Will fans ever allow Nightwing to surpass Batman?

[larryfilmmaker]

The student becomes the master and youth replaces age. That's just life and the way of things... so will it ever be acceptable to establish that maybe Nightwing is atleast a better fighter than Batman? I mean... if Batman is really the best ever at everything, then didn't Nightwing have the single best instructor in the entire world and pass with flying colors? If Batman is so obsessed with his war, wouldn't he have made sure that he'd passed on everything he possibly could to Grayson to ensure that the war goes on after Bruce is old or dead? No, Tim doesn't figure in. Neither does Jason, or Azrael, or whatever. I'm talking the originals. Batman and Robin. Father and son. Why is this like one of the only characters who isn't allowed to be surpassed by his protege? I mean... doesn't it make the character and story that much cooler if things are allowed to progress naturally? I know people are going to start spouting off Batman's ridiculously unmatched abilities and superhuman everything, but storywise, why won't fans let this happen? I'm not saying to do it forever, or maybe not even in continuity, but how long can a character be a protege? Especially one as unique and (growingly) popular as Grayson/Nightwing/Robin?

 

[Rockbottom]

Simple, because people like Bruce as Batman. Without Bruce Batman is just a costume and a name, sure if it was the real world then Grayson would more than likely take over, but because its not and Batman isn't going to get too old and/or die (without being restarted as Bruce from after year one or around there). If they did make Grayson the Batman (although im not sure if you mean Nightwing taking over Batman or just Dick becoming Batman) for the rest of time, not many people would be happy.

 

[Texas Zombie]

Yeah nightwing is awesome. I hope eventually he gets more popular like batman.

 

[Two-Face]

Well I wouldn't be happy if Nightwing becomes Batman, Bruce Wayne is The Dark Knight.

 

[Bat Attack]

"Will fans ever allow Nightwing to surpass Batman?"

This fan wouldn't.

 

[batmaluco]

There aren't many fans that would really like this.
Perhaps Nightwing fans but not Batman fans.

 

[CConn]

No.

 

[CConn]

Also, Nightwing really hasn't been Batman's protege in about 30 years, so I dunno what larry's talking about there.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Also, Nightwing really hasn't been Batman's protege in about 30 years, so I dunno what larry's talking about there.

Infinite Crisis pretty much reminded everybody that he is.

The point isn't will Dick become Batman or Tim or anybody else. It's will they ever let the almight Teacher finally be surpassed by the student? Would they flat out admit that without super enhancements Terry McGuiness would kick Bruce Wayne's butt one on one? Would they quit thinking up lame things like "Dick is a much better leader", "Dick is much faster than Bruce", "Dick is much more agile" and just finally say "Dick might be able to take him"? Seeing Bruce surpassed by his student is NOT a bad or insulting thing to Bruce Wayne... it's the best thing a father can experience in a way.

 

[DGrayson]

I would allow that, in fact I want to see it happen. I want comics to state that Dick Grayson is at least a better fighter than Bruce Wayne.

 

[Two-Face]

I would allow that, in fact I want to see it happen. I want comics to state that Dick Grayson is at least a better fighter than Bruce Wayne.

WHAT?!

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Wouldn't Bruce Wayne want his heir to be better than he? Wouldn't that be the smartest way to continue the war on crime? What's the big deal with all of this? It's not bat-blasphemy... it's just breaking the cliche of Bruce Wayne being completely unchallengable. Superman is an icon, sent from his father to make the world a better place. Bruce Wayne is a man on a never ending mission that requires training and the ability to defy being mortal... so he HAS to train his replacement (be it as Batman, Nightwing, or whatever). I don't get what the big deal is. Wayne isn't flawless... he's a man. He's an amazing character who is totally ruined when fans refuse to let him budge.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I wouldn't care if they displayed Dick as becoming a better fighter, he's probably a better athlete. I've never liked how some comics completely inflate Batman's powers. It's simply not possible for one man to be the best martial artist in the world, as well as the best detective, and incredibly intelligent in most sciences. The reason I like Batman is because he is human. He should be eventually passed by one of his proteges, even if it's the simple fact that he's aging.

 

[Mr. Socko]

No.

Not much more needs to be said. This man speaks the truth.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Not much more needs to be said. This man speaks the truth.

Batman is NOT perfect. Batman was not written as the perfect being. He can be shot, stabbed, outsmarted, outwitted, tricked, lied to, manipulated, mugged, and out done. He is STILL an awesome character despite all that because of the themes he represents. My complaint is that because of his having all the right ingredients to be a fan fave (dark, mysterious, quiet, moody, bad ass) fans have completely pushed him into a role that he was not meant for and stripped him of his mortality and humanity (you know, the parts that made him awesome to begin with).

 

[Joker]

in real life, yes, everything in the first post about youth taking the place of age, etc etc is true...but this is comics...Batman was created in the 30's and has aged a maximum of 13 years since then, and then they froze him at being 35...so no, Nightwing will never surpass Batman

 

[Nepenthes]

I want a story where Batman [goes nuts, is mind controlled, set-up or just becomes an ********] and then Nightwing has to take him down.

Not sure whether Nightwing should 'surpass' Bruce permanently but there should at least be occasions or stories where Nightwing proves he is better.

It would be interesting to write Batmans reactions.

 

[SpideyInATree]

As everyone has already pointed out. In a realistic world where Batman existed...yeah, Dick Grayson would eventually take up the mantle or have surpassed Batman.

But in the comic book where Bruce Wayne DEFINES Batman and that's what people know...well, I don't see it happening for a while.

But there are storylines in the Batman comics that deal with this subject matter. Prodigal being one of them. I'm a big fan of both characters and I'm the type of Nightwing fan that would rather see Dick Grayson go into his own groove instead of worrying about whether Batman approves or he can beat Batman.

 

[Texas Zombie]

Infinite Crisis pretty much reminded everybody that he is.

The point isn't will Dick become Batman or Tim or anybody else. It's will they ever let the almight Teacher finally be surpassed by the student? Would they flat out admit that without super enhancements Terry McGuiness would kick Bruce Wayne's butt one on one? Would they quit thinking up lame things like "Dick is a much better leader", "Dick is much faster than Bruce", "Dick is much more agile" and just finally say "Dick might be able to take him"? Seeing Bruce surpassed by his student is NOT a bad or insulting thing to Bruce Wayne... it's the best thing a father can experience in a way.

Yeah but batman is alot smarter,tougher, and a better martial artist.

 

[Infinity9999x]

As everyone has already pointed out. In a realistic world where Batman existed...yeah, Dick Grayson would eventually take up the mantle or have surpassed Batman.

But in the comic book where Bruce Wayne DEFINES Batman and that's what people know...well, I don't see it happening for a while.

But there are storylines in the Batman comics that deal with this subject matter. Prodigal being one of them. I'm a big fan of both characters and I'm the type of Nightwing fan that would rather see Dick Grayson go into his own groove instead of worrying about whether Batman approves or he can beat Batman.

This is a good point. Now, I wouldn't mind seeing Dick besting Bruce in a physical confrontation or something of that sort, but I never want to see the character of Bruce Wayne abandoned. Look at Spider-man, trying to replace the characters really don't work, not with heros this popular anyways. You can do it with the flash, but the big three (Spidey, Supes, Bats) They're going to stay Clark Kent, Peter Parker, and Bruce Wayne as long as the characters exist.

Now, like I said above, would I mind Nightwing showing that he's a better fighter? No, I wouldn't mind it. Batman can't be the best at everything. And he shouldn't be.

 

[CConn]

Infinite Crisis pretty much reminded everybody that he is.

The point isn't will Dick become Batman or Tim or anybody else. It's will they ever let the almight Teacher finally be surpassed by the student? Would they flat out admit that without super enhancements Terry McGuiness would kick Bruce Wayne's butt one on one? Would they quit thinking up lame things like "Dick is a much better leader", "Dick is much faster than Bruce", "Dick is much more agile" and just finally say "Dick might be able to take him"? Seeing Bruce surpassed by his student is NOT a bad or insulting thing to Bruce Wayne... it's the best thing a father can experience in a way.

No.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

No.

You think I didn't knwo when I posted this that somebody (or maybe more than one person) was simply going to write "No." ? Come on, atleast provide some sort of intelligent back up, it's a discussion, not an attack on Batman. Even the people who believe Bruce Wayne should always be Batman are providing an explanation. There's no point in trying to shut me down with a simple "No" in hopes that others will jump on the bandwagon. I promise Batman will be alive and well when this thread is long gone.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

What people don't seem to get is I'm not talking about Nightwing BECOMING Batman necessarily. I'm simply talking about letting him surpass Batman on a physical level... and it seems by the look at this thread that maybe not a whole lot of people have a problem with that. In some versions, Grayson was the detective or problem solver, cracking the riddles and codes before Batman... but I know people would get upset if it were permanently established that he were a better detective. However, Grayson has proven he's a better leader, he's better able to maintain decent communication with the other superheroes, and that he is more than able to hold his own alone... so it just seems natural that toward the end of Bruce Wayne's run at the top, he comes to terms with the fact that he's not the number one guy anymore. Again, it does NOT HURT BATMAN... or Bruce Wayne. The characters remain forever awesome because they are well written. I'm not entirely sure I'd like to see anybody wear the Batman mantle other than Bruce... but in order to move on, at some point it has to happen (storywise, not in the comics since obviously they stopped aging).

On a side note, I always thought Bruce Wayne should be 39 or 40. Young enough to kick ass. Old enough to have enough yeasr behind him to be wise.

 

[Travis K]

Bightwing is lame

 

[lixdexia]

nope, nightwing will never be an equall fighter to batman because of who he is.nightwing is a more well balanced person, he has other aspects of his life to focus on, being batman is all bruce has. dick wakes up in the morning and thinks about his job or some chick or other average things, bruce eats sleeps and breathes batman which is why he'll always be a better fighter.