Will fans ever allow Nightwing to surpass Batman?

[trustyside-kick]

I never saw Dick and Bruce as a Father/Son relationship. Some of the comics pull it off, but largely I don't see it like that. I always saw it as Dick seeing Bruce as a brother. Jason saw Bruce as someone special. Tim at this point actually sees Bruce as his Father.

There's plenty of times when you just want to see them acknowledge that fact. Like Bruce NEEDS to hear Tim and Dick both say "You're my Father now", but you don't see it. Part of the drama.

After a lot of thought...if you think about it there probably wouldn't be a Batman after Bruce died. At least not for a while. You'd have Nightwing and Robin along with the rest of the Bat family following in his foosteps in their own ways. Would one of them take up the mantle in a dire time to show their enemies that Batman has returned? Probably. Everything that is hinted here and there about Tim Drake and what has happened recently to him just leads me to believe he's going to be Batman one day and knows that.

It's primarily in Jeph Loeb stories, but hey...I like Jeph. I am reminded of what he said in Hush.

"Tim wants to be the World's greatest detective...and from what I see...he will be. Someday."

Which to me is him in his own way saying "He'll put the cowl on one day."

Main problem I have with what you are saying is that Dick looks to Bruce like a brother. I strongly disagree since Bruce basically raised the kid. He took him in at around age 8/9 and Dick is like, what...22ish maybe now? I don't recall any stories either that would show Dick feel for Bruce as a brother instead of a father.

Furthermore, I don't see how Tim could view Bruce as a father more since his father just recently died in Identity Crisis. You have to take into consideration a lot of other stories involving these characters not just in the Batman series. How could Tim think of Bruce in such a way growing up his entire life up to his teens with a father of his own? He hasn't been Robin for that long. You also have to take into consideration how time works in comics. If anything, Tim would view Bruce as a big brother or an uncle; not Dick.

I remember in JLA: Obsidian Age, one of the things I loved most about it was when the JLA died and Batman already had those machine probes set up for recruitment. The talk between Nightwing and that one girl (name escapes me at the moment) was just amazing. It added even more to the already established idea of Dick really being Bruce's kid rather than his ward.

Out of all the old ex-side-kicks in the DCU, probably the only one I can imagine not viewing their mentor like a father would be the relationship of Tempest and Aquaman. That is really the only bond I could see as a "big bro, little bro" deal. Aquaman may view Tempest like a son at times, but Tempest has always seen Orin as a big brother.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Main problem I have with what you are saying is that Dick looks to Bruce like a brother. I strongly disagree since Bruce basically raised the kid. He took him in at around age 8/9 and Dick is like, what...22ish maybe now? I don't recall any stories either that would show Dick feel for Bruce as a brother instead of a father.

Furthermore, I don't see how Tim could view Bruce as a father more since his father just recently died in Identity Crisis. You have to take into consideration a lot of other stories involving these characters not just in the Batman series. How could Tim think of Bruce in such a way growing up his entire life up to his teens with a father of his own? He hasn't been Robin for that long. You also have to take into consideration how time works in comics. If anything, Tim would view Bruce as a big brother or an uncle; not Dick.

I remember in JLA: Obsidian Age, one of the things I loved most about it was when the JLA died and Batman already had those machine probes set up for recruitment. The talk between Nightwing and that one girl (name escapes me at the moment) was just amazing. It added even more to the already established idea of Dick really being Bruce's kid rather than his ward.

Out of all the old ex-side-kicks in the DCU, probably the only one I can imagine not viewing their mentor like a father would be the relationship of Tempest and Aquaman. That is really the only bond I could see as a "big bro, little bro" deal. Aquaman may view Tempest like a son at times, but Tempest has always seen Orin as a big brother.

Great post... I also loved the whole Nightwing/JLA/Batman dynamic in that story. Batman claims that Grayson is the only thing he ever did right. Great writing.

Nerdy Spit Voice: "But Batman does EVERYTHING right! With prep time!"

 

[ironmaidenrules]

okay

it wont ever happen

even if dick wins the fight, bruce will be all "finally! u started paying attention" or some ****

we'll have bruce taking the credit for making dick strong enough to beat him

so in the process of dick trying to prove how better her is, he just ends up showing how great bruce is and how much bruce means to him and all that ****.


btw, i think dick is just a better human compared to bruce
dick can turn it off ya know, he fights the fight but he also lives a life

in that sense he is better because while bruce gave up his life after his parents died(u know his mom and pop would be pissed right about now), dick lived his life just as his fun loving circus family would want

 

[TheDemon'sHead]

I think one of the problems with Nightwing is that ever since Chuck Dixon left the title, everyone's struggled to find a direction for Dick. In turn, they've trashed any and all of Dixon's groundwork that makes a hero interesting.
Bludhaven is gone. All of the people who lived in his apartment are gone. Amy is gone. Dick being a cop is gone. The point of Dick leaving Gotham and staying in Bludhaven was to clean up the place. Bludhaven needed Nightwing.

Now he's in New York and doing who knows what (Hopefully the annual will shed some light on all this.) But there's no supporting characters and the book is incredibly flat. Someone needs to step up the writing and find a direction for him to go. And I don't think Marv Wolfman is doing that great of a job on it.

Nightwing's not supposed to be Batman. He's not supposed to be a loner. He has friends and I think that's an aspect that's highly underutilized. I don't know. I'm just ranting....

 

[joe petree]

i agree with lots of lafs

 

[larryfilmmaker]

I think it would be an interesting story to see some huge threat to Gotham or the country, whatever... and a powerless hero must be chosen and Nightwing is chosen over Batman to lead the defense. I mean, not because Batman is sick, or he's training int he mountains, or he's too busy being grumpy... but seriously have Nightwing simply chosen over Batman as the best man to represent the powerless heroes. It would be an AWESOME dynamic between the two of them and would have readers and fans at each other's throats making excuses for why each and every little thing happened the way it did and who's truly better for what situations. When another can challenge the top dog's greatness, it shows what makes him great to begin with.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

... not entirely unlike the recent Leo/Raph fight in TMNT. It showed both characters' strengths and both characters' weaknesses and left fans wondering STILL who would win in a balls to the wall throw down.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Nightwing's not supposed to be Batman. He's not supposed to be a loner. He has friends and I think that's an aspect that's highly underutilized. I don't know. I'm just ranting....

He develops a strong and firm relationship with one of the members of the GCPD.

He takes in a 9 year old kid, trains him, develops a father-son relationship with him, and basically raises him and he is a loner.

He enlists a young spiritual girl who is ironically the niece/adopted daughter of one of closest friends into his war on crime and trains her and develops a strong friendship...but he is a loner.

He then takes in another kid, in his teens, and develops a big brother/little brother relationship and that kid goes through the same training and such as the first kid. Oh but I forgot, Batman is a loner.

Then he takes in a kid who is determined to be the Robin that he claims he needs, and as well takes him under his wing, creating an uncle/nephew relationship with the kid and trains him. Eventually that uncle/nephew relationship expands to almost, but not quite father/son relationship. But let us not forget...Batman is a loner.

I know I didn't include all of the people that have come to be known as being members of the so-called "Bat Family", but those to me were the most essential. I don't think Gordon himself is, but he was one of those people important enough to be said that wasn't part of the "Bat Family".

...Oh yes. Batman is such a loner alright. Yup...

He may not be the most welcoming person, but he is by no means a loner. And yea, I understand Dick being much more friendly and social, but that doesn't mean he cannot qualify as Batman because of it. People keep saying Tim will be Batman someday...you are telling me Tim isn't friendly and social like Dick? And this isn't a personal attack or anything, but I'm just so tired of hearing that Batman is a loner. He's grown to be much more dark and gained some "prick-like" qualities but he still isn't a loner.

 

[joe petree]

good point trustyside - kick

 

[TheDemon'sHead]

That is a good point...

But that's not what my post was about.

 

[trustyside-kick]

I know, but you did mention it at the end. I'm just tired of hearing that which is why I made sure I mentioned that it was not a personal attack.

 

[raybia]

The student becomes the master and youth replaces age. That's just life and the way of things... so will it ever be acceptable to establish that maybe Nightwing is atleast a better fighter than Batman? I mean... if Batman is really the best ever at everything, then didn't Nightwing have the single best instructor in the entire world and pass with flying colors? If Batman is so obsessed with his war, wouldn't he have made sure that he'd passed on everything he possibly could to Grayson to ensure that the war goes on after Bruce is old or dead? No, Tim doesn't figure in. Neither does Jason, or Azrael, or whatever. I'm talking the originals. Batman and Robin. Father and son. Why is this like one of the only characters who isn't allowed to be surpassed by his protege? I mean... doesn't it make the character and story that much cooler if things are allowed to progress naturally? I know people are going to start spouting off Batman's ridiculously unmatched abilities and superhuman everything, but storywise, why won't fans let this happen? I'm not saying to do it forever, or maybe not even in continuity, but how long can a character be a protege? Especially one as unique and (growingly) popular as Grayson/Nightwing/Robin?

Batman's obsession is what will prevent Dick or Tim from surpassing them. Plus, Batman has taught Dick and Tim everything they know, but he hasn't taught them everything he knows.

Also in the comic world, thing characters stay perpetually young. So...

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Batman's obsession is what will prevent Dick or Tim from surpassing them. Plus, Batman has taught Dick and Tim everything they know, but he hasn't taught them everything he knows.

Also in the comic world, thing characters stay perpetually young. So...

Batman is a selfless hero. There's absolutely no reason at all he wouldn't teach his proteges everything he possibly could. If it was his "obsession" that drives him, then he would be obsessed enough to make sure his "soldiers" in the war on crime were as capable, if not more so, than he is. It makes zero sense why he wouldn't teach his students everything, aside from the fact that fans just don't want him to. He's a hero obsessed with fighting crime, not some guy who just wants to be the best and manipulate everything just because he can.

 

[Batmansince1939]

I tink it is impossible seeing that Nightwing will never be able to have the same passion a Batman

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Did Bane have the same passion? Did The Mutant Leader have it in DKR? Of all humans... I'd put Grayson up there as maybe the only guy who DOES have the same passion... just not the same obsession. Does that mean he can't be better? Not to me it doesn't.

 

[Bnightwing]

nightwing is a great person iam a huge nightwing fan but i think we should wait for nightwing to get better i mean bruce wasent too good at first but just wait till he gets older not too old though

 

[Batmansince1939]

Did Bane have the same passion? Did The Mutant Leader have it in DKR? Of all humans... I'd put Grayson up there as maybe the only guy who DOES have the same passion... just not the same obsession. Does that mean he can't be better? Not to me it doesn't.

Well passion or obsession, none the less it makes nightwing unable to be The Batman, as well in my opinion does not have the skill or experience to be

for example the whole azrael series he didn't stand his own with Azrael only Bruce as Batman could, and if anyone was to be able to become Batman I would feel it to be Azrael/John Valley(at least right now)...

nightwing is a great person iam a huge nightwing fan but i think we should wait for nightwing to get better i mean bruce wasent too good at first but just wait till he gets older not too old though

I agree with this, give it some time and watch him become great...

 

[Robin91939]

I guess the best way is to run through all of the contestants competing for the mantle of Batman.

In terms of who wants to be Batman....Cassandra Cain wanted the role.

To bad she got another role instead- the leader of the League of Assassins, so don't expect her to be Bat-anything in the future.

- Tim Drake is in line for the role- Bruce Wayne has said as much (Robin: Unmasked. However, Tim Drake doesn't really want the role. Things have been changing since One Year Later that are suggesting that he will be more open to the possibility of replacing Bruce Wayne as Batman when the time comes.

- Huntress is too unstable and unskilled to be the main Bat themed vigilante in Gotham.

- Barbara is wheel chair bound.

- Jean Paul Valley is presumed dead.

- Dick Grayson was Batman for about a minute and a half when Bruce Wayne was crippled by Bane. He doesn't really want to be Batman. It goes against his character and his motivation to make his own way. Yet, in Bruce's mind, he is a candidate and qualified for it.

Out of the possible candidates, all of the "Bat-family", Tim Drake and Dick Grayson are the only true contenders. My bet is that if anyone ever permanently replaced Bruce Wayne, it would be Tim Drake. Fans love him. He is now an orphan, with a tragic past. He is a boy genius, skilled detective and now a great fighter. He's young enough that if and when he becomes Batman he'd be in his 20's and give a lot of continuity time to continue his story.

-R

 

[Batmansince1939]

I guess the best way is to run through all of the contestants competing for the mantle of Batman.

In terms of who wants to be Batman....Cassandra Cain wanted the role.

To bad she got another role instead- the leader of the League of Assassins, so don't expect her to be Bat-anything in the future.

- Tim Drake is in line for the role- Bruce Wayne has said as much (Robin: Unmasked. However, Tim Drake doesn't really want the role. Things have been changing since One Year Later that are suggesting that he will be more open to the possibility of replacing Bruce Wayne as Batman when the time comes.

- Huntress is too unstable and unskilled to be the main Bat themed vigilante in Gotham.

- Barbara is wheel chair bound.

- Jean Paul Valley is presumed dead.

- Dick Grayson was Batman for about a minute and a half when Bruce Wayne was crippled by Bane. He doesn't really want to be Batman. It goes against his character and his motivation to make his own way. Yet, in Bruce's mind, he is a candidate and qualified for it.

Out of the possible candidates, all of the "Bat-family", Tim Drake and Dick Grayson are the only true contenders. My bet is that if anyone ever permanently replaced Bruce Wayne, it would be Tim Drake. Fans love him. He is now an orphan, with a tragic past. He is a boy genius, skilled detective and now a great fighter. He's young enough that if and when he becomes Batman he'd be in his 20's and give a lot of continuity time to continue his story.

-R

hmmm good job I would have to say you put this into good words and after reading this I feel the same way about your theroy about Tim,

 

[larryfilmmaker]

I think with today's writers, Nightwing would beat Jean Paule one on one. He was seen as second string until the last 5 years or so. He's GROWING finally, something I don't see Tim Drake ever doing. Drake, I think, is stuck as Robin forever now. They can't kill Robin twice, and they can't have Robin become a new superhero a second time either. Drake is Robin. The story of the evolution of the "R" has been done. The story of the evolution of the "bat symbol" has not.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

and this thread was NEVER about Nightwing being Batman. It was about him surpassing him.

 

[Batmansince1939]

and this thread was NEVER about Nightwing being Batman. It was about him surpassing him.

good point, but to be honest Batman has gotten to the point, in my opinion, that you can't surpass him as a human but maybe become equal to him....if that makes sense?

 

[The Sage]

I wouldn't mind seeing Nightwing battle Batman to standstill.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

good point, but to be honest Batman has gotten to the point, in my opinion, that you can't surpass him as a human but maybe become equal to him....if that makes sense?

Claim that Superman can't be surpassed as a superhuman and riots will ensue. Only Batman gets away with this stuff now. It's nuts.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

I hereby declare this thread: BUMPED. Have opinions changed now with rumors of Wayne's death?