Will fans ever allow Nightwing to surpass Batman?

[Nepenthes]

what about it is incoherent?

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

Morrisons batman is hated by a very vocal minority as well as people who don't actually read the books or very much batman in particular. the kind of people who see "Batman dead" or Batman in purple and yellow costumes and then cry about their 'favorite childhood character' being perverted by the hack who wrote Arkham Asylum and that mess Final Crisis. People like yourself who are actually capable of "getting it", but still insist on Resistance, are actually kind of rare in my observation. You have to be kind of missing a piece of your soul not too like at least a few Grant Morrison books let alone Batman. Most of the hate seems to come from quarters than shouldn't concern men of quality anyway is what I'm saying

Wow, it's like "factual" bias, but on steroids. I don't like Morrison's run barely at all. Is it because Batman runs around in a purple suit or because he's "dead"?
Not at all, bring on Zebra Suit Batman!

No, it's because he totally wasted the Al Ghuls, turning Ra's into a cliche villain as opposed to the really respectful and honourable foe he was, and turned Talia into an abomination, a spoiled rat who I could never see Batman falling in love with. Not to mention her plan in Batman and Son was one of the stupidest I'd seen. Then there's disrespect for the Batfamily, Tim not only is defeated by newly introduced character Damian in a matter of pages, but then suddenly is willing to betray his allies to bring his parents back from the dead using their corpses in Lazarus Pits. Nightwing is captured by the Club of Villains and Batman didn't even try to help him despite knowing the whole game from the beginning, meaning if it weren't for Joker's unexpected betrayal Dick would've bought it. Then the ones that come to save the day, that defeat the fleeing villains. Is it Tim? Is it Dick? No, it's the Club of Heroes, who are apparently better than Robin or Nightwing at this point.

And don't get me started on the new Joker, with no lips who cuts his tongue in HALF. I don't care how much Morrison thinks this will be a scarier Joker, this one just smacked of cliche splatter horror villain, and as such didn't frighten or even creep one bit ('cept for the tongue). And I was actually getting really into RIP with the red and black, I was really looking forward to seeing the symbolism of it and how it explored and deconstructed Bruce's character. But no, it turned out to be simple misdirection, in favour of Batgod.

So no, I didn't like morrison's run. Does this make me what you say the people that dislike Morrison's run are? No, that's profiling nonsense. I can still appreciate the ideas that Morrison gave, and some bits were really cool, but overall I felt that the only deconstruction was not of Batman's character, just a lot of progress that has been made over the years, which is kind of sad to me since Morrison was really trying to glorify the older stories.

 

[CaptainClown]

I can always count on two-face=badass to sum up what I am thinking...then again have no soul because i don't like his run.

 

[maninthechair]

there will always be a mentally degenerate segment of fans who will whine about any given issue at hand no matter what, regardless of quality, cause or good sense. yes it is part of the standard role a comic book fan is to whine, true, but at the end of the day i like to think there's more reasonable fans than not and they'll be the ones who decide what's "allowed". will fans allow Batman & Robin to achieve blockbuster sales figures?, I think yes. they will give their permission to produce multiple prints of the trade


what's the point of training an apprentice if he never takes the top job? Replacing Batman was ALWAYS implicit to the entire concept of Robin imo.

You know that insulting people because they don't like the story is the same thing as insulting Morrison because they don't like his current story line.
I haven't called Morrison a hack or insulted him (as far as I can remember, this has been on going for a long time). I believe the worst thing I said about him was that he's very talented and that I think this story is set up just to get newspaper headlines to get additional readers.
I don't like this current story and I tried reading it. I've given credit to it when I saw something I thought was done well (mostly the art). I don't think it will succeed and that Bruce will eventually come back. You like it, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion but I think its a bit close minded to start insulting people because they express a different opinion than you.

 

[Nepenthes]

Wow, it's like "factual" bias, but on steroids. I don't like Morrison's run barely at all. Is it because Batman runs around in a purple suit or because he's "dead"?
Not at all, bring on Zebra Suit Batman!

No, it's because he totally wasted the Al Ghuls, turning Ra's into a cliche villain as opposed to the really respectful and honourable foe he was, and turned Talia into an abomination, a spoiled rat who I could never see Batman falling in love with. Not to mention her plan in Batman and Son was one of the stupidest I'd seen. Then there's disrespect for the Batfamily, Tim not only is defeated by newly introduced character Damian in a matter of pages, but then suddenly is willing to betray his allies to bring his parents back from the dead using their corpses in Lazarus Pits. Nightwing is captured by the Club of Villains and Batman didn't even try to help him despite knowing the whole game from the beginning, meaning if it weren't for Joker's unexpected betrayal Dick would've bought it. Then the ones that come to save the day, that defeat the fleeing villains. Is it Tim? Is it Dick? No, it's the Club of Heroes, who are apparently better than Robin or Nightwing at this point.

And don't get me started on the new Joker, with no lips who cuts his tongue in HALF. I don't care how much Morrison thinks this will be a scarier Joker, this one just smacked of cliche splatter horror villain, and as such didn't frighten or even creep one bit ('cept for the tongue). And I was actually getting really into RIP with the red and black, I was really looking forward to seeing the symbolism of it and how it explored and deconstructed Bruce's character. But no, it turned out to be simple misdirection, in favour of Batgod.

So no, I didn't like morrison's run. Does this make me what you say the people that dislike Morrison's run are? No, that's profiling nonsense. I can still appreciate the ideas that Morrison gave, and some bits were really cool, but overall I felt that the only deconstruction was not of Batman's character, just a lot of progress that has been made over the years, which is kind of sad to me since Morrison was really trying to glorify the older stories.

The Ra's Al Ghul arc is a turd, yes, but even Alan Moore and the most marvelous Frank Miller have written turd issues, so what? The rest of the Morrison run can be judged out side of that 'event' arc which was editorialy mandated and obviously written in his his sleep after eating too much tofu. My favorite comic writer of all, who is Peter Milligan, also contributed a fairly lackluster issue to that arc. This cuts me, but I move on.

Talia's plan in Batman and Son, again, is only a smaller fragment in what is a great overall run full of many, many things to notice and appreciate. Her plan was to attract Bruce's attention. I dunno, that seems to be the MO for alot of villains in other stories, why must she be held to a different standard? She is a selfish cut-throat viper, that's already been established.

Tim was holding his punches. He was fighting the ten year old son of his mentor.

Batman did actually have a plan to save Dick, you must have missed this, it's what the Bat-Radia was all about. It overwrites Arkhams security and from there Batman trusts Dick to get out of trouble himself.

and there was alot of deconstruction imo, more than I've seen in any comic apart from DKR. The serpent tongue comes with many different allusions to tempters, usurping the devil ("joker trumps deuce") and so forth. Even the misdirection of black & red has a very strong point within it, Jokers apophenia, Batmans paranoia and even readers habits to analyze things to bits and look for rigid patterns of ordered meaning ("that's Wikipedia").

I'd be interest to know how the run tramples any progress of recent years. And my comments about Morrison haters are in general, of course people don't have to fit that profile, I'm just saying most of them do which I don't think is in any way unreasonable to say.

You know that insulting people because they don't like the story is the same thing as insulting Morrison because they don't like his current story line.
I haven't called Morrison a hack or insulted him (as far as I can remember, this has been on going for a long time). I believe the worst thing I said about him was that he's very talented and that I think this story is set up just to get newspaper headlines to get additional readers.
I don't like this current story and I tried reading it. I've given credit to it when I saw something I thought was done well (mostly the art). I don't think it will succeed and that Bruce will eventually come back. You like it, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion but I think its a bit close minded to start insulting people because they express a different opinion than you.

well I have a real disagreement with alot of people in that i don't think all opinions are created equal, not at all. Apart from that I have no idea what you've said specifically so I can't comment on that, and I didn't intend to.

Bruce was always going to come back. Even Morrison has admitted that it was never meant to be a long term thing, only a fool would think like that in comics. Even in the pre-release hype interviews and such, NO ONE ever actually said Bruce was going to DIE, they actually refuted it! that was just something defficient fans on the internet invented.

The run has already succeeded, it has bought HUGE numbers of readers back to Batman and has shaped the landscape of the entire franchise considerably. To say it was produced only to draw attention and sales is fairly cynical and shallow imo. I'd say the intention was to write a classic batman run that portrays the core themes in a new light while exploring new ones as well as celebrating and unifying past mythology. There have been many other stated intentions of the run such to return to a lighter, more adventurous James Bond type 70's era Batman for example.

I can always count on two-face=badass to sum up what I am thinking...then again have no soul because i don't like his run.

The great thing about souls Clown is that they are redeemable. You are by no means damned for all eternity, salvation is only three trades away.

 

[maninthechair]

well I have a real disagreement with alot of people in that i don't think all opinions are created equal, not at all. Apart from that I have no idea what you've said specifically so I can't comment on that, and I didn't intend to.

Bruce was always going to come back. Even Morrison has admitted that it was never meant to be a long term thing, only a fool would think like that in comics. Even in the pre-release hype interviews and such, NO ONE ever actually said Bruce was going to DIE, they actually refuted it! that was just something defficient fans on the internet invented.

The run has already succeeded, it has bought HUGE numbers of readers back to Batman and has shaped the landscape of the entire franchise considerably. To say it was produced only to draw attention and sales is fairly cynical and shallow imo. I'd say the intention was to write a classic batman run that portrays the core themes in a new light while exploring new ones as well as celebrating and unifying past mythology. There have been many other stated intentions of the run such to return to a lighter, more adventurous James Bond type 70's era Batman for example.
quote]

Ok, first off I never tried cutting parts of of a quote so hopefully it will work. I just wanted to call out the problems you and I seem to disagree with. Before going foward, like you, I have no intention of looking up every post you made. If I took something out of context, by all means clarify and that will be the end of it. I'm not going to do research to argue with someone on a forum. I just want to rationally discuss things and am more than willing to here others opinions.

The first thing is you're statement about not all opinions being equal. Now that could be one of two things. It could be the niave statement of an arrogant jerk or (and what I'm assuming/hoping) it could mean that some people don't look at all the facts and jump to conclusions. Like I said, I'm hoping that's what you meant but please be a little more specific in your logic or it comes across like your just insulting people for no good reason.

Now you bring up the point that Bruce was always going to come back. I think every person on this board knows that but contrary to what was said in interviews even if by Morrison himself, that was not the way it was advertised. BATMAN R.I.P. is advertising the death of Batman. Unless R.I.P. has gone from rest in peace to retired in Paris, there is some strong implying on DCs part that he will in fact die. Regardless of what is said in interviews, that was the advertisement implies.
Also if Bruce was never going to die, what is the point of the storyline? To imply that only Bruce Wayne can be Batman? That was proven during the whole Knightfall story line and even there after where Bruce reclaimed the mantle, and gave it to Dick for a short time. I think that is the cause of a lot of the frustration of a lot of people that don't like this run. It serves no purpose, if they are going to go through this whole thing only to have Bruce come back once again and reclaim the mantle. Although I feel the he is the one and only Batman, if you are going to do a story like this do it for real. Come up with the right way to write out a very loved character for 60+ years and stick to it.
Finally, I don't argue with its success, but I don't think that has anything to do with the particular story. All that mattered were the advertisements of Batman RIP, and people will buy the book. Whether you like the character or not people will buy it. First reason being curiousity, the second is from a collector's perspective. I think Morrison has written great stories in his career, but just because people are purchasing the advertised story of Batman dying doesn't mean it's one of his great works.
You seem to be someone that thinks out your responses and I look foward to reading your reply.

P.S. Apparently it didn't work but oh well... what can you do? lol

 

[Nepenthes]

well I have a real disagreement with alot of people in that i don't think all opinions are created equal, not at all. Apart from that I have no idea what you've said specifically so I can't comment on that, and I didn't intend to.

Bruce was always going to come back. Even Morrison has admitted that it was never meant to be a long term thing, only a fool would think like that in comics. Even in the pre-release hype interviews and such, NO ONE ever actually said Bruce was going to DIE, they actually refuted it! that was just something defficient fans on the internet invented.

The run has already succeeded, it has bought HUGE numbers of readers back to Batman and has shaped the landscape of the entire franchise considerably. To say it was produced only to draw attention and sales is fairly cynical and shallow imo. I'd say the intention was to write a classic batman run that portrays the core themes in a new light while exploring new ones as well as celebrating and unifying past mythology. There have been many other stated intentions of the run such to return to a lighter, more adventurous James Bond type 70's era Batman for example.
quote]

Ok, first off I never tried cutting parts of of a quote so hopefully it will work. I just wanted to call out the problems you and I seem to disagree with. Before going foward, like you, I have no intention of looking up every post you made. If I took something out of context, by all means clarify and that will be the end of it. I'm not going to do research to argue with someone on a forum. I just want to rationally discuss things and am more than willing to here others opinions.

The first thing is you're statement about not all opinions being equal. Now that could be one of two things. It could be the niave statement of an arrogant jerk or (and what I'm assuming/hoping) it could mean that some people don't look at all the facts and jump to conclusions. Like I said, I'm hoping that's what you meant but please be a little more specific in your logic or it comes across like your just insulting people for no good reason.

Now you bring up the point that Bruce was always going to come back. I think every person on this board knows that but contrary to what was said in interviews even if by Morrison himself, that was not the way it was advertised. BATMAN R.I.P. is advertising the death of Batman. Unless R.I.P. has gone from rest in peace to retired in Paris, there is some strong implying on DCs part that he will in fact die. Regardless of what is said in interviews, that was the advertisement implies.
Also if Bruce was never going to die, what is the point of the storyline? To imply that only Bruce Wayne can be Batman? That was proven during the whole Knightfall story line and even there after where Bruce reclaimed the mantle, and gave it to Dick for a short time. I think that is the cause of a lot of the frustration of a lot of people that don't like this run. It serves no purpose, if they are going to go through this whole thing only to have Bruce come back once again and reclaim the mantle. Although I feel the he is the one and only Batman, if you are going to do a story like this do it for real. Come up with the right way to write out a very loved character for 60+ years and stick to it.
Finally, I don't argue with its success, but I don't think that has anything to do with the particular story. All that mattered were the advertisements of Batman RIP, and people will buy the book. Whether you like the character or not people will buy it. First reason being curiousity, the second is from a collector's perspective. I think Morrison has written great stories in his career, but just because people are purchasing the advertised story of Batman dying doesn't mean it's one of his great works.
You seem to be someone that thinks out your responses and I look foward to reading your reply.

P.S. Apparently it didn't work but oh well... what can you do? lol

On opinions, I'll put this way......if someone's read 20 books by the author William Stubbs, and someone else has only read one book by William Stubbs, I'm gonna put more value in the person whose read 20 books when the topic of discussion is the works of William Stubbs. Those opinions cannot equal. Likewise if one person is let's say 25 years old, and the second person is maybe 15 years old, I will not judge their opinions as being of equal value. If one person is predisposed to a narrow literary taste or general field of experience, then that persons opinion is not as relevant as person who is wider read and approaches a subject with a more rounded and considered understanding. If someone jumps up and says something I interpret as shallow, naive or childish, then their opinion loses value in my eyes. This nonsense about everyone having an equal opinion, where nothing is firm or absolute, where everything is open to interpretation or wholly subjective valuing, where anyone can say any damn thing they want and be exempt from rebuke or ridicule, because it is their sacred opinion, is pure utter rubbish. Only on a comic internet message board do you find drivel like that. IMO, of course.

Moving on, you seem to have taken the title of the storyline, RIP, and used that as the sole basis for your claim that DC 'misadvertised' Batmans death for the purpose of driving sales - despite firm and strong indications to the contrary by the writer and the editor. I'm sorry but I'm gonna go with what the creators say and not just jump up and draw hysterical conclusions from A TITLE. If that's how some people want to engage with their comics, fine, that's their problem, I prefer to read the whole damn thing, ideally with an unbiased eye, and decide what it all means after the story is complete. Besides, to hell with it, it's a catchy title, is they're anything so wrong with that? This is a business, with the aim of selling comics books. Shock!

Also consider the fact that Batman did indeed die very real, if symbolic death throughout the course of RIP. The whole run is concerned with themes of death, replacement, rebirth and legacy. He staged a mock death for his own enlightenment; this was a critical plot point. He was then buried alive even. I think this has alot of bearing on the title.

I don't read comics to track milestones in a characters life or 'continuity. "This is the issue where he dies!" or "this is the issue where he hangs up the cape!". I'm not reading for that and I don't build expectations or judgments based from a "fans" idea of what should be fulfilled or what should or should not "rightfully" occur. So maybe we're just coming with different approaches. I read comics to see what a writer has to say about the subject at hand. To read the story where "Batman dies", or anyone dies, has no intrinsic value in itself.

Apart from that the the run has served a huge purpose outside of killing (or replacing) Batman, so I don't really know why any comments about Knightfall having 'done it before' are very relevant. Knightfall itself was an extended rehash of Blind Justice, does that make it unnecessary? I don't think so. Knightfall was a great marketing move that added a new, valuable and enlightening shape to the overall Batman mythos, and alot of people really enjoyed it, it created many longtime fans even. Ditto on RIP, times a hundred.

 

[maninthechair]

On opinions, I'll put this way......if someone's read 20 books by the author William Stubbs, and someone else has only read one book by William Stubbs, I'm gonna put more value in the person whose read 20 books when the topic of discussion is the works of William Stubbs. Those opinions cannot equal. Likewise if one person is let's say 25 years old, and the second person is maybe 15 years old, I will not judge their opinions as being of equal value. If one person is predisposed to a narrow literary taste or general field of experience, then that persons opinion is not as relevant as person who is wider read and approaches a subject with a more rounded and considered understanding. If someone jumps up and says something I interpret as shallow, naive or childish, then their opinion loses value in my eyes. This nonsense about everyone having an equal opinion, where nothing is firm or absolute, where everything is open to interpretation or wholly subjective valuing, where anyone can say any damn thing they want and be exempt from rebuke or ridicule, because it is their sacred opinion, is pure utter rubbish. Only on a comic internet message board do you find drivel like that. IMO, of course.

Moving on, you seem to have taken the title of the storyline, RIP, and used that as the sole basis for your claim that DC 'misadvertised' Batmans death for the purpose of driving sales - despite firm and strong indications to the contrary by the writer and the editor. I'm sorry but I'm gonna go with what the creators say and not just jump up and draw hysterical conclusions from A TITLE. If that's how some people want to engage with their comics, fine, that's their problem, I prefer to read the whole damn thing, ideally with an unbiased eye, and decide what it all means after the story is complete. Besides, to hell with it, it's a catchy title, is they're anything so wrong with that? This is a business, with the aim of selling comics books. Shock!

Also consider the fact that Batman did indeed die very real, if symbolic death throughout the course of RIP. The whole run is concerned with themes of death, replacement, rebirth and legacy. He staged a mock death for his own enlightenment; this was a critical plot point. He was then buried alive even. I think this has alot of bearing on the title.

I don't read comics to track milestones in a characters life or 'continuity. "This is the issue where he dies!" or "this is the issue where he hangs up the cape!". I'm not reading for that and I don't build expectations or judgments based from a "fans" idea of what should be fulfilled or what should or should not "rightfully" occur. So maybe we're just coming with different approaches. I read comics to see what a writer has to say about the subject at hand. To read the story where "Batman dies", or anyone dies, has no intrinsic value in itself.

Apart from that the the run has served a huge purpose outside of killing (or replacing) Batman, so I don't really know why any comments about Knightfall having 'done it before' are very relevant. Knightfall itself was an extended rehash of Blind Justice, does that make it unnecessary? I don't think so. Knightfall was a great marketing move that added a new, valuable and enlightening shape to the overall Batman mythos, and alot of people really enjoyed it, it created many longtime fans even. Ditto on RIP, times a hundred.

I agree with your first paragraph 100% so there's no need to debate that any further. The second paragraph, I agree that if they writer/editor say they aren't going to kill the character I will take their word for it but as a consumer, it's not my responsibility to look up interviews from anyone especially when it pertains to a creative story. My goal is to go into the story with no spoilers or anything that will ruin something about it for me. Yes RIP is catchy, and they may have said in interviews they weren't going to kill him but I still think the title is misleading.
Like yourself, I don't buy the comics for the milestones in them but there are collectors that do. That is a fact, it may not be my goal when I go to the store but that doesn't mean the next 10 people aren't going to buy it for that one reason.
Also I do disagree that the concern shouldn't be the fans. That is the source of income for the company. Granted there are many factors that should be balanced, but whether or not fans will respond positively or negatively is factored in the equation. The goal is to sell the story and lead to more sales of future stories. If you were to turn around and say "screw the fans" and put out something they all hate, you will lose their money, and after all that is what every business is about.

 

[tekken]

dick is batman now. lol.

i'll allow dick to surpass batman in things like acrobatics, and i'll allow tim do surpass batman in detective work, but in the end, batman will be the best all around guy-fighting, instilling fear, manipulating people, being 1000 steps ahead of everyone, disappearing when you look back, etc)

sorry if i spoiled anyone...but dick is going to be the next batman.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Dick is Batman now? That's official? (for now, anyway)

 

[Drz]

Well Tony Daniel posted his Batman suit design and it had the name Dick, he closed down his blogspot site (which is a shame tbh) but did claim that he made batsuit designs for all the Robins, but i do believe he did spill the beans.

 

[kapow]

if you look at it that dick grayson as been fighting crime from a younger age then bruce wayne i would by it that dick grayson is a better fighter than bruce wayne but it does'nt show as bruce is more focused on his mission.

i would like to see this some day even if it a elseworld story

 

[kapow]

if you look at it that dick grayson as been fighting crime from a younger age then bruce wayne i would by it that dick grayson is a better fighter than bruce wayne but it does'nt show as bruce is more focused on his mission.

i would like to see this some day even if it a elseworld story

 

[Nepenthes]

if you look at it that dick grayson as been fighting crime from a younger age then bruce wayne i would by it that dick grayson is a better fighter than bruce wayne but it does'nt show as bruce is more focused on his mission.

i would like to see this some day even if it a elseworld story

It's not an Elseworlds it's called "Batman & Robin" and it's starting in June by Frank Morrison and Grant Quietly, the team who did All Star Superman, New X-Men and We3, all top-level comics if you ask anyone who knows what they're talking about. It continues directly from Battle of the Cowl.

pictures http://au.comics.ign.com/articles/961/961488p1.html

 

[kapow]

Nepenthes:
yes i know batman and robin isn't a elseworld story i was saying that i would like fan to allow nightwing to surpass batman even if its in a elseworld story as fans i know dont like elseworld storys. just because we think dick grayson will be the new batman it doesnt mean fan will allow dick grayson to surpass Bruce Wayne.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

Nepenthes:
yes i know batman and robin isn't a elseworld story i was saying that i would like fan to allow nightwing to surpass batman even if its in a elseworld story as fans i know dont like elseworld storys. just because we think dick grayson will be the new batman it doesnt mean fan will allow dick grayson to surpass Bruce Wayne.

He's just trying to advertise.

 

[kapow]

whos trying to advertise

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

whos trying to advertise

Nepenthes. I was just joking, he/she always brings up Morrison's run in every topic I've seen him/her post, it's quite funny.

 

[Nepenthes]

well what is else is there to talk about

 

[JerseyJoker]

Dick should not be anything other than Nightwing.

I just can't see him taking on the Batman mantel, knowing what comes with it, and he should never revert back to Robin.

Nightwing is just the perfect idea and character for Dick, it works for him for so long and he has made it his own.

 

[kapow]

i look at the reason bruce wayne took dick grayson and the robins in wasnt that he wanted a side kick it was so he had some1 to take over if he died or couldnt continue

 

[Nepenthes]

^ exactly

So when you're writing a story about the idea of Batman dying, you address the obvious conclusions. Just consider that if it wasn't Dick, everyone would be whinging even more.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

IMO, Batman and Robin are obviously Dick and Damien.

 

[kapow]

yep and i would be the 1st one to

 

[Freakjokerxxx]

Dick can't surpass Bruce as Batman. He doesn't have the mentality to. Bruce built Batman. It comes from him. Dick can put on the cape and cowl and do Bruce's business. I have no problem with that. He's just filler until Bruce's inevitable return.