Why Jean joining with Magneto works

[XCharlieX]

Well said Nell.. thats exactly the reason why Phoenix was with Magneto.

 

[WorthyStevens]

Six viewings! Wow! I'm about to do my third... and have bought the soundtrack CD and am on chapter 5 of the novelisation which i bought yesterday.

I'm on my fourth viewing.

 

[Cyke82]

Honestly, I'm not trying to make stuff up in my mind to make it work. My post is exactly how it was explained in the movies.

In regards to her alliance with Magneto, I agree. You summed that up very well. But in regards to other aspects about the Phoenix story, I disagree. And I'm fairly sure we watched the same movie, so I hope you can drop the "That's exactly how it was explained in the movie" thing. Because first of all, everything you pointed out about the previous two movies and the growth of Jean's power as it relates to those movies going into the third is simply your take on it. Secondly, I'll be the first to admit that I'm far from a genius, but if the movie did such a fantastic job of explainaing the whole Phoenix thing including the relation to the previous two films, I don't think I'd be sitting here with those concerns to begin with.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

In regards to her alliance with Magneto, I agree. You summed that up very well. But in regards to other aspects about the Phoenix story, I disagree. And I'm fairly sure we watched the same movie, so I hope you can drop the "That's exactly how it was explained in the movie" thing. Because first of all, everything you pointed out about the previous two movies and the growth of Jean's power as it relates to those movies going into the third is simply your take on it. Secondly, I'll be the first to admit that I'm far from a genius, but if the movie did such a fantastic job of explainaing the whole Phoenix thing including the relation to the previous two films, I don't think I'd be sitting here with those concerns to begin with.

Well, it's me putting 2 and 2 together with everything that's been explained in 3 movies.

If you don't interpret it that way, that's fine. I never said you were wrong for thinking otherwise. It's your opinion, and you have your right to it, and unlike some people, you at least back up why you think that way.

For me, it's simply putting together everything that's been explained over 3 movies, and putting it together to find out how it works together. Unfortunatley, movie interpretations aren't as clear cut as 2 + 2 = 4, so some people will have different interpretations of what happened. But for those who don't think certain things worked, I'm just trying to offer an explanation of why it could work out. But I'm far from pulling **** out of my ass.

 

[Cyke82]

Well, it's me putting 2 and 2 together with everything that's been explained in 3 movies.

As you yourself said, movie interpretations are more than 2+2=4, so you're probably doing more than just putting two and two together. And again, if it were simply a matter of connecting the dots, I'd like to think I'm capable enough to do that.

But I'm far from pulling **** out of my ass.

That's not how I meant my statement to read; I didn't want to make it sound like I was calling you a bull****ter, so I apoligize if that's how it came across. However, I think to an extent, your interpretation involves assumptions that you feel fill in the blanks rather than facts that actually occurred in the movie.

Just as an example, you claim that we don't see the Phoenix personality in X2 because Jean's been "in control" for so long. But to me, according to Xavier's explanation, that doesn't make much sense. Xavier describes the conscious Jean Grey we knew as a person "whose powers were always in control." Yet she obviously isn't controlling her powers in the museum, and no personality is visible. I believe she even says that her telepathy has been on the fritz.

Yet again, no sign of the personality. If Jean is the side we see when she is able to control her powers, then I would think logically we should see the Phoenix side when she can't. But we don't, and I personally don't think the long reign of her normal personality works that well as an explanation of why, nor do I recall hearing that explanation in X3. If anything, the dormant and practically jailed evil personality should be seizing every opportunity to show itself and try to gain control, IMO. But it's not.

Furthermore, regarding her display of powers at the lake, Xavier specifically says in X3 that he created blocks to isolate Jean's power from her, and those blocks resulted in the formation of Phoenix. You note that at that time the barriers were destroyed, as evident by the large display of power at the conclusion of X2. Yet again, despite being able to access these powers, we see no sign of the associated personality that accompanies them.

If the powers are associated with the personality, which actually is right from the movie because that's what Xavier tells us ("...I created a series of psychic barriers to isolate her powers from her conscious mind. As a result, Jean developed a dual personality..."), and we see evidence of the powers, then I can only conclude that we should see at least some evidence of the personality.

But we don't, and this is where the explanation breaks down for me, whereas it seems you have developed reasons as to why it makes sense. You've taken what all three movies present and have formulated a general explanation for it all. Yet that explanation uses your own ideas and reasoning in it, and is not exactly 100% word for word as the movie explained it simply because the movie didn't address all of these issues. For instance, as I recall, the movie never explained why the Phoenix personality makes no appearance in X2, but you did in your explanation.

And that's why I said that fans, in an attempt to rectify the poor job the movie did in handling some of these issues, create a kind of explanation that works for them. Their own intrepretation, if you will. I didn't say that to be negative or to insult you. You came up with a logical (at least to you) explanation, and that's great, but it's my opinion that that should have been the movie's job, and even your very good and appreciated attempt leaves lingering questions still in my mind.

Again, I don't say all this to call you a bull****ter or to say you're pulling stuff out of your ass. I don't say that to be mean spirited or insulting at all. My point being that the explanation from the movies in regards to Phoenix, were it good and had it worked, shouldn't have had any blanks to begin with.

Here we are though, with me writing out a detailed response and getting into a debate I said I wasn't going to. So I'll leave it at that. Again, no ill-intentions, but just my take on things.

 

[BMM]

I've seen some discussion over the matter of "why would Jean tag along with Magneto" and such... but the decision to have Jean side with Magneto makes perfect sense.

First of all, it's comic canon. Sure, she didn't side with the Brotherhood in the comics, but it was the Hellfire Club, who manipulated her Dark Phoenix state to their advantage, am I correct? . . .

Especially since there was some stuff going on with the Hellfire Club in the comics... there's a precedence for Jean siding with the side against the X-Men.

I agree with your post for the most part. I don't have a problem with Jean joining the Brotherhood. I would have liked to have seen the story explored in a different manner, but it makes sense. It is a bit different in that Jean was manipulated against her will to join the Hellfire Club to do their bidding, whereas in X3 she is not for the most part. As stated by Janssen in an interview, Jean is not taking sides. She simply has no place else to go. Magneto nor anyone else has control over her--She is Phoenix and this is simply what she has decided to do (and nobody can stand in her way) . . . so in that respect, I think there is a fair difference in how the stories play out.

I think it's a bit conflicting because Janssen makes it a point to note that Jean is not choosing sides, which seems to conflict a bit with Magneto's attempt at persuading her in the end . . . but I don't think this is so much Jean being manipulated by Magneto, as it is her lashing out at the multiple humans trying to eliminate her with dozens of cure darts. As previously demonstrated in the forest scene, Magneto's attempts at manipulating Jean do nothing. She is nobody's pawn. He attempts to coerce her, and she clearly demonstrates that he has no power over her when she threatens him with the cure darts in his face. This is all Jean's choice, as she is (and apparently always has been) a creature of passion wielded by no one but herself.

Great points. All Ratner did was replace the Hellfire Club with the Brotherhood. WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL???

I guess people wouldve preferred if Magneto use Mastermind's help to brainwash Jean Grey into working for him. Too bad Mastermind was already used in X2 by Singer for a story completely unrelated to the Phoenix Saga. In other words send your hate-mail to Singer, NOT Ratner.

And as for this kind of crap, we could get into the what if game concerning the hints of Sebastion Shaw in X2 (and the implications it could have had in future films) as well as the plans of including the White Queen, etc. in X3 (who plays just as equal a part in helping to manipulate Jean) and what that entails concerning the potential possibilities of the Hellfire Club's involvement.

X3 can actually stand on its own for a change . . . these kinds of comments simply demonstrate what little convictions you have for the film, as the only way you seem to be able to bolster it, is by attempting to trash the other two that even made this one a possibility. X3 can be good on its own merits.

That being said, Nell, I essentially agree with your points. For what the writers were trying to accomplish, it does work.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

As you yourself said, movie interpretations are more than 2+2=4, so you're probably doing more than just putting two and two together. And again, if it were simply a matter of connecting the dots, I'd like to think I'm capable enough to do that.




That's not how I meant my statement to read; I didn't want to make it sound like I was calling you a bull****ter, so I apoligize if that's how it came across. However, I think to an extent, your interpretation involves assumptions that you feel fill in the blanks rather than facts that actually occurred in the movie.

Just as an example, you claim that we don't see the Phoenix personality in X2 because Jean's been "in control" for so long. But to me, according to Xavier's explanation, that doesn't make much sense. Xavier describes the conscious Jean Grey we knew as a person "whose powers were always in control." Yet she obviously isn't controlling her powers in the museum, and no personality is visible. I believe she even says that her telepathy has been on the fritz.

Yet again, no sign of the personality. If Jean is the side we see when she is able to control her powers, then I would think logically we should see the Phoenix side when she can't. But we don't, and I personally don't think the long reign of her normal personality works that well as an explanation of why, nor do I recall hearing that explanation in X3. If anything, the dormant and practically jailed evil personality should be seizing every opportunity to show itself and try to gain control, IMO. But it's not.

Furthermore, regarding her display of powers at the lake, Xavier specifically says in X3 that he created blocks to isolate Jean's power from her, and those blocks resulted in the formation of Phoenix. You note that at that time the barriers were destroyed, as evident by the large display of power at the conclusion of X2. Yet again, despite being able to access these powers, we see no sign of the associated personality that accompanies them.

If the powers are associated with the personality, which actually is right from the movie because that's what Xavier tells us ("...I created a series of psychic barriers to isolate her powers from her conscious mind. As a result, Jean developed a dual personality..."), and we see evidence of the powers, then I can only conclude that we should see at least some evidence of the personality.

But we don't, and this is where the explanation breaks down for me, whereas it seems you have developed reasons as to why it makes sense. You've taken what all three movies present and have formulated a general explanation for it all. Yet that explanation uses your own ideas and reasoning in it, and is not exactly 100% word for word as the movie explained it simply because the movie didn't address all of these issues. For instance, as I recall, the movie never explained why the Phoenix personality makes no appearance in X2, but you did in your explanation.

And that's why I said that fans, in an attempt to rectify the poor job the movie did in handling some of these issues, create a kind of explanation that works for them. Their own intrepretation, if you will. I didn't say that to be negative or to insult you. You came up with a logical (at least to you) explanation, and that's great, but it's my opinion that that should have been the movie's job, and even your very good and appreciated attempt leaves lingering questions still in my mind.

Again, I don't say all this to call you a bull****ter or to say you're pulling stuff out of your ass. I don't say that to be mean spirited or insulting at all. My point being that the explanation from the movies in regards to Phoenix, were it good and had it worked, shouldn't have had any blanks to begin with.

Here we are though, with me writing out a detailed response and getting into a debate I said I wasn't going to. So I'll leave it at that. Again, no ill-intentions, but just my take on things.

I guess the difference is, cyke, that the Phoenix alter ego isn't really a manifestation of her powers, but rather the blocks that Xavier put in. He basically split her mind in 2. The only connection to the powers is that, the power is seeded in the part of her mind that he blocked off, and where the alter ego formed.

And I think that's why the reign of Jean's real personality was able to prevail.

The Phoenix personality isn't part of her Phoenix powers... it's a manifestation of Xavier essentially splitting her mind into 2.

The psi barriers broke, and she was able to tap into those powers that she had (and in some parts, they were uncontrolled, as we see in the musuem, and on the jet)... but emotionally she was still in control... the Phoenix personality had been surpressed for so long.

But basically, after she "died" at Alkali Lake, that took her Jean personality with it, and allowed the dormant, Phoenix personality to awaken.

I think that's where the difference lies. Her Phoenix powers and personality are in the same part of her mind, yes, but they aren't one in the same. She always had the powers. She didn't always have the Phoenix personality. It wasn't until Xavier blocked her powers off from her concious mind, and essentially split her mind in 2, that the Phoenix personality came to be.

And that IS in the movie

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

I believe in the comics the reason why Jean was so hesitant about using her powers to their full capacity was based in part on when her powers began to manifest as she psychically experienced the death of her best friend. They should have touched upon that in the movies.

 

[zer00]

Good ****ing post

 

[Cyke82]

The Phoenix personality isn't part of her Phoenix powers...

I guess this is where I once again disagree, because it's clear based on Xavier's explanation that the two are related due to their both being restricted and controlled by the blocks as well as their location in Jean's mind.

I definitely don't recall saying they were one and the same, but rather, I said they were associated. Which, by their nature as outlined above, they are. And it still seems completely illogical to me that Jean would be able to tap into the powers previously blocked by these barriers, displaying an inconsistent ability to control these powers, yet the personality that is also blocked off would not show itself in some form at all.

Let's also keep in mind that, according to Xavier's explanation, the Jean personality has NEVER had to deal with or subdue the Phoenix personality. By the nature of its creation, it was always blocked from Jean's conscious mind, and thus, has been taken care of for her, if you will. Yet according to your explanation, we're supposed to believe that when the blocks weaken and eventually come down altogether, despite being unable at times to control her growing powers, Jean had absolutely no problem keeping an entirely separate personality - a personality she (1) had no experience controlling herself and (2) is exceptionally powerful and virtually incapable of restraining as we see in X3 - at bay? All this because it had been subdued for so long? (note: wow, what a run-on sentence!)

Again, this is where the explanation breaks down for me. I think it's because of the fact that her Phoenix personality has been suppressed for so long that, once an opening was created in the decay and destruction of the blocks combined with Jean's inability to maintain control of her powers, it would have pushed even harder at that time for its freedom, not just wait around dormant on the off chance that the Jean personality "dies" yet the body remains in tact.

Are we supposed to believe that, had Jean not "died," her personality would have remained in control forever? That, without the catalyst of her death, the Phoenix persona would have never emerged? That's the implication, since your explanation claims the Phoenix personality wasn't able to take control until Jean's personality "died" at the lake. Which again, to me, just seems like a flawed part of the argument.

I'm not a psych major at the moment (though I was at one time), but I don't think there are many cases of multiple personalities where one persona always remains in control while the other just lays around dormant with no episodes of control, biding its time and banking on the off chance that when one personality bites the dust somehow the body will still be salvagable.

And we know the subconscious Phoenix persona couldn't have created the cocoon that saved the body, since you claim it wasn't able to take control until after the Jean persona was killed. The Jean persona would have been alive until the moment of impact of the wave, so the dormant Phoenix persona couldn't have created the cocoon that saved her, contrary to your claim. Talk about a lucky guess on the Phoenix's part, knowing to just hang back and assume the Jean side would save their body yet die in the process!

All kidding aside, I hope that even if you disagree with what I've presented, you can at least see where my problems lie. Even in the detailed explanation you've set forth, there are flaws that I still can't just ignore. And maybe that's just me. Your explanation works for you and maybe it works well work for many others. But it doesn't work for me, and I hope I've been able to expressed why. The best we can hope to do is simply recognize our differing opinions on this, because it seems clear neither of us is going to present such a case as to completely change the other's mind.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I guess this is where I once again disagree, because it's clear based on Xavier's explanation that the two are related due to their both being restricted and controlled by the blocks as well as their location in Jean's mind.

I definitely don't recall saying they were one and the same, but rather, I said they were associated. Which, by their nature as outlined above, they are. And it still seems completely illogical to me that Jean would be able to tap into the powers previously blocked by these barriers, displaying an inconsistent ability to control these powers, yet the personality that is also blocked off would not show itself in some form at all.

Let's also keep in mind that, according to Xavier's explanation, the Jean personality has NEVER had to deal with or subdue the Phoenix personality. By the nature of its creation, it was always blocked from Jean's conscious mind, and thus, has been taken care of for her, if you will. Yet according to your explanation, we're supposed to believe that when the blocks weaken and eventually come down altogether, despite being unable at times to control her growing powers, Jean had absolutely no problem keeping an entirely separate personality - a personality she (1) had no experience controlling herself and (2) is exceptionally powerful and virtually incapable of restraining as we see in X3 - at bay? All this because it had been subdued for so long? (note: wow, what a run-on sentence!)

Again, this is where the explanation breaks down for me. I think it's because of the fact that her Phoenix personality has been suppressed for so long that, once an opening was created in the decay and destruction of the blocks combined with Jean's inability to maintain control of her powers, it would have pushed even harder at that time for its freedom, not just wait around dormant on the off chance that the Jean personality "dies" yet the body remains in tact.

Are we supposed to believe that, had Jean not "died," her personality would have remained in control forever? That, without the catalyst of her death, the Phoenix persona would have never emerged? That's the implication, since your explanation claims the Phoenix personality wasn't able to take control until Jean's personality "died" at the lake. Which again, to me, just seems like a flawed part of the argument.

I'm not a psych major at the moment (though I was at one time), but I don't think there are many cases of multiple personalities where one persona always remains in control while the other just lays around dormant with no episodes of control, biding its time and banking on the off chance that when one personality bites the dust somehow the body will still be salvagable.

And we know the subconscious Phoenix persona couldn't have created the cocoon that saved the body, since you claim it wasn't able to take control until after the Jean persona was killed. The Jean persona would have been alive until the moment of impact of the wave, so the dormant Phoenix persona couldn't have created the cocoon that saved her, contrary to your claim. Talk about a lucky guess on the Phoenix's part, knowing to just hang back and assume the Jean side would save their body yet die in the process!

All kidding aside, I hope that even if you disagree with what I've presented, you can at least see where my problems lie. Even in the detailed explanation you've set forth, there are flaws that I still can't just ignore. And maybe that's just me. Your explanation works for you and maybe it works well work for many others. But it doesn't work for me, and I hope I've been able to expressed why. The best we can hope to do is simply recognize our differing opinions on this, because it seems clear neither of us is going to present such a case as to completely change the other's mind.

I definatley understand where you're coming from, and like I said earlier, at least you back your **** up and discuss it intelligently, so I've no problem debating this with you

Unfortunatley, I gotta go to work, so I can't really present an indepth rebuttal at this time, but the jist of it is, you think there's flaws in my arguement, and I think there's some in yours. But, like I said, movie interpretations aren't as clear cut as 2 + 2 = 4, so where I might see something one way, and it works, you don't interpret it that way, and you notice inconsitancies from one movie to the next. I don't agree with your interpretation of the explanation, but I can see how you'd come to it.

I'll be the first to admit that this movie wasn't the best when it comes to stuff that's not action.

 

[Drago]

I don't think she necessarily joined with Magneto- it definitely looked to me like she was neutral, there mostly because he was taking care of her more than anything else

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Again, Jean had no where else to go.