Wonder Woman vs Black Panther

[The Batman]

Both naive and tone deaf at once.

How so? Please, enlighten me as to how I'm being Tone Deaf.

And naive as well. Nice attempt at the edit, though.

 

[Tony Stark]

The biggest draw back of WW is the fact that the story is just a rehash of everything that came before it with a female lead.

The greatest thing about Black Panther is that it didn't exploit the "hey guys this is the first black superhero film!", and then rest on the laurels of Marvel and say "hey this was the same guy in Civil War!". There was a great script behind the film, and the fact that Black Panther was another B list hero that Marvel has elevated to A-list.

It's interesting that both Wonder Woman and Black Panther were introduced in other films as secondary characters, albeit T'Challa had more of a direct role in Civil War than Wonder Woman just showing up for an end battle cameo. And while Wonder Woman was certainly by far the best of the DCEU films, there was just a lot lacking after the luster of what was a charming film, degraded into a film with a weak script, weak villains.

Black Panther wasn't perfect, but it tried to do something new and something we haven't seen before, and had a whole host of characters that were far more interesting than anything we saw in Wonder Woman.

Painting T'Chaka as a flawed man who had to live with the sins of his past and hide him from his people and his son, is a far more powerful message than the cookie cutter good mother that Hippolyta was portrayed as. She had a daughter with Zeus and hid it from her daughter and her people, and it's not really dealt with in any kind of serious way.

Black Panther probably isn't "the best ever", but it is very, very good and it gave us something very different that what we've normally been getting out of these films and that's not an easy task to accomplish.

 

[DACrowe]

How so? Please, enlighten me as to how I'm being Tone Deaf.

And naive as well. Nice attempt at the edit, though.

I removed naive because it sounded petty, and maybe it was. But I standby that it is being willfully selective of how fan culture works to pretend that there is not a hype around these movies that makes it easy for them to be overblown as "flawless," "masterpieces" and "the best superhero movie since The Dark Knight." Which I have seen Black Panther called all of by three different posts in the last 24 hours. Do you not really think there won't be a deeper dive of criticism, especially in these parts, when we're well past the opening weekend?

As for tone deaf, I left that in, because I didn't feel it was petty. Dr Cosmic was commenting on how unfortunate it is that within 72 hours of Black Panther opening, that someone had made a thread pitting the first A-picture superhero movie starring a woman against the first A-picture superhero movie starring a man of color.

Your response was, in essence, "Don't blame me Wonder Woman is getting her ass kicked." Considering Cosmic was referring to the political importance of these movies, and how unfortunate is that our first inclination is to make them compete, that was indeed quite tone deaf as a response.

 

[The Batman]

I removed naive because it sounded petty, and maybe it was.

Oh, it was, and it definitely makes me believe that there was truth to what I was saying. This isn't the first time you had this kind of reaction when a film you liked was losing in a poll.

As for tone deaf, I left that in, because I didn't feel it was petty. Dr Cosmic was commenting on how unfortunate it is that within 72 hours of Black Panther opening, that someone had made a thread pitting the first A-picture superhero movie starring a woman against the first A-picture superhero movie starring a man of color.

Yeah, this doesn't wash. My response was in no way in relation to the idea of pitting two minority led films against each other, but instead a response to what I assumed was yet another person complaining about how soon this poll was.

 

[Zarex]

No matter who wins this poll, us white guys lose......

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Not really. I wasn't gonna hold off on this thread because a few people feel some type of way about WW getting its ass kicked in a poll, which was gonna happen no matter when this thread was gonna be created.

Nothing to do with WW getting its ass kicked. Even a few months down the line I think my vote will be BP. Both Logan and Ragnorak were above WW for me last year, possible even GOTG2. BUT, historically on SHH, when polls are done for a brand new movie vs an older one, the brand new one wins the majority of the time. Then the brand new one enters a poll a year later when it’s a year older and loses spectacularly.

I just think you get a better measure and fairer votes when a poll involves 2 movies that have been out for a while and people have had a chance to re-watch them plenty.

 

[Kane52630]

Without question...

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I like how women and black people being successful is against the statue of liberty. Gives a nice insight into the thought process of these chuds.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

.

BP's perception won't likely decrease over time like WW's. WW falls apart the moment any of it's deeper themes are considered in light of the entirety of the film's events.

Can you elaborate?

 

[Awest66]

Really enjoyed both, but Black Panther by a hair.

 

[Zarex]

I like how women and black people being successful is against the statue of liberty. Gives a nice insight into the thought process of these chuds.

The comic is from The Onion.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

It could easily be real. Not so different from the racist artwork pumped out by 4chan.

 

[DrCosmic]

I like how women and black people being successful is against the statue of liberty. Gives a nice insight into the thought process of these chuds.

That's the Onion's cartoonist. By nakedly stating the racist sentiment, it underlines the ridiculousness of the premise of itself.

That said, in today's political climate, many cartoonishly evil things are totally acceptable politically, and so I can see how it's no longer funny for some.

Can you elaborate?

Just the simple contradictions of the third act. The stated theme, that man is a complicated creature and not merely evil by the work of Ares is torpedoed by the end of the film where Ares' death does end the war, it seems, and so much of the pathos and much of the dialogue is diminished in that choice. The subtext of female empowerment is strong, but it seems to end when she leaves Themyscira, and drops in for a moment for the NML scene. Beyond that, she is directed, and gains power only through her love for Steve in his heroism, which grants her aggressive power that is usually coded masculine, so that what she ultimately brings to save the world is more muscles and violence, as opposed to something inspiring.

In comparing how these two will be viewed after their release, deeper reflection on Wonder Woman leads to a less fulfilling experience, while with BP, someone today hit me with: "T'Challa and Killmonger's fight was, get this, on an underground railroad! WHOA!" Which is silly, and likely coincidental, but it both invites and bears that kind of thematic analysis. Whatever theme you pick out of BP, whether it's the African's relationship with the Diaspora, the empathy due the radical extremist, or the conflict between bonds of love and love of country, the value of tradition and the consequences of when that tradition is weaponized against you, these ideas are never undermined, and so they can be reflected on for an incredible amount of time.

 

[DACrowe]

Oh, it was, and it definitely makes me believe that there was truth to what I was saying. This isn't the first time you had this kind of reaction when a film you liked was losing in a poll.

I agree, at least with the part that it sounded petty. Hence my admitting it. I standby though that you know in this forum polls are always going to be slanted to the new film during its opening weekend. I also noticed you didn't bother responding to that point, and turned it into a critique of me caring about a movie I liked "losing a poll." Maybe only partially since the last time I brought it up, the movie I voted for won the poll (Logan, 2017 films).

Yeah, this doesn't wash. My response was in no way in relation to the idea of pitting two minority led films against each other, but instead a response to what I assumed was yet another person complaining about how soon this poll was.

Actually it does wash. I know you were not commenting on the politics. Cosmic was, however, and you come back with this kind of braggadocious response with the literal words "getting its ass kicked."

I know that wasn't your intent to be commenting on the politics of it. But that is what Cosmic, and frankly a number of other posters, brought up (and no, I'm not one of them). Hence why I said it was "tone deaf." Do you not see the irony in saying that when someone is asking why are we making them compete?

 

[Flint Marko]

Just the simple contradictions of the third act. The stated theme, that man is a complicated creature and not merely evil by the work of Ares is torpedoed by the end of the film where Ares' death does end the war, it seems, and so much of the pathos and much of the dialogue is diminished in that choice.

That's always bugged me.

"I didn't do anything, they did it to themselves!" Cut to bright sunny skies and cheerful soldiers once he's killed.

 

[FunkMiller]

That's always bugged me.

"I didn't do anything, they did it to themselves!" Cut to bright sunny skies and cheerful soldiers once he's killed.

Yeah, WW rather falls apart in that last 15 minutes on many levels.

Still has the best iconic moment though of the two movies.

 

[Flint Marko]

Yeah, WW rather falls apart in that last 15 minutes on many levels.

Still has the best iconic moment though of the two movies.

Yeah I agree, the No Man's Land scene is the best single moment out of either movie.

 

[The Batman]

I agree, at least with the part that it sounded petty. Hence my admitting it. I standby though that you know in this forum polls are always going to be slanted to the new film during its opening weekend. I also noticed you didn't bother responding to that point, and turned it into a critique of me caring about a movie I liked "losing a poll." Maybe only partially since the last time I brought it up, the movie I voted for won the poll (Logan, 2017 films).

I didn't need to respond that point, because as far as I was concerned, all that "new films are going to be slanted" talk was just an extension of you not liking when your personal favorite film gets beat in a poll. Not to mention that, as I've been saying, Wonder Woman was gonna lose the poll no matter when said poll would be made.

Actually it does wash.

No...it doesn't. Even Dr. Cosmic understood that I simply misinterpreted his post, hence why he clarified what he meant in response to my supposedly "tone deaf" post. And the whole "pitting the two minorities against each other" discussion was not as prevalent as you're trying to make it sound. There were, what, two people who brought it up, one time each, before Dr Cosmic did in one vague sentence? Said sentence surrounded by talk on how criticism of both movies will be more even handed in a future months?

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Just the simple contradictions of the third act. The stated theme, that man is a complicated creature and not merely evil by the work of Ares is torpedoed by the end of the film where Ares' death does end the war, it seems, and so much of the pathos and much of the dialogue is diminished in that choice

Gotcha. I haven't watched Wonder Woman since it came out. A rewatch is due with this in mind.

The subtext of female empowerment is strong, but it seems to end when she leaves Themyscira, and drops in for a moment for the NML scene. Beyond that, she is directed

What about her toying with Victorian era norms? Barging into Parliament? I thought female empowerment was still running strong.

Beyond that, she is directed, and gains power only through her love for Steve in his heroism

Wasn't Steve always a stand in for humanity though? Her relationship to humanity has exactly mirrored her relationship to Steve. What she felt for him is what she felt for humanity at any given moment.

which grants her aggressive power that is usually coded masculine, so that what she ultimately brings to save the world is more muscles and violence, as opposed to something inspiring.

The dilemma of all comic book characters about peace and love in a genre of beating people up.

In comparing how these two will be viewed after their release, deeper reflection on Wonder Woman leads to a less fulfilling experience, while with BP, someone today hit me with: "T'Challa and Killmonger's fight was, get this, on an underground railroad!

That's brilliant. It's probably not intentional. But that doesn't matter. It invokes a powerful image none the less. I suppose I didn't make the same connection because I was too distracted by the poor CG.

That's the Onion's cartoonist. By nakedly stating the racist sentiment, it underlines the ridiculousness of the premise of itself.

The reason I fell for that is because I've seen cartoons just like that which weren't satire. The line has blurred in recent times.

 

[CB Fan]

I don’t need repeat viewings to know that BP is better than WW. I also didn’t need it to know The Dark Knight was better than most that came before it when it was released. Some may need that time, and that’s fine, but others do not and I can easily say that BP is better than WW. That said the major disappointment of my day is that I’ve found myself in yet another VS. thread, I’m upset with myself.

 

[psylockolussus]

Wonder Woman. It snatched my wig. It was that fierce!

 

[psylockolussus]

It's nice to see the Internet come together and force two films with minority leads against each other. Brings a tear to my eye.

You must have missed the Elektra vs Catwoman discussions.

 

[DACrowe]

I didn't need to respond that point, because as far as I was concerned, all that "new films are going to be slanted" talk was just an extension of you not liking when your personal favorite film gets beat in a poll. Not to mention that, as I've been saying, Wonder Woman was gonna lose the poll no matter when said poll would be made.

Hence the initial smug (by design) gif, because I categorically disagree with that statement and dismissal of my thoughts, and we've now earnestly unpacked why, so I'll leave it be.

No...it doesn't. Even Dr. Cosmic understood that I simply misinterpreted his post, hence why he clarified what he meant in response to my supposedly "tone deaf" post. And the whole "pitting the two minorities against each other" discussion was not as prevalent as you're trying to make it sound. There were, what, two people who brought it up, one time each, before Dr Cosmic did in one vague sentence? Said sentence surrounded by talk on how criticism of both movies will be more even handed in a future months?

I understand you misunderstood the post. My glib response about it being tone deaf (as well as the gif) was in reaction to how glib your response was--"kicking its ass"--which to me did miss the point of Cosmic's criticism, and was "off" in that context. Deaf in tone.

I am sorry if you took the remark personally or if you construed I was implying anything about your politics. I meant it a smirk or eye roll in contrast of your rather flippant comment (which I am aware was more aimed at me than Cosmic, hence again the gif). Apologies if you took it as an insult or misrepresentation of your thoughts on these movies' cultural significance. I did not mean to imply that.

 

[psylockolussus]

Blade did what first?

The first Marvel film trilogy in which all films got a rotten rating and grossed less than $100 million in North America.

What a revolution.

 

[Hammer!]

If BP is only winning because it just came out why is it tied for third for best phase 3 film in the other poll?

I vote WW even though both are a 7.5 for me. Mostly due to there being numerous better Marvel Studio ‘Origin’ films in the last ten years while WW is head and shoulders above every DC film in that same timespan.