Will Batman still be a killer in this film?

[Luke234]

That explains why you like the DCEU.



It's not a new thing. It's been causing fan upset since Michael Keaton's days.

Yeah. I just saw the backlash stuff above and was surprised too. I just don't remember anyone ever saying anything about it. I hung out with comic readers. They all loved it at the time. But obviously there were other circles. Interesting.

 

[Luke234]

When a hero is known for having one rule it's sort of a big deal when the director s***s all over it.

Especially when his greatest adversary has been alive killing people all these years BECAUSE of his rule. Allowing him to live, and go to Arkham. Why doesn't Ben just snap Leto's neck? He clearly has no regard for human life. It unintentionally takes away a vital part of their relationship. The Joker knows he can't kill, and uses it against him. I'd be shaking in my boots if I were Leto's Joker. I see that as a huge problem if they decide to have those two meet in Batfleck's solo movie. It just makes no sense, so naturally it fits right into the DCeU...

I totally understand this and why fans of the comics are upset. I'm just selfishly liked the story that was told. I liked the character arc ,with the dude becoming more unhinged because of the events from MOS.
For me, not really caring too much what the comic made him, obviously let me enjoy the movie where otherwise maybe I wouldn't have.

 

[Luke234]

That's where I'd just disagree. I think things make sense ( within these two movies so far) but to each his own.

 

[2kt09]

When a hero is known for having one rule it's sort of a big deal when the director s***s all over it.

Except we knew from the start because of yet another Frank Miller adaptation just as we knew he was going to be very ruthless, until the eventual turn IF they managed to make him turn within the same movie.

Especially when his greatest adversary has been alive killing people all these years BECAUSE of his rule. Allowing him to live, and go to Arkham. Why doesn't Ben just snap Leto's neck? He clearly has no regard for human life. It unintentionally takes away a vital part of their relationship. The Joker knows he can't kill, and uses it against him. I'd be shaking in my boots if I were Leto's Joker. I see that as a huge problem if they decide to have those two meet in Batfleck's solo movie. It just makes no sense, so naturally it fits right into the DCeU...

There has to be an understanding of the timeline of events because one movie teases a dead Robin + all the other **** that has made him so jaded and the other has Batman simply knocking out Harley with the Joker on the loose.

As an aside, while I prefer a non-killing Batman, I think the first Keaton movie was actually not terrible in this regard. While he did use deadly force at several points, it was *not* his first option. Prior to blowing up the Axis Chemical plant, he didn't kill anybody, and at that point, the Joker had a body count in the triple digits most like. Its not a horrible position that destroying the Joker's personal chemical weapons factory was more critical than making sure his mooks didn't die.

I do so love the Kill count videos. Quite surprised they're only 10 kills apart from each other even after the factory blows up and Batman is still on a killing spree.

 

[Mandon Knight]

No, he won't 'kill' in future Batman featuring films, but heh, Nolan's Batman didn't kill either so what do we know....

 

[Luke234]

Ok, so does Batman really kill in the Frank Miller one? I thought that was like the most popular comic( or the one where Robin gets killed).
Was Batman killing a guy in his sleep a joke?

 

[The Joker]

No, he didn't kill in Miller's.

 

[Luke234]

Gotcha.

 

[JOE]

I totally understand this and why fans of the comics are upset. I'm just selfishly liked the story that was told. I liked the character arc ,with the dude becoming more unhinged because of the events from MOS.
For me, not really caring too much what the comic made him, obviously let me enjoy the movie where otherwise maybe I wouldn't have.

Nothing wrong with that!

If more people had this attitude, maybe these boards would be a more peaceful place. However, there are those who cling to the source material, and have every right to do so. It's hard to please everyone.

Except we knew from the start because of yet another Frank Miller adaptation just as we knew he was going to be very ruthless, until the eventual turn IF they managed to make him turn within the same movie.

There has to be an understanding of the timeline of events because one movie teases a dead Robin + all the other **** that has made him so jaded and the other has Batman simply knocking out Harley with the Joker on the loose.

Ruthless, sure? Cold blooded murderer is another thing. There's a big difference between the two.

I don't buy how being "jaded" justifies his actions. It's a lot easier to just kill the men you're chasing down rather than stopping them while preserving their lives. It's lazy... It's not Batman.

 

[2kt09]

Ruthless, sure? Cold blooded murderer is another thing. There's a big difference between the two.

No. Not when the trailers then reassure you that that's what he's going to be.

I don't buy how being "jaded" justifies his actions. It's a lot easier to just kill the men you're chasing down rather than stopping them while preserving their lives. It's lazy... It's not Batman.

Sure it is. All the people who he cared for is dead (minus the butler) because of the criminals he let live. Factor in a literal 9/11 before his own eyes all because of otherworldly monsters and...yeah. If he lets the smaller fries live, they'll be tormented to death in prison.

 

[The Joker]

Sure it is. All the people who he cared for is dead (minus the butler) because of the criminals he let live. Factor in a literal 9/11 before his own eyes all because of otherworldly monsters and...yeah. If he lets the smaller fries live, they'll be tormented to death in prison.

No, it's not. Batman is human of course, and it's not like he doesn't want to kill some of the scum he faces, especially the Joker;

But he's not so weak minded that he would become so jaded that he'd allow himself to turn into the very thing he hates so much. He's seen Batgirl crippled, Robin killed, his son Damien killed etc, he's become so jaded that he's willing to throw in the towel as Batman, but he never allowed himself cross that line no matter how bad his life was.

 

[2kt09]

No, it's not. Batman is human of course, and it's not like he doesn't want to kill some of the scum he faces, especially the Joker;

But he's not so weak minded that he would become so jaded that he'd allow himself to turn into the very thing he hates so much. He's seen Batgirl crippled, Robin killed, his son Damien killed etc, he's become so jaded that he's willing to throw in the towel as Batman, but he never allowed himself cross that line no matter how bad his life was.

Lmfao, that's not human. That's an idol. He kills in movies because it's just that unavoidable.
Nolan did the best he could, but he had his slip-ups if you're going to ground Batman inside a motherf***ing tank.
The DCEU is trying, though, obviously failing, in humanizing these Gods.
It's so much easier to handle this when you don't have to dwell on it.

 

[OutOfBoose]

What's the chance Snyder was flipping through DKR pages and saw the sequence, where Batman is driving a tank and gunning down mutants with rubber bullets, and said "Batman doesn't kill, my ass..."?

 

[idiot09]

Lmfao, that's not human. That's an idol.

Reminds me of a quote from Zack :

The so-called no-win scenario is the only way to test a hero's rules and ethics. And it's the only way to move forward with a hero, because otherwise the hero drowns in the mire of his own morality, in that he never can go forward, he never can evolve. He becomes an allegory, he's a lesson, like, "This is the way to be, kids," not a real story. He becomes like one of the Ten Commandments. He's not like an actual [person].So you give him a real-world scenario, and that's when we all grow up.

 

[2kt09]

Reminds me of a quote from Zack

Now he just needs some writers to fine tune that to his sensibilities AND to a wider audience or else his movies will continue to be this esoteric.
I guess that's why more are looking forward to THIS Batman, since it's being developed by a 'Batman' if that makes any sense.

 

[Zarex]

Reminds me of a quote from Zack :

It's like that scene in CA:TFA when Steve is forced to burn the American flag in order to light the way to freedom for the rescued POWs. It upset an awful lot of folks at the time, but what other choice did he have?

 

[idiot09]

It's like that scene in CA:TFA when Steve is forced to burn the American flag in order to light the way to freedom for the rescued POWs. It upset an awful lot of folks at the time, but what other choice did he have?

True. That was a great scene.

 

[Patchwork Man]

I want Batman to punch women like he did 25 years ago.

Just kidding! He's only fighting a CATwoman!

 

[The Joker]

What's the chance Snyder was flipping through DKR pages and saw the sequence, where Batman is driving a tank and gunning down mutants with rubber bullets, and said "Batman doesn't kill, my ass..."?

Highly likely.

Lmfao, that's not human. That's an idol. He kills in movies because it's just that unavoidable.

It is perfectly avoidable.

For example Daredevil in the Marvel TV show is very much human, not to mention he's blind, and he very plausibly takes out criminals all the time without killing them. He doesn't have half the tech that Batman has either.

The DCEU is trying, though, obviously failing, in humanizing these Gods.

Batman is not a god. He's very much a human being. I agree though they are failing with these characters.

It's so much easier to handle this when you don't have to dwell on it.

Not everyone can lower their standards that much.

 

[Patchwork Man]

Nah. Most decent movies don't have such obvious quantities of conveniences every corner you look. Kind of like Superman suddenly calling his mother by name pre-death. Very convenient stuff.

Iron Man showing up in Siberia. What if he'd gone for shawarma instead? t:

 

[Patchwork Man]

For example Daredevil in the Marvel TV show is very much human, not to mention he's blind, and he very plausibly takes out criminals all the time without killing them. He doesn't have half the tech that Batman has either.

And yet, Daredevil's radar sense is no small advantage, either. He's also gone up against scores of ninjas. DD can make quick work of street thugs. Daredevil will never enjoy a run as great as Miller's. That was amazing.

 

[2kt09]

It is perfectly avoidable.

Eh...I've gotten as far as Spider-man is as close as it gets.

For example Daredevil in the Marvel TV show is very much human, not to mention he's blind, and he very plausibly takes out criminals all the time without killing them. He doesn't have half the tech that Batman has either.

I don't take that seriously if you didn't notice the previous post.
Even if the fights were more competently done, it's still the same issue I have with Cap having to be explicit about it as his opponents get...

Batman is not a god. He's very much a human being.

He's also a living weapon who IF he actually is human is bound to make mistakes OR act on his severe emotions/depression.
I don't assume everyone in a kungfu flick can get back up, but I also don't need to be preached upon "killing is bad".

Not everyone can lower their standards that much.

I'm talking about writers and directors, not the consumers.
If that's all it takes to separate DC from the rest, sure w/e.

 

[The Joker]

What's the chance Snyder was flipping through DKR pages and saw the sequence, where Batman is driving a tank and gunning down mutants with rubber bullets, and said "Batman doesn't kill, my ass..."?

Here read this;

http://www.cbr.com/movie-legends-re...ually-kill-anyone-in-the-dark-knight-returns/

Eh...I've gotten as far as Spider-man is as close as it gets.

As close as it gets to what? He's got super powers. Any characters with super powers can avoid it easily if they wish. They have heaps of advantages over regular people.

I don't take that seriously if you didn't notice the previous post.
Even if the fights were more competently done, it's still the same issue I have with Cap having to be explicit about it as his opponents get...

Whether you take it seriously or not, it's still completely valid. Daredevil is a fantastic showcase of how it can be plausibly done with a normal human being. If they're smart they'll look to it for inspiration on how to do it right. Or better yet look to the comics. Or BTAS.

He's also a living weapon who IF he actually is human is bound to make mistakes OR act on his severe emotions/depression.
I don't assume everyone in a kungfu flick can get back up, but I also don't need to be preached upon "killing is bad".

That's no excuse. Every hero is a living weapon, that's why they're so effective. They can do what the authorities can't. There is no preaching that killing is bad. Batman simply has a morality of not killing.

I'm talking about writers and directors, not the consumers.
If that's all it takes to separate DC from the rest, sure w/e.

The writers and directors obviously don't care, that's why they shovel out this crap.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Iron Man showing up in Siberia. What if he'd gone for shawarma instead? t:

I must've missed the part where Iron Man has a no kill policy.

This is bottom of the barrel stuff. I feel embarassed for you.

 

[2kt09]

As close as it gets to what? He's got super powers. Any characters with super powers can avoid it easily if they wish. They have heaps of advantages over regular people.

Webs <- the most nonlethal thing you can do to your opponent is to instantly immobilize them.

If his opponent is more powerful than that, there isn't much to care beyond seeing a neat sequence wherein Spider-Man gets to be brutal.

Whether you take it seriously or not, it's still completely valid. Daredevil is a fantastic showcase of how it can be plausibly done with a normal human being. If they're smart they'll look to it for inspiration on how to do it right. Or better yet look to the comics. Or BTAS.

Even Bruce Timm doesn't need to rely on that (why I love Gods & Monsters just as much). It was common practice for kid's shows not to have your main character kill. Spider-Man TAS took it a step further by almost never actually landing a single punch. I don't read comics or watch shows/movies for this. It's a cute little plot device that gets developed well every once in a while.

That's no excuse. Every hero is a living weapon, that's why they're so effective. They can do what the authorities can't. There is no preaching that killing is bad. Batman simply has a morality of not killing.

It's a dumb morality and makes him worse than human since he only has his butler after all this dread. Daredevil, if that's the most comparable, still has his circle of friends.

The writers and directors obviously don't care, that's why they shovel out this crap.

Clearly they cared enough to make this stupid little thing so "divisive".