Why is downloading so taboo here?

[Dan_Slott]

I buy this concept of "voting" but I have one area of uncertainty. If my memory serves me right, I've read 29 trades by Brian K. Vaughan, but I've only bought one of them. I checked out the other 28 from my county public library system. Have I completely wronged Vaughan and robbed him of a few hundred dollars worth of votes, even though I didn't steal this books or read them in any illegal way?

In a case like that, the loss of your "vote" puts your OWN enjoyment at risk. This is like watching a show in re-runs. Ratings determine what shows can sell better ad time. When you watch a show when it first airs, YOUR vote can up its profile. This can give it a larger budget which gives it greater freedom for which guest stars it hires, better choices for sets, wardrobe, location shots, etc. When its ratings are lower, you're going to get more "bottle" and "clip" shows, maybe they have to pare down the cast, etc.

Same with comics. I've lost count of the number of fans who've told me that they discovered my run of THE THING in trade paperback form-- and how they would've liked another volume. With lower tier titles, sometimes the TPB sales aren't enough to save it-- or sometimes it's too late as the creative team has moved onto other jobs.

In the case of SHE-HULK, we were getting such good word of mouth, that Marvel decided to put the book on a half-year-or-so hiatus and relaunch it with a bigger push. Our numbers were fine and holding, but they thought we could do better. On one level, the plan worked. We gained about 10,000 extra readers-- and that GREATLY extended the lifetime of the book. On the minus side, we lost our (then) regular artist Paul Pelletier, as he got snatched up by the EXILES office during the break. (Guy's gotta keep working after all!)

Our trades on SHE-HULK did really well! (And continue do pretty well.) But, BOY, for a smaller niche book, I really would've liked those sales on the monthly issues.

It's not a hard and fast rule. For example, RUNAWAYS was saved by the performance of its trades-- and other books have flourished that way as well-- like a number of Vertigo titles.

Just something to think about.

Interesting point

But only one person bought that trade, and hundreds are reading it without buying it.

How is that differant from one person buying it, and hundreds downloading it without buying it?

I'm not a big fan of the "Doesn't checking a book out of the library" = "the same thing as reading it online" argument. For a number of reasons:

There's a physical copy in the library. It was purchased through legal means. Only one person can read it at the same time. If it's checked out, you have to wait. That copy has also gone through lots of wear-and-tear.

There is an INFINITE number of copies on the internet. They were copied through ILLEGAL means-- when you download it, you are COMPLICIT in that act. Also, the act of downloading CREATES a copy on your hard drive. YOU'VE now created a copy and have broken the law. An infinite number of people can read it. Outside of one generation of scanning, there's no wear and tear.

When you BUY the comic, your purchase gives you a copy to keep as long as you want. You got it through LEGAL means. You get the immediacy and convenience of reading it whenever you want. The wear and tear of the physical copy is yours to control.

World of difference.

 

[Spider-Jay420]

But only one person bought that trade, and hundreds are reading it without buying it.

How is that differant from one person buying it, and hundreds downloading it without buying it?

See above.

 

[iloveclones]

By the way, all of that was from Marvels POV, not Brian K. Vaughn's. I surely can't speak for him, but if he were me, this is what I would tell you: "I'm so glad you like my work. If getting it through the library is the only way you can afford it....(waits while Max J Power checks his iPhone....)....I completely understand. I hope in the future that you make the "jump" to buying, because that's the only way I can keep doing this."


And yes, I have no idea whether Max or anyone else on this forum has an iPhone or what their lifestyle is. Just using his name, since he's teh one I'm replying to. But usually when I hear people talking about how they don't have money for this or that, it usually means that they don't want to give up this other thing in order to afford it. Which is fine. Comics are not a necessity. Neither are fancy cell phones with data plans, video game systems, eating out, spectator sports, cable/satellite, Hi-speed internet, vacations, movies, concerts, big-ass tv's, or owning a pet. They all make life nicer, and we all have the privelege of getting to choose among them. But I think it's a bit shaky to tell guys that produce comics that you don't want to pay for it, because you want all this other stuff that isn't easy to get for free.

 

[Dan_Slott]

I think downloading for personal purpose is ok and that is the way things are turning out in society. Where I have the problem is downloading for financial gain(bootleging, etc). Thats where it goes wrong imo.

As it stands, it's illegal to download comics even if it's for personal use and not for resale.

This is still a version of the "it's not a crime if I don't get caught argument.

You don't get to go to the store and steal food if it's only food that you personally intend to eat (as opposed to selling it on the black market).

Or, if you want to equate it to an experience where there's no "physical" product:

It's still a crime if you pick a lock and sneak into a concert-- as opposed to picking the lock and then selling cheaper tickets for other people to sneak in through the door that you opened. In BOTH cases you're taking something (the experience of being at the concert) that doesn't belong to you.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I thought I might turn this discussion on it's ear a bit, and talk about what I would like in terms of Marvel/DC/Image/etc putting there product out for digital consumption.

First off, Marvel's current Online Digital System: Despite it's many flaws, I'm subscribed to it (twice actually, one as a present to a friend). I'll probably cancel mine, primarily because of the lack of content. I know they have thousands of comics, but when I want to go back and read a run, and only 1 or 2 are available, to me, that's a content problem. If they improved on that one thing, I would definately stick with it.

In a perfect world:

**I want to own what I buy. Sometimes, believe it or not, I'm not online.

**I suppose my price tolerance would be $1.00 for a "new" (in the past 6 months) issue, $0.25 for anything 6 months-3 years, and basically $0.10 for anything older than 3 years. That would be about $30 for a 300 issue run which is about what GIT was charging (most, if not all, of which I bought)

** I actually kind of like Marvel's Online viewing system. I wouldn't mind at all if they offered that with a Pay type system.

I honestly don't see what roadblocks prevent Marvel from having some kind of an iComics system.

I could potentially be okay with Marvel's monthly-flat-fee subscription service. If the content is going to be up on their servers forever, it's effectively as good as owning the issues on your hard drive. Then again, I doubt Marvel gives its subscribers any kind of assurance of that permanency.

But the real problem for me is your complaint about consecutive runs. I don't want just some of the old issues of, say, Thor; I'm the kind of person who'll sit down and read literally every issue of an old comic, spanning decades. Marvel's subcription service would be ideal for that because, let's face it, not everything from that far back is reprinted in trades and the back issues are often nearly impossible to find; so, if you're looking to read a straight run from 1963 to the present, you're 99.9% likely to be reading it on a computer screen. I'd much rather read it via Marvel's digital subscription service than torrents and at least give a little something back to the publisher, but their subscription service right now seems pretty haphazard at best. I know major online databases like that tend to suck at first before they build up their content--Hulu was god-awful for a while in the early days, too--but this is like 2 or 3 years after it was introduced, right? Marvel's really gotta get behind the digital subscription service and give us full runs of the major cornerstone series like Amazing Spider-Man, Avengers, X-Men, etc. If I ever see that, I'll give serious thought to subscribing. 'Til then, it's just not worth it.

 

[Dan_Slott]

If, at the end of the day, that's your argument-- that you don't think you'll get caught-- then what you're saying is something along these lines:

It's okay to steal something from a person's house if they leave the door unlocked and no one sees you doing it.

Well....yeah.

Not quite so "" when it's your house being robbed.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

But you'd at least learn a valuable lesson: Don't leave your door unlocked.

Unfortunately, pirating doesn't quite fit that analogy because Marvel has no means of "locking" its content in a way that will definitely prevent anyone from scanning it.

 

[Dan_Slott]

So where can I download some comics? PM Me.

Wait...

Here, PM these guys. They'll tell you EVERYTHING you need to know.

http://www.copynot.com/

 

[iloveclones]

I think a few of us have explained why it's different.

 

[Dan_Slott]

Then that person saved some money. We should pay Marvel and DC for bad books now too?

To me, this falls into my all-the-way rule.
If something compelled you to read all-the-way through the comic, the creative team did their job.

Even if it was a slow-down-and-look-at-the-car-crash fascination...
Or an Ed-Wood-like so-bad-it's-funny scenario...
Or maybe even if it's YOUR need to just see-how-the-story-ended...

WHATEVER the case, the storytellers told you a story. You're the audience. It's part of the contract for the service rendered-- you're supposed to give your patronage.

It makes sense if you go to a restaurant, take one bite of your food, and say, "This is horrible! I'm not eating this! Or paying for it!"
It's another thing if you FINISH the meal, put your knife and fork down, and THEN say that.

If you HAVE made an illegal download of a comic-- and you DID read it all the way to the end-- you SHOULD reach all the way into your wallet-- and pay for the services you enjoyed.

That's my take.

 

[iloveclones]

I could potentially be okay with Marvel's monthly-flat-fee subscription service. If the content is going to be up on their servers forever, it's effectively as good as owning the issues on your hard drive. Then again, I doubt Marvel gives its subscribers any kind of assurance of that permanency.

But the real problem for me is your complaint about consecutive runs. I don't want just some of the old issues of, say, Thor; I'm the kind of person who'll sit down and read literally every issue of an old comic, spanning decades. Marvel's subcription service would be ideal for that because, let's face it, not everything from that far back is reprinted in trades and the back issues are often nearly impossible to find; so, if you're looking to read a straight run from 1963 to the present, you're 99.9% likely to be reading it on a computer screen. I'd much rather read it via Marvel's digital subscription service than torrents and at least give a little something back to the publisher, but their subscription service right now seems pretty haphazard at best. I know major online databases like that tend to suck at first before they build up their content--Hulu was god-awful for a while in the early days, too--but this is like 2 or 3 years after it was introduced, right? Marvel's really gotta get behind the digital subscription service and give us full runs of the major cornerstone series like Amazing Spider-Man, Avengers, X-Men, etc. If I ever see that, I'll give serious thought to subscribing. 'Til then, it's just not worth it.

I finally finished the Dark Tower novels. I never wanted to read the comics until I read the books, but I've been buying them. I don't really want to search through my many, many longboxes for the actual comics, so I thought I'd read it online. Only the first one of the first series is there. That tells me more than anything that they're not taking this system seriously enough.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

To me, this falls into my all-the-way rule.
If something compelled you to read all-the-way through the comic, the creative team did their job.

Even if it was a slow-down-and-look-at-the-car-crash fascination...
Or an Ed-Wood-like so-bad-it's-funny scenario...
Or maybe even if it's YOUR need to just see-how-the-story-ended...

You don't have to tell me that, I bought Hulk for 13 issues before snapping out of my stupor and dropping it

 

[TheCorpulent1]

And we're all very proud of you for it (and only mildly disgusted that it took you that long).

 

[Colossal Spoons]

I get my A-Bomb fix elsewhere now

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I finally finished the Dark Tower novels. I never wanted to read the comics until I read the books, but I've been buying them. I don't really want to search through my many, many longboxes for the actual comics, so I thought I'd read it online. Only the first one of the first series is there. That tells me more than anything that they're not taking this system seriously enough.

Yeah, good idea, lazy follow-through. Granted, that might be a vicious cycle because people aren't subscribing because there's not much worth subscribing for, so Marvel can't muster the funds to provide better content.

 

[iloveclones]

^ Enter the Mouse

 

[Harlekin]

If I download (and I seldom do), it's for one of two reasons:
1) for a quick sample of a particular title, I won't download issues consecutively.
2) pre-trade comics, of which I buy back-issues when possible.

If I had never downloaded, I would never have discovered Priest's Black Panther (of which there are only two trades) or John Ostrander's Suicide Squad/Spectre/Martian Manhunter (anything of his, really), both titles which I'm working hard to get completely.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

^ Enter the Mouse

I imagine Marvel would have to convince them that a more robust digital subscription service would lead to more money via licensing. That's probably all Disney really cares about: making as much money off of Marvel's library of characters with the largest possible audience.

 

[JewishHobbit]

It makes sense if you go to a restaurant, take one bite of your food, and say, "This is horrible! I'm not eating this! Or paying for it!"
It's another thing if you FINISH the meal, put your knife and fork down, and THEN say that.

If you HAVE made an illegal download of a comic-- and you DID read it all the way to the end-- you SHOULD reach all the way into your wallet-- and pay for the services you enjoyed.

That's my take.

The unfortunate thing is most comic shops won't refund you your money for a comic you think sucked. It's not renting you know.

 

[JewishHobbit]

^ Enter the Mouse

Hah! Despite how simple it is... there's just something about this quote that I love. This should be some sort of slogan.

 

[iloveclones]

It sounds like a Animated Kung-Fu movie. (Oh, please God, don't let Disney be listening...)

 

[iloveclones]

I imagine Marvel would have to convince them that a more robust digital subscription service would lead to more money via licensing. That's probably all Disney really cares about: making as much money off of Marvel's library of characters with the largest possible audience.

Welllllll, annoying as they can be, there are lots of avenues to advertise and sell whilst online....

 

[JewishHobbit]

It sounds like a Animated Kung-Fu movie. (Oh, please God, don't let Disney be listening...)

Kung-Fu Panda baby... great movie!

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Welllllll, annoying as they can be, there are lots of avenues to advertise and sell whilst online....

True. Marvel's got that viewer that opens in its own window, so I'm sure they could just have ads somewhere in there. I can deal with legal streaming video sites putting commercials into their videos, so I'm sure I could deal with an ad in a comic viewer.

 

[Dan_Slott]

The unfortunate thing is most comic shops won't refund you your money for a comic you think sucked. It's not renting you know.

The stadium won't refund your ticket if you didn't like the game.
The multiplex won't refund your ticket if you didn't like the movie.
The theater won't refund your ticket if you didn't like the concert.

What's your point?

Yes, it's not renting. But the alternative shouldn't be stealing.

The biggest difference (to me) seems to be the chances of getting caught. You wouldn't shoplift a comic from your LCS, right? But clicking a few buttons is easy-- and it doesn't feel like anyone might reach out, grab you, report you, and/or ban you from their store.
It's the "invisibility" of the internet. It feels like if any of these illegal downloaders COULD turn invisible in the real world, they'd feel perfectly fine with running around and taking whatever they wanted from any store out there. And their take would be "Hey, if they couldn't come up with ways to stop invisible men, it's their fault."