Will fans ever allow Nightwing to surpass Batman?

[larryfilmmaker]

nope, nightwing will never be an equall fighter to batman because of who he is.nightwing is a more well balanced person, he has other aspects of his life to focus on, being batman is all bruce has. dick wakes up in the morning and thinks about his job or some chick or other average things, bruce eats sleeps and breathes batman which is why he'll always be a better fighter.

That's actually an awesome point of view... but being obsessed doesn't make you better. Also, I thought Bruce Wayne DOES have friends, sex partners, all that? I mean... I've read comics where he was babysitting for a friend. He's not a perfect robot... he's gotta maintain relationships and take a dump once in a while too.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

It would be interesting to write Batmans reactions.

Hell yeah

 

[Nepenthes]

nope, nightwing will never be an equall fighter to batman because of who he is.nightwing is a more well balanced person, he has other aspects of his life to focus on, being batman is all bruce has. dick wakes up in the morning and thinks about his job or some chick or other average things, bruce eats sleeps and breathes batman which is why he'll always be a better fighter.

Yeah that's a great way to consider it. Very true.

But it's also why it'd be such a bittersweet moment if it ever happened.

Remember Batman always said that Dick had more natural talent than him. Batman's only edge is his experiance (which is what old people call 'age').

 

[Rockbottom]

Well of course Dick could turn into a better fighter and still lose to Bruce just because Bruce is so clever in a fight, has more experience than Dick and obviously there is going to be some tricks he wont teach anyone because Bruce doesnt want anyone to be better than him, he wants to be the best because he only trusts him self and Alfred 100%.

Atleast thats my take on it.

 

[lixdexia]

That's actually an awesome point of view... but being obsessed doesn't make you better. Also, I thought Bruce Wayne DOES have friends, sex partners, all that? I mean... I've read comics where he was babysitting for a friend. He's not a perfect robot... he's gotta maintain relationships and take a dump once in a while too.

no, but being obsessed makes you work harder and pratice longer. and any social life bruce has is just cover for batman and with rare exceptions, he gets no pleasure from it.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

are you guys making up your own version of Batman? "He doesn't want any body to be better so he wouldn't teach Dick everything"? "He gest no pleasure from any sort of social life with rare exceptions"? It's not ****ing Dracula people. Batman has way way more depth than people who want him to be a ruthless machine give him credit for.

 

[lixdexia]

yes, but then so are you. everyone adapts the character somewhat to their own tastes. now, had you declared a specific version of batman (i.e. adam west, frank miller's, grant morrison's, etc) you'd get different answers, but you didn't specify which batman.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

I tend to agree with Alex Ross's versions of characters. When he explains the parts he thinks are truly important of each one, it usually sounds just right to me. Whether it's Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, or anybody else... he always seems to know what's important and what's unnecessary crap. We all have our own versions in our minds, but I think his stay true to what each individual character is and should be.

Another thing I wanted to mention in regards to Grayson surpassing Wayne is this: I'm sick of the ever-growing Bat Family. With Grayson, there is an awesome uncomfortable father/protege adopted son storyline... it throws a weird new twist into Batman's plan to fight crime alone. Of course, the Jason story is equally important to who Batman is. I DO like Tim Drake, but Robin 3? Batgirl/Oracle? Azrael? Spoiler? Catwoman sort of? It's too much. I think in my own Batman stories Grayson would do great, becoming Nightwing and going off on his own... an estranged relationship between him and Bruce would last a while. Jason would become a new Robin, of course dying eventually... and I would stop there. No more characters... and trust me, I know Tim Drake is great stuff... but it's like so powerful if Batman realizes that he's going too far by having yet another sidekick. Somebody could argue that Grayson could die in Jason's stead... but I think you need that worthy heir, even if he's not technically going to replace Batman. You need that one thing that Batman can always secretly think to himself "that's the one good thing I leave behind"... and to me, like the son should become better than the father, Grayson should have strengths that Bruce doesn't have as a person and even a hero.

What I'm saying is that there are awesome lessons to learn for Bruce Wayne. Being a father, dealing with Jason's death, etc... but I think Batman starts to become watered down when everybody in town is allowed to throw on a mask and ride in the batmobile with him. However, I do NOT think he's watered down if he only lets one individual do so while training under him. I think that's perfectly in character for a long term thinker like Batman and an amazing dynamic story-wise.

 

[Fried Gold]

Another thing I wanted to mention in regards to Grayson surpassing Wayne is this: I'm sick of the ever-growing Bat Family.

Yeah, I agree, it's totally stupid. To me, Batman is at his best when he's this dude with some homemade gadgets and outfit, roaming the streets of Gotham and catching crooks.

 

[Nepenthes]

Drake is okay, just. It's a fine line but he's been handled pretty well. But apart from Grayson and Catwoman the rest off the 'bat-family' can go to hell

 

[Rockbottom]

Ive never liked the Idea of Robin to be honest, ive always hated the idea of Batgirl. Ive always thought that Batman on his own was for the best, comic and live action.

 

[Canadian Rider]

Bruce has defeated Dick many times. Dick as Nightwing is an interesting character but he lacks the one thing Bruce will always have.

An absolute will to win. At all costs.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Bruce has defeated Dick many times. Dick as Nightwing is an interesting character but he lacks the one thing Bruce will always have.

An absolute will to win. At all costs.

that's because if he DID win most Batman fans would flip out. It's not a "will" to win or lose, it's a popularity contest. We can't talk about how inferior characters are to Batman when simply put, if they outdid him the fans would be furious.

 

[lixdexia]

i'm going to argue it is the will of the character that puts him at the top. of course popularity does have something to do with it, but the way i've always seen him portrayed the doesn't give up. ever. i'm mean here's a guy who after having to bury his sidekick just works harder, while a guy like superman or green lantern would shut down and sulk, batman goes at it more intensly.and as strong a character as dick is, i just don't believe he has the drive of bruce.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Bruce has defeated Dick many times. Dick as Nightwing is an interesting character but he lacks the one thing Bruce will always have.

An absolute will to win. At all costs.

I wouldn't say absolute win. He doesn't kill, and he won't kill. And with many of his villians, the only way to "win" against them, or completley beat them, would be to kill them. But Batman will never kill.

Someone like Wolverine I would say almost has a will to win at any cost, because he will kill, though he pays a heavy price. He hates himself for what he does, or at least when Wolverine was written good he did. Now they pretty much write him as an unstoppable killing machine, which I think is pretty much ******ed. I hate it when they overrate characters.

 

[Katsuro]

I have a question, are we speaking relative to their ages or not?

What I mean is, are you asking if at any point Dick in his current age will surpass Bruce, at whatever age he is at that time? Or are you suggesting that Dick at some point become better than Bruce was at the same age? It's the same with what you said earlier about Terry McGinnis being able to beat Bruce. Could McGinnis beat 80-year old Bruce in a fight? Easily. There's a reason Bruce is no longer Batman. But could Terry McGinnis beat Batman in his prime? Oh god no, it'd be over before Terry could blink.

I would have no problem with Dick Grayson eventually being able to beat Bruce Wayne at that point in time. It's inevitable, really. Bruce is getting older, Nightwing's growing more experienced, it has to happen eventually. Whether or not Nightwing should ever grow to be better than Bruce ever was is a whole other story (although even that would be acceptable eventually).

Although really, I dont think it's fair to compare the two. They both have their strenghts and weaknesses, and while Nightwing may one day become a better fighter than Bruce, he will NEVER be a better detective (although Tim might).

 

[trustyside-kick]

If they finally decided to make all the DCU characters age as their proteges seem to age...then I wouldn't mind seeing this happen slowly over time. I'm not saying for Bats to hand over the mantle...but I wouldn't mind a Bats/Nwing story where Dick came on top somehow and Bruce acknowledged it and stuff like that (admitting that he is indeed getting old for the business or something).

So...gradually...sure...overnight...hell no...take the Bat mantle...no way...

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Whether or not Nightwing should ever grow to be better than Bruce ever was is a whole other story (although even that would be acceptable eventually).

This was more or less what I was asking whether or not the fans would grow to accept. Will Dick or Tim ever be allowed to be more than the "guy who MIGHT be better than Batman someday" at each of their strengths and finally be the guy who IS better than Batman at each of their strengths.

 

[Buttman]

I don't think Batman would teach Nightwing EVERYTHING. I think he's enough of a control freak to purposefully withold some teachings, just SO he could never beat him. It's why Batman is awesome.

 

[Rockbottom]

Well when it comes to crime fighting i doubt they can because the enemys are afraid of Batman not really Robin or Nightwing, which is a big part of Batmans game, so if one of them took over Batmans suit and his legend, then maybe but if they were to go out as just Robin or Nightwing, i doubt it.

 

[Qoèlet]

I just don't think it's particularly important. In a logical sense, sure, Bruce is going to get old and he won't be able to do what he does anymore. But he's never going to get too old because it's a comic book. In principle, that is, while Batman's still stuck at 38 or so forever, the son actually doesn't need to surpass father, nor student teacher: that's your demand. Dick might just live in Batman's shadow his whole life: that's every bit as interesting as having the mentor be shown up, and it reflects reality because Nightwing is never going to be anything but the kid who used to be Batman's sidekick. Just because Dick had Bruce to teach him, that doesn't mean he learned it better, or even as well. Bruce might not be as good a teacher as his own teachers were, or Dick just might not be the fighter that he is.

But at the end of the day, it doesn't even matter because throwing punches isn't half of what makes Batman. Would I mind if Nightwing one upped Batman someday? Not even a little. However, Batman's origin has always pretty much explicitly pointed out that he trained himself to perfection, so there's no particular need for anyone to outdo him.

 

[Texas Zombie]

nope, nightwing will never be an equall fighter to batman because of who he is.nightwing is a more well balanced person, he has other aspects of his life to focus on, being batman is all bruce has. dick wakes up in the morning and thinks about his job or some chick or other average things, bruce eats sleeps and breathes batman which is why he'll always be a better fighter.

well said

 

[cryptic name]

bruce will always be smarter than dick. that gives him the continuing edge.

 

[Honey Vibe]

The student becomes the master and youth replaces age. That's just life and the way of things... so will it ever be acceptable to establish that maybe Nightwing is atleast a better fighter than Batman? I mean... if Batman is really the best ever at everything, then didn't Nightwing have the single best instructor in the entire world and pass with flying colors? If Batman is so obsessed with his war, wouldn't he have made sure that he'd passed on everything he possibly could to Grayson to ensure that the war goes on after Bruce is old or dead? No, Tim doesn't figure in. Neither does Jason, or Azrael, or whatever. I'm talking the originals. Batman and Robin. Father and son. Why is this like one of the only characters who isn't allowed to be surpassed by his protege? I mean... doesn't it make the character and story that much cooler if things are allowed to progress naturally? I know people are going to start spouting off Batman's ridiculously unmatched abilities and superhuman everything, but storywise, why won't fans let this happen? I'm not saying to do it forever, or maybe not even in continuity, but how long can a character be a protege? Especially one as unique and (growingly) popular as Grayson/Nightwing/Robin?

Great thread; I'll say that much.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

I don't think Batman would teach Nightwing EVERYTHING. I think he's enough of a control freak to purposefully withold some teachings, just SO he could never beat him. It's why Batman is awesome.

I'm inclined to believe this way.

I forget who, it might have been Paul Dini, but someone once explained their idea of Batman's motivations for training Dick-

He recognized that Dick could be a great ally, but he also recognized that Dick could one day grow into a potential threat, if his rage and desire were not properly channeled.

We've seen it before, many villains have grown out of vengeance, with stories similar to Bruce. Taking Dick as a protege` could be seen partly as a preventative measure.

Now, to see it this way means to look at Bruce as less than perfect, which for some is difficult. We don't like to think that he would ever purposely sabotage his own protege`. But I don't think that's what this would be, per se. He just takes whatever measures necessary to ensure the survival of "the mission."