Will fans ever allow Nightwing to surpass Batman?

This thread is pointless because of its suppositions. You guys are writing under the assumption that Nightwing can learn what Batman knows. I think that's impossible. Bruce is the one in a billion human who can train his body to physical perfection, and a mind to match. Just because Batman can teach people something doesn't mean they have the capability to learn it. Bruce has devoted his entire life to what he is, so how in the world could Nightwing beat him? I think they should have killed off Nightwing a long time ago.
 
Firstly, fantastic thread.

If Bruce is the best martial artist in the world, wouldn’t he be some long-haired recluse with a beard who lived in a temple and had upcoming superheroes periodically visit him for training on how to advance from being good to great like in all those martial-arts mentor movies? In that case, he would still be superior to someone like Dick Grayson because Bruce would still be perfecting himself. And one on one, he’d be nearly impossible to defeat. But then of course you could say Batman gets punched or injured all the time in the comics, which of course is done for dramatic effect or storyline purposes and begins the whole popularity argument again.

Nobody would or should accept Dick Grayson as the guy walking around in the Batsuit. Bruce Wayne is Batman, always has been, always will be.

He’s been aged 20-40-ish in sixty years of comics, and will always remain that way.

I remember reading that Bruce Lee, who many of the world-class martial artists he trained admitted they would be no match for him, did not enter any professional tournaments because they weren’t real fights – there were rules, countdowns, no biting, white towels, points. Bruce (Lee) said something to the effect that in a real fight, the easiest way to take a man down would be to kick him in the balls. I think Bruce Wayne operates similarly.

Ultimately I had a geek moment when I read the first reference to Batman in Kingdom Come, which is one of thefutureversions I’d consider most ‘realistic’:

‘Batman … Batman has control of his city.’

(…it would be a lot more dramatic if someone would upload the picture here…)
 
Ive always thought that Dick would make a good replacement for Bruce, thats why I like Prodigal so much. However, Bats and Nightwing are very different. Bats is bigger, stronger, and smarter. While Dick is faster, younger, and probably more agile and athletic than Bats ever was. However, Bruce is probably a much better fighter due to the fact that he fights using his mind(such as pressure points and other anatomical knowledge) and he vastly more determined. But I always liked that Dick evolved int his own man, it would be interesting to see what Tim evolves into. Also, I'm one of those people who think that Terry McGuiness was a very good invention and logical step because I don't one of Batman's partners could truly replace Bruce. It would take someone specifically trained for the leadership role instead on a sidekick position.
 
Ive always thought that Dick would make a good replacement for Bruce, thats why I like Prodigal so much. However, Bats and Nightwing are very different. Bats is bigger, stronger, and smarter. While Dick is faster, younger, and probably more agile and athletic than Bats ever was. However, Bruce is probably a much better fighter due to the fact that he fights using his mind(such as pressure points and other anatomical knowledge) and he vastly more determined. But I always liked that Dick evolved int his own man, it would be interesting to see what Tim evolves into. Also, I'm one of those people who think that Terry McGuiness was a very good invention and logical step because I don't one of Batman's partners could truly replace Bruce. It would take someone specifically trained for the leadership role instead on a sidekick position.
I agree with you here.
 
Also, I'm one of those people who think that Terry McGuiness was a very good invention and logical step because I don't one of Batman's partners could truly replace Bruce. It would take someone specifically trained for the leadership role instead on a sidekick position.
Only problem i have with Terry is that he didnt have the motivation of Batman, also I like the fact Batman trained for his power rather than it be just built in the Suit, but i am a fan of Batman Beyond.
 
NW's the only one who hasnt surpassed his mentor?

I'd like to know when Roy surpassed ollie in archery

or when donna surpassed diana

or when garth surpassed arthur...and dont say sorcery, cause AQ never did that

the reason why nightwing dosent surpass batman is simple: Batman is the icon, nightwing is not. and the only way dick is an icon is as robin....the kid sidekick.
 
Better question is this: why do people have this desire to knock down 60 year old characters for characters who've had 60 years to prove themselves and never have?

Why should batman, a popular character whos withstood time for nearly 70 years, change suddenly just cause a fanboy thinks things are stale?

Are fanboys really that selfish as to think their great, radical idea, is worth shaking up an institution?
 
dude....

it's not 'selfish'. it's just an interesting idea.

do you remember when Batman had his BACK BROKEN? kinda like that



besides it's not even that radical it's been a question ever since Dick Grayson got out on his own
 
I guess it's not that radical an idea for people since Dick became Nightwing, but the fact of the matter remains that it's just plain stupid to even consider.
 
what *fact* of the matter are you talking about?

here's a fact: many writers have already put the words Batmans his mouth. He himself has said many times that Dick has far more ability than he ever did at his age.
 
what *fact* of the matter are you talking about?

here's a fact: many writers have already put the words Batmans his mouth. He himself has said many times that Dick has far more ability than he ever did at his age.

FACT: That dosent mean dick has far more ability than him PERIOD.

of course ***** gonna have more ability. Bruce hasnt been a crimefighter since 8.
 
dude....

it's not 'selfish'. it's just an interesting idea.

do you remember when Batman had his BACK BROKEN? kinda like that



besides it's not even that radical it's been a question ever since Dick Grayson got out on his own



Yeah...and do you remember when bruce got up and walked again, his back suddenly healed, a year later?

Yes...it is selfish. It's really all about what YOU want to see, not everyone else. It seems to me that the majority of the people in this thread dont agree with the OT's idea, especially seeing as how Bruce is still in the prime of his career.
 
FACT: That dosent mean dick has far more ability than him PERIOD.

especially seeing as how Bruce is still in the prime of his career.

The question is will Dick EVER surpass Bruce, not now 'in the prime of his career'. Common sense says that one day he must. The fact that Dick is naturally better than Bruce (for his age) means that that day would come sooner. I.e that Batman won't necessarily be walking with a cane before it happens.

It's too bad that comic-book sense says 'Batman is 35 forever' and fandamentalist sense says 'batman is perfect and can never be fu*ked with'. Sorry but that just makes for boring comics imo.

I'm less concerned with tarnishing the legend than reading the same old stories over and over. If an interesting idea is somehow messing with the status quo then I don't mind as long as it's well-executed and the changes aren't too unreasonable. And this is hardly unreasonable because it's been a question and a possibility for a long time.

Yeah...and do you remember when bruce got up and walked again, his back suddenly healed, a year later?

Yeah so what? The point is that Batman CAN be broken and defeated - of course he's gonna come back...it's not like DC can make changes that stick. Besides no fan is ever gonna tell you that Nightwing should be permanently 'better than Batman' in mainline continuity. As you said, he's the icon.

On the broken back - I'm guessing that if DC editors went and asked for readers permission before allowing it to happen...fans would have accused them of being selfish and creating sensational 'events' just to boost their sales. Yep. So what.
 
I also don't think Dick should be considered better than Bats, but It's natuarl to assume that a mortal character would either die or be replaced in a "real" time story. However I just think that Nightwing has become his own character and Instead of not seing Dick as Batman, I just don't see Dick not being Nightwing. To me Nightwing was one of the great creations of the '80's, it showed that he wasn't the lame sidekick people assumed Robin was, it great example of evolution of a character, that a hero could grow and become something else, something greater. It also proved that Batman was a great teacher because he took this poor kid whi lost his parents and not only made him a sidekick, but gave him the skills to become a hero that could stand on his own. This why so many people clammor for Nightwing to become a Justice league member.
 
Yes...it is selfish. It's really all about what YOU want to see, not everyone else. It seems to me that the majority of the people in this thread dont agree with the OT's idea, especially seeing as how Bruce is still in the prime of his career.

Bruce is ALWAYS in the prime of his career. It's not selfish just because most people don't want it to happen. That's insane. Storytelling is not and should not be a popularity contest. It should be about what best serves the story. Everybody in this thread made it clear that Nightwing probably shouldn't surpass Batman in the regular continuity but that it's a good idea for a one time story or an "esleworlds".

Of course Batman is the icon, but it isn't because he "passed tests", that's ******ed. He was written by hundreds of writers, he's not real and he never "earned" anything. Saying that Batman has EARNED something over the last 60 years is a perfect example of how damn scary the Batman threads are becoming.

Anybody storming into this topic with any kind of aggression whatsoever needs to relax. It's a damn comic book character and it's people offering fresh and exciting ideas. Having Bruce explore what every man must at one point in having his "son" replace him is not a cheap trick or "stirring the pot". It's character development, the one thing everybody fears when it comes to the "icons".

"Superman can't have a kid." "Batman can't be passed by the guy he's TRAINING as his protoge." By being such HARDCORE fans, you are crippling the potential of your favorite icons. They aren't going anywhere. They won't be erased from history because they tried something new in a few issues. It's just a damn comic book. It's not the grail and you aren't a knight in charge of protecting it. It's art, which means it's subjective... and that means it's open to interpretation. Relax and enjoy your favorite characters but don't take them so seriously. It's not healthy.
 
many things to agree with in that post ^. if you're not gonna explore characters or play with situations then there's no point writing them. i'm all for nostalgia and reverence but damn, fandamentalists need to find a new hobby.
 
Id rather see Nightwing develop his own legacy rather than surpassing Batman. Otherwise he'll only be seen in terms of the Bat, not his own abilities.
 
ROGUE EL had this posted on his myspace... one of his "blogs". I thought it really fit the topic at hand.


The undeniable truth is that comics are mainly bought by proper fans, and rarely by the casual consumer (in western society - in Asia, comics are as popular as newspapers and read by all ages). Although many children are buying the revamped versions of classic heroes, lead by Ultimate Spider-Man, it's still the hardcore fans who buy most of the comics.

Fans can be very demanding, and confrontational. And when they group together, especially on the intenet, watch out. They become like a pack of sharks, and then vultures. They are like this because they care about the characters so much, and they don't want them changed.

This is the problem. It's not the character that is most important, it's the story. Comicbook creators don't have the luxury of real character development. The readers won't allow it. They want their heroes and villains to remain exactly how they remember them. And so the writers and artists are unable to use their full creative impulses, to create full, evolving characterisations and storylines, because the readership wants the characters to remain static, in limbo.

In the 1990's, some of the major comicbook icons were involved in major storylines. The stories all went like this; the hero suffers a major trauma, either physically or mentally, and is replaced by a new version(s) of the hero.

In the case of Batman, he was defeated by the brual supervillain Bane. The unstable vigilante Jean-Paul Valley became the new Batman, quickly went off the rails, and ended up as a high-tech monster. The real Batman eventually returned and defeated him. This is the Knightfall saga.

In The Death and Return of Superman epic, the Man of Steel is defeated by the savage Doomsday. Superman was replaced by four psuedo-Supermen, none of whom turned out to be the real McCoy. The genuine article returned, and saved the earth from being turned into a giant spaceship by an intergalatic warlord.

These two storylines created much controversy, but there is no doubt the creators behind them intended for the real versions of the characters to ultimately return. At heart both merely replicate the superhero story blueprint on an epic scale; will the hero appear in time to save the day?

However, in the infamous Spider-Man Clone Saga, the creators had other ideas. We find out that, since the mid-70's, we haven't been reading the real Spider-Man's adventures. At that point he was replaced by a clone. So the Spider-Man from the classic Stan Lee/Steve Ditko/John Romita Sr stories of the 60s is not the same one that's in the Todd MacFarlane/JM DeMatteis/John Romita Jr stories I grew up reading in the 80s.

It was a shocking and thrilling idea. There was so much potential for great science fiction and human drama. Marvel's attempt to freshen the Spider-Man comics had electrified them.

But it did not go down well. Perhaps the Clone saga was badly written. Perhaps the new Spider-Man was too different from the original. But the main reason this story was savagely attacked by fans; because it changed the character of Spider-Man.

And so the artists and writers had to go back, change the story, and assure us that the whole thing was just a trick by the Green Goblin.

The same with the DC superhero Green Lantern, aka Hal Jordan. After his home city was destroyed, his anger was such that he killed all the other Green Lanterns (an intergalatic police force) and stole their energy (powered by 'magic' rings). One last ring was given to teenager Kyle Rayner on earth, and he was given the monumental task of being the last Green Lantern. Everything was turned on it's head; the balance of power shifted between good and evil, the hero of the saga became the villain, a boy had to become a hero. The only hero. Very similar to Star Wars, in fact.

Kyle Rayner actually lasted a decade in print, despite the onslaught of fans who wanted Hal Jordan back. But Hal had developed as far as he could as a hero - there was no where for the character to go. Except to the dark side. Fans said Hal would never become evil. But the fans didn't write the comics, and, whilst keeping the characters believable in their actions, they should be explored. They should go through the ringer, that is the essence of heroic drama and myth.

With Kyle Rayner, there was a new hero, a new version of the Green Lantern who had to endure a trial of fire and lean to be a hero. There was so much potential in this new, fresh version as he contrasted with the older version of the character. How would he approach things? What would he do differently? More drama was added due to the fact that he was the last one of his kind.

An epic change of course for the Green Lantern series. And let's not forget, there have always been many different Green Lanterns, as it is a force of superheroes protecting the universe. Hal Jordan wasn't even the first. So it was only right for Kyle Rayner to become the new focus of the series.

Not according to the fans. They wanted old Hal back as a good guy. And so, the writers altered, contrived their story to make the readers happy again. Hal was possesed by some kind of evil force. He then saved the universe, became the wondering spirit of vengeance the Spectre, and recently has become the main Green Lantern again. Kyle Rayner's whole coming of age hero arc was abrubtly cut short to suit the readers.

An epic tale that would change Spider-Man forever and alter our view of the entire history of the character....was spoiled. A dramatic saga that gave us a new Green Lantern and turned the whole universe on it's head.....was ruined.

That such exciting ideas was killed by the fans is sad indeed. That they wouldn't allow real character development prevents them from reading really great stories. Imagine, if you will, Achilles being revived because the readers didn't like him dying. Oh, the arrow didn't kill him, it only wounded him (the same thing happened to Sherlock Holmes, although his death was simply a deliberate and failed attempt by Conan Doyle to dispose of him) . Frodo didn't really become corrupted by the ring, he just pretended to be. Incredible stories can only happen when incredible things happen to the characters. Story equals character. The story comes from the character development. These heroes must be allowed to change, to alter, to die, be reborn and evolve. That is where the great tales come from. That is why Casino Royale has far and away the best story of any James Bond film.

And if you want to read truly great fiction, then you have to accept, you have to revel, true character development.
 
if you want great fiction where everything hinges on some shocking change, read a manga. or an indie. or some other non serialized format comic.
 
It's not about shock value or always turning everything on it's head. It's about growth and storytelling.
 
I don't think Batman would teach Nightwing EVERYTHING. I think he's enough of a control freak to purposefully withold some teachings, just SO he could never beat him. It's why Batman is awesome. :up:
I'm gonna go ahead and quote myself here, as I still agree with it and it's been mostly overlooked.
 
Well, would fans ever alow Tim Drake to takeover as batman?
That is, in essence, the same question. However, I chose Nightwing because his was the original father/son, protege storyline and the mainstream audience doesn't even know there's more than one Robin. Please GOD don't let this become a "well Afred said Tim is smarter than Dick" or any of that Robin vs. Robin crap. That's not what the thread is about. It's about how this is the only true student/master storyline that fans won't let go to the next stage.

BUTTMAN, I don't think anybody overlooked what you wrote. Why would Batman, having proven himself an honorable, selfless individual with an obsession with a war on crime, train his protege to be weaker than himself? He's not obsessed with being the best fighter so that he can be a bad ass, he's obsessed with being the best so that he can best serve in his "war". He'd be an idiot to avoid fully training his students and it doesn't really fit his personality or his obsession with a never ending war on crime, on that he has said a billion times must go on AFTER HE'S GONE. Generations are meant to get better, not weaker. For a guy who's supposed to be the perfect human being, he'd be making a huge mistake only semi-training a bunch of mortals to save the world after he's gone. No, I think he'd ensure that his students knew more and trained harder than he ever did so that they were WORTHY of carrying on the war.
 
I don't one of Batman's partners could truly replace Bruce. It would take someone specifically trained for the leadership role instead on a sidekick position.

Dick Grayson's leadership skills blow Bruce Wayne's out of the water. Dick led the Titans, the Outsiders, and is the leader of the backup JLA. Besides from Supes himself, which of the heroes is a bigger or more established genuine LEADER in the DCU than Nightwing/Robin 1? I don't think Batman should be perfect at everything, obviously he's not. Socially, leadership wise, maybe even as an inspiration to other heroes and how they should act, he doesn't have those things down very well and that's been stated many times. Still, Batman is awesome and while I think it'd be interesting to see him forced to pass the mantle, that doesn't mean I think Grayson should be able to beat him at everything. These aren't flawless Gods. They are human beings, with strengths and weaknesses the other doesn't have.

The irony of everybody complaining about Superman being too perfect and Batman being cooler because he has to actually work to beat his opponent is sort of ******ed when Batman himself is hailed as perfect or, as stated in this topic earlier, 1 in a BILLION skill-wise.
 
What if Bruce is in a wheelchair and Tim's like 'I'm Batman' but Dick says 'no way punk'? What would happen then? Who would concede? Who has more of a right?

Sure Dick wants to be his own dude and that's why he's Nightwing and not Robin...but if Batman's gone and there's a void there to fill, who knows he might feel duty bound to come back under his teachers guise.
 

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