Why haven't the Avengers ever faced Apocalypse?

[LouFerignoDemon]

Wow! u guys debate like its truly a real science! if I didn't know, I'd think you were scientist studyin a species from space or some sort. That or a married couple.

I was originally a biologist, so I treat everything like that. lol

 

[Silicon Surfer]

While that's a possibility, I doubt the force truly just passed them up right then and there. Conceptual beings don't exactly work like you and I, and do not have to have hard refined ideas. She could've already been linked to them before, or at that moment she decided to ressurect one. And even if she didn't, it's like I said, Galactus has done the same, so it's not some special thing reserved for her.

True enough but on the original topic, the Phoenix demonstrated its infinite power when inside the M'Kraan crystal. Containing a neutron galaxy powerful enough to destroy the universe would be convincing enough for most people.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Franklin Richards or the Tribunal are above that, and neither of them contain truly infinite power. I think Hyperstorm is also on that level.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

Franklin Richards or the Tribunal are above that, and neither of them contain truly infinite power. I think Hyperstorm is also on that level.

I have never seen either the Tribunal or Franklin display power on that level but I have been out of touch with comics for a while now. Hyperstorm was originally supposed to have been the most powerfu entity ever to exist although whether that included conceptual being that formed the universe was never stated.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

The Tribunal can destroy or lock off entire universes if they threaten the multiverse, and Franklin can create new ones from nothing, which would take energy on a beyond infinite scale, and that seemingly burns out his power, which would assume he has a limited ability.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

The Tribunal can destroy or lock off entire universes if they threaten the multiverse, and Franklin can create new ones from nothing, which would take energy on a beyond infinite scale, and that seemingly burns out his power, which would assume he has a limited ability.

Actually, he creates mini universes for which the energy requirement is unknown since all acts, constructs, power, etc. are to scale. Likewise the ability to seal off universes while a respectable feat cannot be pinned down to a definate power level. At least not by us. We have no way to detemine whether you are right or wrong on these feats since there is nothing with which to directly compare them where relative power is known.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Actually, he creates mini universes for which the energy requirement is unknown since all acts, constructs, power, etc. are to scale. Likewise the ability to seal off universes while a respectable feat cannot be pinned down to a definate power level. At least not by us. We have no way to detemine whether you are right or wrong on these feats since there is nothing with which to directly compare them where relative power is known.

We can compare the limits by their abilities. Franklin was capable of rewriting the universe, as well as creating that pocket dimension like it was nothing. His powers, by that means, would then include they're not fully developed, but still burn out.

As for the Tribunal, I agree.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

We can compare the limits by their abilities. Franklin was capable of rewriting the universe, as well as creating that pocket dimension like it was nothing. His powers, by that means, would then include they're not fully developed, but still burn out.

As for the Tribunal, I agree.

Rewriting the universe is indeed a respectable feat. The creation of the pocket universe is also, however what we don't know is exactly how much energy was invested in the universe itself. That Franklin wields an enormous amount of raw power however is not in question. An act that can be compared although not actually quantified is his defeat and dissolution of Mephisto. The act of rewriting reality may not require much energy and there are several humans capable of that and virtually all of the Cosmics seem to have that capability as well.

 

[Sloth7d]

Go on.....

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Rewriting the universe is indeed a respectable feat. The creation of the pocket universe is also, however what we don't know is exactly how much energy was invested in the universe itself. That Franklin wields an enormous amount of raw power however is not in question. An act that can be compared although not actually quantified is his defeat and dissolution of Mephisto. The act of rewriting reality may not require much energy and there are several humans capable of that and virtually all of the Cosmics seem to have that capability as well.

Actually, rewriting reality from beginning to end isn't nearly as simply as altering single moments in it like others. Jaspers would be the next most powerful manipulator of reality I can think of aside from the Beyonder and the Shaper of Worlds. Where they could manipulate reality from their single points, Franklin can rewrite the history of a universe. And where the Phoenix could ressurect a single or dozen lives, Franklin created more than six billion lives.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

In large part Franklin no doubt simply copied the 616 universe rather than make his own "composition", he simply xeroxed the 616 universe and inserted the heroes he saved. Since I didn't read the stories that took place in that universe I don't know anything about any other changes.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

In large part Franklin no doubt simply copied the 616 universe rather than make his own "composition", he simply xeroxed the 616 universe and inserted the heroes he saved. Since I didn't read the stories that took place in that universe I don't know anything about any other changes.

He subconciously created another universe (with it's own Galactus I believe) to save his family and friends. In it were people that either didn't exist before, or did. It was explained that he created this huge effect and life and blah blah blah something highly independent. That, and everybody had new origins, so it wasn't some mere carbon copy. I mean, he copied the obvious things like the Avengers, and humans and such. But the universe wasn't quite the same.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

He subconciously created another universe (with it's own Galactus I believe) to save his family and friends. In it were people that either didn't exist before, or did. It was explained that he created this huge effect and life and blah blah blah something highly independent. That, and everybody had new origins, so it wasn't some mere carbon copy. I mean, he copied the obvious things like the Avengers, and humans and such. But the universe wasn't quite the same.

There may well be a chaos factor that automatically inserts itself in such situations in order to prevent perfect replicas of a reality. That all the What If? universes exist suggests such a machinism.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I would more likely go with that he formed it that way subconciously and put the history in place. The alternative is that he created the new universe, then subconciously, in an instant, fast forwarded everything to that particular moment they entered.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

I would more likely go with that he formed it that way subconciously and put the history in place. The alternative is that he created the new universe, then subconciously, in an instant, fast forwarded everything to that particular moment they entered.

To do that he would have to know and understand everything he is creating and changing. By simply copying he automatically gets to whatever time it is when the copying takes place. It would take an intellect of near infinite level to create and then put in place all the details of earth and all the other planets that were there. Franklin has never exhibited more than human genius level intelligence.

 

[BrianWilly]

The Phoenix Force has been referenced, in-canon, as the original spark that ignited the universe and the eventual fire that will consume it. Reed Richards himself postulated that this exact energy, the Big Bang energy or what have you, is what originally gave Galactus his being and existence in the first place. Yes, the most pedestrian and straightforward way of describing the Phoenix Force would go something like "the combined essence of all psionic energy in the universe," but it's so much more than that. Life in the Marvel universe, by definition, is psionic energy. When the Phoenix says "I am fire! And life incarnate!", it's not just a catchy slogan; she's literally describing what she represents.

And yet on that note, she doesn't just represent creation but destruction also, since it's her job to burn away what doesn't work, thereby ensuring that life evolves naturally as it should and "fixing" the universe. For the potential of creation to exist, there must first be destruction. Just as the mythological phoenix, the Phoenix Force represents the cycle of life in the universe, that of death and rebirth from the ashes. And just as this universe ends, another will be born from the ashes. And make no mistake; her power level has been described by the Watcher as to be second only to the Creator. We've seen her hold the entire universe in her hands, after all.

(However, it should be noted that the Phoenix has very rarely displayed that level of power. The sort of universe-bending potential presumably requires an incredibly stable and harmonious balance between the Force and its avatar Jean Grey...something that, admittedly, almost never actually happens.)

(And I think that the Living Tribunal is more powerful, anyway. Or at least he's supposed to be)

 

[Docker2.0]

I haven't heard so many big words that I didn't understand since that time Dr.Suess played scrabble with Jessie Jackson.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

The Phoenix Force has been referenced, in-canon, as the original spark that ignited the universe and the eventual fire that will consume it. Reed Richards himself postulated that this exact energy, the Big Bang energy or what have you, is what originally gave Galactus his being and existence in the first place. Yes, the most pedestrian and straightforward way of describing the Phoenix Force would go something like "the combined essence of all psionic energy in the universe," but it's so much more than that. Life in the Marvel universe, by definition, is psionic energy. When the Phoenix says "I am fire! And life incarnate!", it's not just a catchy slogan; she's literally describing what she represents.

And yet on that note, she doesn't just represent creation but destruction also, since it's her job to burn away what doesn't work, thereby ensuring that life evolves naturally as it should and "fixing" the universe. For the potential of creation to exist, there must first be destruction. Just as the mythological phoenix, the Phoenix Force represents the cycle of life in the universe, that of death and rebirth from the ashes. And just as this universe ends, another will be born from the ashes. And make no mistake; her power level has been described by the Watcher as to be second only to the Creator. We've seen her hold the entire universe in her hands, after all.

(However, it should be noted that the Phoenix has very rarely displayed that level of power. The sort of universe-bending potential presumably requires an incredibly stable and harmonious balance between the Force and its avatar Jean Grey...something that, admittedly, almost never actually happens.)

(And I think that the Living Tribunal is more powerful, anyway. Or at least he's supposed to be)

That makes sense to me. I could see it as the spark that ignited the universe, or the after ensuing energy that was created from it or something. But I'm pretty sure she only protected Galan, and the former, weaker Eternity bonded himself to Galactus. (Assumed because the will of the former universe was what turned Galan into Galactus.) However, I've not seen her achieve power levels that I would consider so mind blowingly awesome that I would put her in a level that is above all other cosmic entities. The Phoenix's avatar is capable of large class solar system destruction like other cosmic entities, but seems suseptible to actual mortal intervention. When Jean was possessed by the Phoenix, it only took the feelings of her friends to reverse the will of the Phoenix itself. So I would assume that such a bendable will wouldn't lend super super super super super vast amounts of energy. Galactus has shown parallel amounts of power, with the ability to destroy entire solar systems with relative ease, and the ability to read any mind or entity in the universe with no difficulty. His power can lend and create life, as well as take that life away. So I could see the parrallels of their power as well. The Shiar thought black holes were a threat the Phoenix Force, where black holes aren't even a threat to Galactus heralds. It doesn't seem to be on par with Eternity, really. I don't know though, to tell you the truth.

I simply do not know enough of the Phoenix Force past my general knowledge of it though. I guess I'll just have to sit back and analyze.

However, I agree. The Tribunal SHOULD be more powerful than the Phoenix Force, as his role is to level all energy throughout the multiverse, where his domain is. Though we never seem to see him doing his job.

 

[KingOfDreams]

The New Avengers fought him in the recent ultra crappy Apoc arc.

Yeah. I was going to mention that.