming reality, right now there's more talk about the IM sequel, is just embarrassing.
Communication is very important, many problems come from the lack of it, assuming is not the way to go, your assumptions could be wrong, so is better to have an open conversation.

 

[Spiderine]

It appears that lex knows that Jason is Superman's son so this puts him in danger now.

 

[I Am The Knight]

It appears that lex knows that Jason is Superman's son so this puts him in danger now.

He most definitely knows. Jason's safety (and his very existence) will be an angle very likely to be explored in MOS.

 

[El Payaso]

The thing is though so much is left for us to assume,

What’s that much? There are things that weren’t totally resolved (or verbally), but it’s no much more than that.

I for one assume Lois knew Jason was Superman's child all along so she could have told him earlier but she didn't,

And what’s the base for this assumption?

and her shock at Jason's powers was because that was the first time they manifested,

You’re saying that, knowing for a fact Jason was Superman’s she never thought he could develope super-powers and that she kept Supes’ paternity a secret on purpose to both Ricvhard and Superman himself, in spite of the fact he might develop super-powers?

Superman comes back to Earth but Lois didn’t tell him they had a son. And then, right after Lex finds out and Jason throws a piano, she suddenly decide to tell Suopes about it?

This is just my impression but that looks too forced.

Now, if Lois knew all the time, then Singer was giving me the false impression she didn’t know at all. If this is the case and it’s addressed in a sequel, then I’m ok with it. It wouldn’t be a different narrative device than M Night Shyamalan giving me the impression of Bruce Willis being something while he was something else in The Sixth Sense.

[FONT=&quot]

and when Richard took Lois and Jason to the hospital he looked at Jason like he may be losing him which leads me to assume Richard knows Jason is Supermans son,

That’s more assumption without a clear base. Richard might have been looking at Jason as the only bond of him and Lois, since it is clear at this point that she’s in love with Superman.

also with everthing so similar I assume Superman Returns was a direct sequel to Superman 1 and 2 the problems with all this is that people assume different things and no one knows what the real deal is which leads alot of people to dislike the film.

It’s quite clear that Lois didn’t know about Superman being Jason’s father, same with Richard. But you’re free to make reach different conclusions if you want. Just don’t blame the movie for them. At least about people knowing Superman’s paternity, the movie was quite clear. Now if you give me some a solid base to think otherwise, things could be different.


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[stargazer]

C'mon we all know the convo will happen. I think you guys are nit picking a little bit.
The dude just threw a continent into outer space and was on the brink of death. Kind of an emotional time to have that chat.

Wouldnt you think they would have that chat in one of their interviews.
Not at Lois' house at night with possibly her fiance in the house.

Well said. Plus Jason was also listening.

It just wasn't the right time to have that conversation, and like El Payaso said, and I agree completely, it was so clear to me by the way Lois and Superman looked at each other that they both just 'knew' it was not the right time for that. And if you pay attention, they seemed at peace with each other, and with the great love that they still have for each other, and now with Jason's existence, even if they never get together, Jason is a link that connects them forever. Pure poetry. Who needs words when you can transmit all those wonderful feelings through the visuals? Not me. Having 'the conversation' at that time...would have killed the magic of the moment and it'd feel way too cheesy, IMO. This is Bryan Singer not Sam Raimi.

I also adore the "I'm always around" line by Brandon at the end, in response to Lois's "will we see you around?" He was so reassuring, and he sounded more supermanish than ever before. With that line he was saying that he was never going to leave again and that he would be watching over them. It was also a metaphor to us the audience that meant that Superman is always around, he is more than a superhero. He is a legend, the first and the best.
That's class, and fine storytelling and filmmaking, IMO. That's why, to me, SR is the epic of superheroes, plain and simple. No other film in the genre gives me what this film does. It's poetry in motion. Only STM comes close.

No I don't think it is nit picking he left the love of his life to go in search of his family and when he finds it on earth he can't even stick around long enough to talk about it, also he sure didn't seem to have a problem taking Lois for a flight at night to see what her feelings are towards him.

Yes, it is nitpiching, IMO. I think you need to pay more attention to what they both are saying with their eyes and facial expressions. There is so much going on on that scene, and words weren't needed.

 

[stargazer]

What’s that much? There are things that weren’t totally resolved (or verbally), but it’s no much more than that.



And what’s the base for this assumption?



You’re saying that, knowing for a fact Jason was Superman’s she never thought he could develope super-powers and that she kept Supes’ paternity a secret on purpose to both Ricvhard and Superman himself, in spite of the fact he might develop super-powers?

Superman comes back to Earth but Lois didn’t tell him they had a son. And then, right after Lex finds out and Jason throws a piano, she suddenly decide to tell Suopes about it?

This is just my impression but that looks too forced.

Now, if Lois knew all the time, then Singer was giving me the false impression she didn’t know at all. If this is the case and it’s addressed in a sequel, then I’m ok with it. It wouldn’t be a different narrative device than M Night Shyamalan giving me the impression of Bruce Willis being something while he was something else in The Sixth Sense.

[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]That’s more assumption without a clear base. Richard might have been looking at Jason as the only bond of him and Lois, since it is clear at this point that she’s in love with Superman.[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]It’s quite clear that Lois didn’t know about Superman being Jason’s father, same with Richard. But you’re free to make reach different conclusions if you want. Just don’t blame the movie for them. At least about people knowing Superman’s paternity, the movie was quite clear. Now if you give me some a solid base to think otherwise, things could be different.[/FONT]


[/FONT]

Sorry, buddy, but I disagree with you here....... I think that Cronosred has a point, though. Since some things weren't clearly explained, like if Richard knew Jason wasn't his son, or if Lois always knew that Jason was Superman's son, therefore, there is room for speculation, don't you think? And I think it's ok, it doesn't bother me at all. It is an open-ended story. That's why we are still discussing it after such a long time. It actually makes you 'think.'

 

[El Payaso]

Sorry, buddy, but I disagree with you here....... I think that Cronosred has a point, though. Since some things weren't clearly explained, like if Richard knew Jason wasn't his son, or if Lois always knew that Jason was Superman's son, therefore, there is room for speculation, don't you think?

There's always room for speculation. But what are the real base for this specific one?

In my post I myself considered the possibility that Lois knew all the time - even when everything pointed to no - and I'd be ok with it as long as it's addressed on the sequel.

But on SR, Lois changed her mind right after knowing that Jason was Superman's. After that she decided to start writing why the world does need Superman, after that she decided to stop smoking.

In short, after that Lois changed.

Which makes me think that she didn't know, since traditionally characters don't suffer dramatic changes without dramatic reasons (or don't suffer changes without a reason). Other than finding out that Jason is Superman's I see no other reason.

But again, If it is the way you say, I expect to see properly addressed.

And I think it's ok, it doesn't bother me at all. It is an open-ended story. That's why we are still discussing it after such a long time. It actually makes you 'think.'

Yes. I mean, for me it's way more about subtleties than an open ending. Many many things weren't verbally or fully explained but it's not like we don't know what is happening.

The way I got it, yes, Lex can still come back, truth about Jason is still to be told, the Lois-Superman-Jason-Richard familiar situation is far from being stable, but we know what happened. I fail to see any concrete mistery.

 

[cronosred]

What’s that much? There are things that weren’t totally resolved (or verbally), but it’s no much more than that.

Almost everything about the child plot

And what’s the base for this assumption?

All I'm left with is assumption since nothing is cleared up in the film

You’re saying that, knowing for a fact Jason was Superman’s she never thought he could develope super-powers and that she kept Supes’ paternity a secret on purpose to both Ricvhard and Superman himself, in spite of the fact he might develop super-powers?

Superman comes back to Earth but Lois didn’t tell him they had a son. And then, right after Lex finds out and Jason throws a piano, she suddenly decide to tell Suopes about it?

This is just my impression but that looks too forced.

Now, if Lois knew all the time, then Singer was giving me the false impression she didn’t know at all. If this is the case and it’s addressed in a sequel, then I’m ok with it. It wouldn’t be a different narrative device than M Night Shyamalan giving me the impression of Bruce Willis being something while he was something else in The Sixth Sense.

I said she was surprised because it was the first time he used his powers I didn't say she didn't expect him to have any as for Richard we don't know what he knows, also Lois was agry at Superman for leaving so I could see her not being forthcoming right away. You can also look at it as Lois telling Superman about Jason because she thought he was dying it might be her only chance.

That’s more assumption without a clear base. Richard might have been looking at Jason as the only bond of him and Lois, since it is clear at this point that she’s in love with Superman.

And that's your assumption, without a "clear base" as you say your assumption is no more right than mine.

It’s quite clear that Lois didn’t know about Superman being Jason’s father, same with Richard. But you’re free to make reach different conclusions if you want. Just don’t blame the movie for them. At least about people knowing Superman’s paternity, the movie was quite clear. Now if you give me some a solid base to think otherwise, things could be different.

In order for Lois not to know she would have had to sleep with Richard right after Superman left, I never thought Lois Lane would be a candidate for The Maury Povich Show "Who's My Babies Daddy?"

 

[El Payaso]

Almost everything about the child plot

What’s exactly the mistery? He was conbceived before Superman left. Out of spite Lois got involved with Richard and found out she was pregnant and thought Jason was Richard’s.

For the third time, if things didn’t happen like this I hope it’s properly addressed, but nothing in the movie points out it happened otherwise.

In fact Jason is portrayed as a weak asthmatic kid that can’t even eat regular food. I seriously doubt Lois (or anyone) would think that is Superman’s son. In fact it sounds obvious that the asthma and weakness of Jason was put in there on purpose to inform us (and make us think) that he was Lois’ and Jason’s child.

That’s my base to say things happened in the movie the way i said.

All I'm left with is assumption since nothing is cleared up in the film

Does this mean that you don’t actually have a base then?

I’m just asking.

I said she was surprised because it was the first time he used his powers I didn't say she didn't expect him to have any

Given Jason’s constant weakness and asthma, I’d say she wasn’t expecting that a specially feeble kid had any superpower.

as for Richard we don't know what he knows,

But is there anything in the movie at all that can make you think he knew Jason was Superman’s so you’re thinking that way?

Lois spent the whole movie denying his love for Superman to him. I seriously doubt she told Richard Jason was Superman’s son before telling Superman himself (at the hospital).

also Lois was agry at Superman for leaving so I could see her not being forthcoming right away.

If she knew that Jason was Superman’s then the first reason of his anger would have been exactly that. How is it helping her anger to hide that fact? For all we know, she was angry that he left and so she let him know.

You can also look at it as Lois telling Superman about Jason because she thought he was dying it might be her only chance.

Very true. But the addition of the other factors makes me think she didn’t know. She’s amazed when Lex suggest Jason might be Superman’s and that was before he displayed his super-powers.

And that's your assumption, without a "clear base" as you say your assumption is no more right than mine.

It’s hard to have a clear base of something that hasn’t happened (Lois’ confession to Richard that Jason isn’t his). On the other hand, if there’s any evidence that suggests that Lois did tell him I’d be interested to know.

In order for Lois not to know she would have had to sleep with Richard right after Superman left,

Or one week later. Which is entirely possible.

I never thought Lois Lane would be a candidate for The Maury Povich Show "Who's My Babies Daddy?"

After watching SR, I never thought Lois Lane would NOT be a candidate for The Maury Povich Show "Who's My Babies Daddy?"

 

[cronosred]

Whats the mystery? well we don't know for sure if Richard knew Jason wasn't his son from the beginning or at the end, we don't know if Lois knew in the beginning all we can do is assume. I thought Jason being sickly related to young Clark needing glasses. Lois was scared of Lex and if she knew Jason was Supermans she's not going to tell him. Again my assumption is Richard at the end figured out Jason was Supermans, I don't really know alot of guys that would send their children with their girlfriend to go visit their dying ex boyfriends even if he's Superman. In the end you have your assumptions and I have mine whether we get a sequel or not I'm just glad we're getting different writers.

 

[cronosred]

After watching SR, I never thought Lois Lane would NOT be a candidate for The Maury Povich Show "Who's My Babies Daddy?"

Now I'm left thinking the same way about Lois as those girls which is if she wasn't so loose and used some protection she wouldn't have been in this situation, oh well I guess it's a good lesson for the kids.

 

[El Payaso]

Whats the mystery? well we don't know for sure if Richard knew Jason wasn't his son from the beginning or at the end,

Again, what could possibly make you think he knew from the beginning? If he knew from the beginning, Superman being back would have meant lot for him, he wouldn’t have been talking about whether Lois was or not in love with Superman while making dinner in a casual relaxed way, but seriously what to do now about Jason, don’t you think.

we don't know if Lois knew in the beginning all we can do is assume.

And again, if she knew that’d be a major issue for her when he’s back. But all along the movie all she talks about is that he didn’t say good-bye (even to Clark). Nothing in the movie even suggests that she had a bigger issue with Superman than the good-bye thing. If you like to assume other things you’re welcome, but something that supports your assumption would make them sound more convincing or at least worthy.

I thought Jason being sickly related to young Clark needing glasses.

Oh yes.

But at the same time it added a lot to the idea that he’s human and in no case the son of the most powerful man on Earth.

Lois was scared of Lex and if she knew Jason was Supermans she's not going to tell him.

Absolutely. If.

Again my assumption is Richard at the end figured out Jason was Supermans, I don't really know alot of guys that would send their children with their girlfriend to go visit their dying ex boyfriends even if he's Superman.

Now we’re talking. Now you have some evidence that suggests that Richard might know or suspect about Jason’s real father.

Now I'm left thinking the same way about Lois as those girls which is if she wasn't so loose and used some protection she wouldn't have been in this situation,

That’s probably because if Lois wasn't so loose and used some protection she wouldn't have been in this situation.

Now it’s not like she’s a teenager that can’t take charge of her life and son.

oh well I guess it's a good lesson for the kids.

I guess kids, as anyone else, are allowed to take that as a lesson if they want. I don’t see this movie as a teaching movie. But I cretainly feel a vibe from you like Lois having a kid is particularly wrong.

 

[cronosred]

I guess kids, as anyone else, are allowed to take that as a lesson if they want. I don’t see this movie as a teaching movie. But I cretainly feel a vibe from you like Lois having a kid is particularly wrong.

From reading posts on this board I feel like I'm one of the few that didn't mind them giving Superman and Lois a kid it's just the way they went about it I didn't care for which is why I wanted that conversation I talked about earlier to be in this movie because for me it could have taken care of pretty much all my problems about it.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I agree with El Payaso. Lois & Superman read each other. He didnt run from anything. He came back to acknowledge that Jason was his son. It wasnt the right time to have that convo.
Besides the fact, it was the end of the movie. Us as the audience knows what has to happen and what a crazy love triangle it is. So does Singer. Its not a 5 minute conversation. A whole new story line has to be built around it.

Similar to the Spiderman movies. #1 ended with Peter's knowing how his best friend loves him but wants to kill his alter ego.
#2 built on that. #2 ended with MJ & Harry finding out his secret.
#3 built on that.

Exactly, Superman had just woken up from a day were he nearly died, twice, Richard was in the house and Jason was at the window, they are going to start discussing things then and there, the look they gave each other heavily suggested they were going to have that conversation at a later, and more convenient, date.

 

[stargazer]

There's always room for speculation. But what are the real base for this specific one?

In my post I myself considered the possibility that Lois knew all the time - even when everything pointed to no - and I'd be ok with it as long as it's addressed on the sequel.

But on SR, Lois changed her mind right after knowing that Jason was Superman's. After that she decided to start writing why the world does need Superman, after that she decided to stop smoking.

In short, after that Lois changed.

Which makes me think that she didn't know, since traditionally characters don't suffer dramatic changes without dramatic reasons (or don't suffer changes without a reason). Other than finding out that Jason is Superman's I see no other reason.

But again, If it is the way you say, I expect to see properly addressed.



Yes. I mean, for me it's way more about subtleties than an open ending. Many many things weren't verbally or fully explained but it's not like we don't know what is happening.

The way I got it, yes, Lex can still come back, truth about Jason is still to be told, the Lois-Superman-Jason-Richard familiar situation is far from being stable, but we know what happened. I fail to see any concrete mistery.

The way I see it is that Lois remembered that she slept with Superman (but still doesn't know that he is also Clark), and that they had a previous sort of relationship before he left to seek out for krypton (he never deleted her memory in this continuity, Singer said it himself, I think). And if she didn't tell Superman that Jason was his son (in the rooftop interview) is because of Richard and Jason, since as far as Jason knows, Richard is his daddy. NOt and easy situation for Lois. Plus Lois was still bitter at Superman. But later, as she realized that Superman is indeed important and necessary to the world, she begins to change and to understand that she was indeed to hard on him for writing that article. I see how she begins to change during the night flight with Supes, where he shares his burden with her ("I hear everything").

As for Richard, I think it is possible that he always knew Jason wasn't his real son but loved and accepted him any way, which happens in real life. But obviously, Jason doesn't know it. I hope Bryan clarifies some of this in the sequel, but if the sequel never happened, I don't have a problem with the open-ended end of the film, at all. I think SR works as a stand alone, and also as a sort of soul sequel to STM and S2.

 

[Wushuboy]

what the hell is a soul sequel? first vague history.. now soul sequel.

 

[stargazer]

^^I'd explain it, but nah, waste of time.

 

[mego joe]

^^I'd explain it, but nah, waste of time.

SR is definitely a waste of time. Everybody's time.