Wrestling: The Action Soap Opera Thread - - Part 15

[Hellion]

Solid review, but the PPV gets a....

I'm sure it will be on youtube soon...I'll just wait....

...nice review for a sad event...

 

[Lantern Venom]

In UFC you HAVE to watch the big time fights oN PPV.






I have to give Bischoff credit he was doing the evil authority figure before Vince McMahon ever decided to do it.

But yeah at this point its such a tired old concept thats been run into the ground. Right now Bischoff cuts a better promo than Vince because he's a NATURAL weisel (Vince can only pull it off when he's motivated..like against Bret Hart) but otherwise Vince's heel promos aren't NEARLY as good as they were in from 97-2001. He was such an entertainer on the mic then.

Bischoff needs to step back from his on are role and Vince needs to step away all together.

I thought Vince was far, far superior to Eric as an on-air character. I can't remember a single Bischoff promo that I thought of as outstanding. Vince delivered amazing promos and character moments on a weekly basis.

That being said, I wanted him gone as an on-air character 2 or so years after the Austin feud. I didn't even like the DX feud and I'm an enormous HBK mark.

Wait, so you have a crystal ball? You've sat in a board room with Vince McMahon and had conversations with you about this? Vince has told you personally that this is why CM Punk hasn't had a consistent push?

Or is it just yet another IWC conspiracy because they need to try to justify in their minds why a guy they like isn't getting pushed the way they think he should be?

I have not met one single wrestling fan outside of this forum that thinks CM Punk deserves any more than he has gotten. This is from people who *like* CM Punk and think he's a great heel. CM Punk IS a great heel. But he's not the *whole package* by WWE standards.

He's not larger than life. He's not a spectacle. He's as, Gotham stated earlier, a guy who comes out and wrestles. And yes he can cut a good promo also. But he's not the "whole package" and that's why he hasn't gotten a consistent push.

Punk is the whole package- different look, possibly the best mic worker in the biz, great in-ring skills, charisma.

Punk's problem is two-fold. #1, he has the most normal body in WWE. Even similar-framed guys like Miz have more definition and musculature. That doesn't sit well with Vince. #2, Punk seems content with himself as a person, which is great of course, but I think his admitted introversion might rub some of the CT the wrong way.

 

[Nemi]

Uh..I never said WHY Punk wasn't getting pushed so how can it be a correction? how was I wrong?

But just to play along...correction to your so called correction: Punk was getting buried BEFORE he ever thought about taking time off from WWE this year.

If was about taking time off why was he constantly buried during the SES gimmick and why did he seem to constantly be jobbing to Rey Mysterio? Same thing happened when he faced Taker. After a while he never seemed to get a leg up.

He's hardly ever REALLY gotten a solid and consistent Push from WWE even though he's always delivered on his end. And thats because he was an indy star in a company that enjoys beating down indie stars wills and he's never been one to play politics as much as most.

Anyone who made a name outside of WWE prepare to get taken down a peg because what you did elsewhere don't mean sh** to Vince. The only exception to that Rule has breen Flair and thats because Vince loved his showmanship and his similarities to his boyhood wrestling heroes.

What about Sin Cara and Kharma? Do you think that's just cause they are new and will be punished for it later or is someone (possibly Triple H) keeping Vince from doing it?

 

[Saint]

I have not met one single wrestling fan outside of this forum that thinks CM Punk deserves any more than he has gotten.

A few weeks ago during the Orton/Punk match on Raw, half the arena was chanting "RKO," and the other half was responding "GTS." So, yeah, I'm pretty sure at least half that arena wants to see Punk get more of push than he's received so far.

You know, since they probably weren't chanting "GTS" in the hopes that Punk would continue to job out (as he did that night).

 

[Metallo]

Nell, despite the fact that Vince McMahon put Dusty Rhodes in polka dots, made Harley Race wear a crown and cape, and for reasons still not quite clear decided to call Dory Funk Jr HOSS Funk my questioning of Vince McMahon and his use of outside stars is ALL a big conspiracy theory.

So these guys were stars made outside of WWE. That didn't influence Vinnie Macs treatment of them at all right?.

It had nothing to do with looking at Vince McMahons pattern of behavior on a case by case basis for the last 25 plus years

 

[Metallo]

I thought Vince was far, far superior to Eric as an on-air character. I can't remember a single Bischoff promo that I thought of as outstanding. Vince delivered amazing promos and character moments on a weekly basis.

That being said, I wanted him gone as an on-air character 2 or so years after the Austin feud. I didn't even like the DX feud and I'm an enormous HBK mark.

Bsichoffs NWO promo challenging Vince was gold. Got a lot of people talking at the time

Punk is the whole package- different look, possibly the best mic worker in the biz, great in-ring skills, charisma.

Punk's problem is two-fold. #1, he has the most normal body in WWE. Even similar-framed guys like Miz have more definition and musculature. That doesn't sit well with Vince. #2, Punk seems content with himself as a person, which is great of course, but I think his admitted introversion might rub some of the CT the wrong way.

Punks not going to play the game as much as some. He's never had a problem voicing his opinion. And if you don't do it WWE and Vince's way up there you are screwed. Its a testament to Punks talent that he's lasted as long as he did and gone as far as he did.

Anybody who crosses Vince or critisizes the company or doesn't play the game risks a responds. Its like when Austin critisized creative and then walked out. WWE immediatly went into propoganda mode trying to paint Austin in a bad light in any way they could. Some of it was deserved but some of it wasn't...but he got it despite being arguably the bisggest star in WWE history.

We've all seen what McMahon does when he doesn't get his way or people don't follow his rules. Piper got a pink slip for voicing his opinions on steriods.

But Nell would tell you ALL that is part fo the IWC conspiracy

 

[Wheels]

Sting must believe in conspiracy theories.

 

[Metallo]

Sting must believe in conspiracy theories.

Yup...according too Nell Sting must be part of the IWC too...believing in all the conspiracies? Doesn't matter than he's met McMahon face to face and been workign in the business for over 25 years.

What about Sin Cara and Kharma? Do you think that's just cause they are new and will be punished for it later or is someone (possibly Triple H) keeping Vince from doing it?

Sin Cara is a bit different because WWE desperately wants to grow in the Hispanic market. They need a representative. Its th same reason Khali still has a job despite sucking like a hoover vacuum cleaner.

But its hard to say what will happen long term.

Kharma is a sideshow attraction and Vince being the pure CARNIE eccentric that he is loves freakshows. In a lot of ways thats what WWE has been over the years. A carnie show or freakshow. Its part of his blood. He sees Kharma and instantly sees a special attraction. Remember Vince's strength was ALWAYS taking performers from other promotions and making them stars. While Kong achieved some fame outside of WWE Vince doesn't really consider TNA as major competition right now so that may cause him to make an exception.

But thats no guarantee that she will always be treated well and used right long term: look at Big Van Vader after a few years in WWF. In the end he could tear her down after he's gotten all he can out of her.
If she had been a star that was competition for WWE he may not have tried to use her as good for as long. Right now he sees someone he can take to a higher level with the WWE promotional machine, which is true.

But as far as WWE is concerned everything she did before WWE doesn't matter no matter how good it was.

There have been exceptions to THAT rule too (Rick Rudes AWA tag team title reign, Ric Flairs NWA title) but its rare.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Punks not going to play the game as much as some. He's never had a problem voicing his opinion. And if you don't do it WWE and Vince's way up there you are screwed. Its a testament to Punks talent that he's lasted as long as he did and gone as far as he did.

I read an interview where he said he was never "concerned about losing (his) spot" in WWE and that he often chose sleep over going out with "the boys" in the locker room. He marches to his own drummer. I have all the respect in the world for that but it runs contrary to the old-school wrestling mentality. That might have cost Punk a little but he obviously doesn't care.

 

[Nemi]

Yup...according too Nell Sting must be part of the IWC too...believing in all the conspiracies? Doesn't matter than he's met McMahon face to face and been workign in the business for over 25 years.




Sin Cara is a bit different because WWE desperately wants to grow in the Hispanic market. They need a representative. Its th same reason Khali still has a job despite sucking like a hoover vacuum cleaner.

But its hard to say what will happen long term.

Kharma is a sideshow attraction and Vince being the pure CARNIE eccentric that he is loves freakshows. In a lot of ways thats what WWE has been over the years. A carnie show or freakshow. Its part of his blood. He sees Kharma and instantly sees a special attraction. Remember Vince's strength was ALWAYS taking performers from other promotions and making them stars. While Kong achieved some fame outside of WWE Vince doesn't really consider TNA as major competition right now so that may cause him to make an exception.

But thats no guarantee that she will always be treated well and used right long term: look at Big Van Vader after a few years in WWF. In the end he could tear her down after he's gotten all he can out of her.
If she had been a star that was competition for WWE he may not have tried to use her as good for as long. Right now he sees someone he can take to a higher level with the WWE promotional machine, which is true.

But as far as WWE is concerned everything she did before WWE doesn't matter no matter how good it was.

There have been exceptions to THAT rule too (Rick Rudes AWA tag team title reign, Ric Flairs NWA title) but its rare.

Good points. At the moment they are both proof of what WWE can do when they get some talent and then don't shoot themselves in the foot.

I read an interview where he said he was never "concerned about losing (his) spot" in WWE and that he often chose sleep over going out with "the boys" in the locker room. He marches to his own drummer. I have all the respect in the world for that but it runs contrary to the old-school wrestling mentality. That might have cost Punk a little but he obviously doesn't care.

Punk is interesting like that. It seems like he's just happy to be there though that doesn't mean he's not gonna work as hard as he can. I think for him it might be less about being in the main event or being champion as it is about still being CM Punk and not WWE clone 283483484.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Punks not going to play the game as much as some. He's never had a problem voicing his opinion. And if you don't do it WWE and Vince's way up there you are screwed. Its a testament to Punks talent that he's lasted as long as he did and gone as far as he did.

Anybody who crosses Vince or critisizes the company or doesn't play the game risks a responds. Its like when Austin critisized creative and then walked out. WWE immediatly went into propoganda mode trying to paint Austin in a bad light in any way they could. Some of it was deserved but some of it wasn't...but he got it despite being arguably the bisggest star in WWE history.

We've all seen what McMahon does when he doesn't get his way or people don't follow his rules. Piper got a pink slip for voicing his opinions on steriods.

But Nell would tell you ALL that is part fo the IWC conspiracy

Go work for ANY company, publicly badmouth them and criticize them, and see how long you last.

But no, of course Vince McMahon is just some evil dictator...

 

[Wheels]

So what exactly was lager than life about Bret Hart? He was just a guy who went out there and wrestled. Yet he was a big star in WWF, and was the guy for a little while. There were guys who were more larger than life, but Vince picked Hart to be the guy after Hogan left.

Nell, your reasoning is flawed.

 

[PyroChamber]

After watching Smackdown, I think it would suck if they have it to where it was Cole who brought Kharma into the WWE just so she could destroy the Divas for him.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

So what exactly was lager than life about Bret Hart? He was just a guy who went out there and wrestled. Yet he was a big star in WWF, and was the guy for a little while. There were guys who were more larger than life, but Vince picked Hart to be the guy after Hogan left.

Nell, your reasoning is flawed.

How is my reasoning flawed when you picked out ONE guy who doesn't fit the "larger than life" mold, when just about every other BIG star in WWE has, in one way or another?

 

[Wheels]

How is my reasoning flawed when you picked out ONE guy who doesn't fit the "larger than life" mold, when just about every other BIG star in WWE has, in one way or another?

How about this, for months Vince pushed a guy who is void of charisma and has okay ring skills. That man's name is Drew McItyer. He shoved this guy down are throats, gave him a long undefeated streak, and tried everything to get him over. He's not larger than life, he's one of the most boring guys on the roster, and was booked strong. Vince pushes who he likes, it doesn't matter if you're lager than life or useless.

 

[The Sage]

Don't even get me started on that. It was innovative in 1998 with Vinny Mac vs. SCSA. Everthing since then has been a steady descent. I'd be overjoyed if WWE and TNA scapped all on-air authority figures. Wrestling made it for decades without them and it would improve without them now.

I agree and disagree. On-air authority figures can work if they're kept out of storylines. Or maybe just off screen with references, like "We just heard from the office guys that based on what just transpired in the ring, we're gonna 'Insert match' tonight as the main event."

 

[Metallo]

How is my reasoning flawed when you picked out ONE guy who doesn't fit the "larger than life" mold, when just about every other BIG star in WWE has, in one way or another?

Chris Benoit wasn't a bold splashy cartoon character either. Neither was Bruno Sammartino. Neither was Bob Backlund. They all proved you could ALSO make your mark as a great wrestler and you didn't have to be made in the same cookie cutter WWF mold of "gaga at the expense of in ring talent"

It is about being a great and interesting character but people CAN get by with other things if they are good enough.

The Ultimate Warrior is the flaw in the opposite end of the spectrum.

He was HUGELY popular character. A hell of a lot more over than that goof the Miz. At his peak Warrior was probably more popular than Cena on on a level with Hogan. But the Warrior DIDN'T LAST. IF what you say is true why couldn't he sustain it?

Warrior couldn't bring it in the ring and his 2 minute matches just didn't cut it in the long run. Character is probably THE most important thing but if a guy can't wrestle worth a sh** or work eventually the audience won't buy into him.

Go work for ANY company, publicly badmouth them and criticize them, and see how long you last.

But no, of course Vince McMahon is just some evil dictator...

Most other companies would never ALLOW the stuff McMahon has in the past or they certainly wouldn't make things WORSE for themselves by screwing up in public and causing a PR nightmare. When Vince McMahon PHYSICALLY threatens a reporter what the hell would you call it?

When Vince McMahon publicly goads the government what would you call it? He's a egotist who thinks he can get his way because he lives in a bubble where nobody keeps him in check.

When your guys are dropping like flies from steroid related deaths I'd say its pretty f***in STUPID to fire a guy like Piper for speaking out. It only added fuel to the fire. And just to set you straight Nell Piper never really admitted WWE was SPECIFICALLY at fault. He mostly talked about promoters in general. So how was be badmouthing the company?

A SMART business would have tried to address the issue from a PR standpoint because by that time there was NO WAY WWE could deny the problem of steroids and recreational drug use in wrestling. Everybody knew it and now people were dying because of drug use. Vince almost went to prison ten years before because of steroid allegations.

Evey other sports league took action YEARS before WWE did and WWE only did because they were FORCED to. The Wellness program should have been in place by 2004. THATS what a smart company would have done but Vinnie Mac thinks he can bully anyone and still tries to halfass run his publicly traded company like some yokel outfit from the 20's in a lot of ways.

Independent contractors? You know thats bullsh**.



Bret Hart said wrestlers were treated like circus animals for years but thats just part of the conspiracy right?

Owen Hart, since you didn't do this affair storyline with Debra we (WWF) are going to force (PUNISH) you to to wear this stupid Blue Blazer outfit in a desperate attempt to make fun of Hogan and WCW in a childish spiteful way.

We aren't going to let you out of your contract to join your brother. Whats that? No, you can't quit because you just bought this huge brand new house for your family that you still have to pay off. Well you gotta stay and work for us while we hang you 70 feet from the ceiling of arenas for no good reason except our own personal amusement at making fun of WCW. People love you for just being you, Owen? We don't give a sh** about that just go our there and do it.

Its all part of an IWC conspiracy though.

 

[Metallo]

After watching Smackdown, I think it would suck if they have it to where it was Cole who brought Kharma into the WWE just so she could destroy the Divas for him.

I pray they don't do that. Since Cole is one of Vince's new favorite pet projects it would be Vince once again letting his ego get in the way of good business. Making this new star a pawn of his own creation, Michael Cole.

Kharma doesn't need Coles "go away" heat and doesn't need to be overshadowed by him. She's more than interesting enough to stand on her own

How about this, for months Vince pushed a guy who is void of charisma and has okay ring skills. That man's name is Drew McItyer. He shoved this guy down are throats, gave him a long undefeated streak, and tried everything to get him over. He's not larger than life, he's one of the most boring guys on the roster, and was booked strong. Vince pushes who he likes, it doesn't matter if you're lager than life or useless.

Its all backstage politics and a** kissing and about a look now. Not talent

These days a guy has to look like an underwear model to get pushed and the office has to like him personally. Doesn't matter how talented they are. WWE has tried to push so many untalented slabs of beef. They tried like hell to push Orton for years, who IS talented, but had a ton of problems and it took a while to really get him over the way they wanted him. He's getting the push not just because of his talent but because of his abs and his generic haircut.

Gone are the days of individual CHARACTERS. Nell always talks about characters but he fails to realize distinct characters are a dying breed in WWE. All the wrestlers are becoming interchangeable cogs in the machine and thats because its not as much about character anymore but its more about the brand as a whole.

Thats all thanks to Stephanie, Johnny Ace, and Kevin Dunne and their growing influence over the past 20 years because they want WWE to be a tv show and not a wrestling show. Its no coincidence the word "wrestling" is being phased out.

Its the same reason they don't want Jim Ross on the air. He's not aesthetically pleasing enough because he's an old fat guy with Bells Palsy who talks with a southern accent. Vince has tried to embarrass him and de emphasize him in every way possible over the years.

Cornettes said it, Prichards said it, Kevin Kellys said it. Of course Nell would say its just a conspiracy theory made up by the IWC. Even though Jim Ross had alluded to it himself its all a IWC conspiracy right Nell?

 

[strikezone89]

Heck Yes! Just bought my MITB PPV tix

 

[Lunar_Wolf]

Lucky bastard!

Just read the review of TNA. Seems like everyweek, the heel/babyface is switched up. Dreamer is a heel now? Ugh. Who are you meant to root for when people are switching sides every week.

 

[Nemi]

Lucky bastard!

Just read the review of TNA. Seems like everyweek, the heel/babyface is switched up. Dreamer is a heel now? Ugh. Who are you meant to root for when people are switching sides every week.

Forget characters and entertainment, and forget wrestling too. With TNA...it's all about the twist.

(this is the part where I'd put up a picture of M. Night but you know what.....**** that guy)

 

[The Sage]

Forget characters and entertainment, and forget wrestling too. With TNA...it's all about the twist.

(this is the part where I'd put up a picture of M. Night but you know what.....**** that guy)

Wow thinking about it...Vince Russo's the M. Night of wrestling.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Wow thinking about it...Vince Russo's the M. Night of wrestling.

The next twists:

Mickie James will be rescued by a giant bird.

Jeff Hardy has actually been dead the whole time.

Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff have been living in a secret village that still thinks it's 1997.

 

[Dr. Evil]

The Great Khali's time in the WWE is probably going to end soon, especially if the WWE decides to groom Jinder Mahal as the "we will promote our company to India" guy despite the fact that Jinder is actually from Canada (although he is of Indian descent).

 

[Metallo]

Wow thinking about it...Vince Russo's the M. Night of wrestling.

For that to be true Russo would had to have done something GOOD at one point

Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff have been living in a secret village that still thinks it's 1997.

In Hogans case more like 1987.

The Great Khali's time in the WWE is probably going to end soon, especially if the WWE decides to groom Jinder Mahal as the "we will promote our company to India" guy despite the fact that Jinder is actually from Canada (although he is of Indian descent).

I was thinking the same thing. They may well be grooming this new guy to take Khali's place. WWE isn't going to let the fact that he was born in Canada and not India stop them. Thats still a lot better than that Italian guy named "Muhammad Hassan."

Its wrestling so most of the foriegn bad guys aren't from the countries the claim to hail from. I'm shocked The Iron Sheik was actually Iranian.