X-Men Illustrator Dave Cockrum Dead....With a Twist

[04nbod]

i doubt he new he was gonna die then and there- he just seemed like a genuine comic lover despite all the stupid rivalries that have grew. i respect him very much and thank him for his work on my favourite comic. i hope he rests in peace.

 

[Dew k. Mosi]

I have Spider-Man jammies and a Spidey Bedspread

 

[ShadowBoxing]

i doubt he new he was gonna die then and there- he just seemed like a genuine comic lover despite all the stupid rivalries that have grew. i respect him very much and thank him for his work on my favourite comic. i hope he rests in peace.

He knew, trust me...he knew. Everyone who saw him at that convention knew.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Their X-Men got cancelled after 60 [66] issues. Cockrum and Claremonts revitalization in the 1970s went bimonthly for a time, and then got so popular it started 3 spinoffs (initially) and continued into the ninties. To accredit Jack Kirby and Stan Lee with making the X-Men popular is rather absurd, since their incarnation failed in competition with the Avengers, Fantastic and Spider-Man as a flagship title.

You're such an argumentative little cub. It's amusing. You're telling me about comicbook history, forgetting that I was THERE for more of it than you were.
If you read my post, I didn't say word one about them making it "popular". I just said that they invented the concept, so if you like Cyclops, Jean Grey, The Beast, Ice Man and Angel, you have to give them some "cool" credits for the notion of those mutants being mentored by Xavier, 'cause there wouldn't've been any X-Men to re-vamp if not for Kirby/Lee.

Ronny said the X-Men would suck if not for Cockrum and Claremont, but I prefer old comics, so I disagree.
It's not Jack Kirby's fault that he was too far ahead of his time and that the world had to catch up to his genius.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Ronny said the X-Men would suck if not for Cockrum and Claremont, but I prefer old comics, so I disagree.
It's not Jack Kirby's fault that he was too far ahead of his time and that the world had to catch up to his genius.

You do realize during Lee and Kirby's that

Ironically, the cast of this comic book series, which would in decades hence become a vehicle for stories about prejudice and racism, was originally racially and ethnically homogeneous, seemingly comprised entirely of the WASP-type character that was the de facto model for most comic book heroes at that time.

The only time they hinted at the racism angle was during that Bolivar Trask 3 issue stint where he accused mutants of being dangerous on television. However the Sentinel project was not Government related, it was the pursuit of a madman.

Claremont, and then later Morrison (and by de fault anyone in between) were the first to play up the racism angle. Claremont invented the term "muties", the morlocks, and made Senator Kelly the politician with an axe to grind against mutants. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby never really approached the whole race angle, I think for fear of being to controversial. Stan Lee will certainly claim "I created a group hated and feared by the world around them", but he didn't. In fact several panels of the old Lee Kirby run feature mutants being love and fawned by the general public. One features a construction worker saying "I know you, you're Cyclops of the X-Men" with incredible happiness. They were intended at his time to be analogous to angsty teenagers, since the powers manifest at puberty.

Oh, and the origins of all five X-Men were accreditted to other writers.

And no Stan Lee did not make Magneto a jew either.

In his early appearances, Magneto is simply portrayed as an evil supervillain bent on taking over the world.

In X-Men Classics #12, Bryne and Claremont finally told that he was a victim of Nazi persecution. And also wrote stories about his falling out with Xavier and how they were simply men with two different philosophies. Hell Lee's Magneto was dead by issue 12.

The comics, and movies today attempt to condense the story to make it seem like racism was always a part of the book. It wasn't. Claremont was really the first one to ever tie mass hatred and distrust to mutants. The first major story to do so was Uncanny X-Men 141 (Days of the Future Past) which revealed that mutants would be put in concentration camps if mutant hatred were to continue (as spurred by Kelly's assassination).

Cockrum can probably be given some credit as well since he showed Nightcrawler being attacked by an angry mob, and coaxed Storm into joining the X-Men with a speech that talked about how "cruel" the real world was.

 

[DV8]

HA! pretty funny shyt . . . but if you were in a rock band, you wouldn't necessarily wear a t-shirt of your rock band's all the time!! that would be narcissistic, or Cock-ish, but not Cock-rum-ish; DA-DUM-CSSSSSH!

 

[Darthphere]

Oh God, not this again.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Oh God, not this again.

But you know it's true. The whole Xavier is MLK and Magento is Malcom X, and mutants are hated by society. Lee did not do ANY of that.

Here is Lee's example of mutant hatred.

Angel is swamped by girls.
"Hey look [girls] it's Angel"
"Hold him, I want an autograph"
"Autograph nothing, I want a kiss MMMMMMMMMMMMM"

Cyclops "That's the end of the Sentinels, MANKIND can breathe easy once more". It's important to note the Sentinels were also attacking humans and the police helped the X-Men without question.

Post Sentinels "Since Iceman is a patient, have you managed to thaw him out and discover his true identity" (The Press were under the impression they were mutant superheroes like everyone else)

Xavier: Not all mutants want to help the human race, some feel mutants are the true rulers of earth. (Never does Xavier suggest humans fear mutants, in fact he suggests instead the mutants have a superiority complex).

Man (After seeing him display his mutant ability): Say you're Cyclops, Aren't you. One of the X-Men. Never thought you jokers (mutants) were for real. Put it there, pal.

There was also no mutant prejudice. Mutants could participate in everyday life, unimpeded.

Granted if you want to say he created jungle (mutant) fever, maybe...

 

[Darthphere]

Actually I dont know its true, because I disagree completely. But since everything has said about this subject once I dont wish to get into it again.


http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247673&page=5

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Actually I dont know its true, because I disagree completely. But since everything has said about this subject once I dont wish to get into it again.

Well I argued Morrison was the first to make it a good analogy. This is an entirely different argument. And I do cede that actually several people laid the groundwork and did make several racism references before Morrison (Claremont in the eighties most notably....I assume he could have earlier...but the Phoenix Saga was kind of it's own thing).

But to argue Stan Lee made it racism is absurd, they were LOVED by the general public as X-Men for christ sakes. Did you not read any of those quotes. The general stationed there after Trask's first appearance complemented them. Then reporters came and tried to interview them and flatter them for saving the world. They were treated like the Avengers.

 

[Darthphere]

Thats fine, its your opinion. But it just seems to me that youre trying to downplay the contribution of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby which was brought up. regardless of how you feel about what they wrote or how they wrote, they came up with those characters. Without them, there wouldnt have been a Claremont,Wein, Byrne, Morrison run on X-Men, because they wouldnt have existed. And frankly, I saw no one bring up the race issue, you did.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Thats fine, its your opinion. But it just seems to me that youre trying to downplay the contribution of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby which was brought up. regardless of how you feel about what they wrote or how they wrote, they came up with those characters. Without them, there wouldnt have been a Claremont,Wein, Byrne, Morrison run on X-Men, because they wouldnt have existed. And frankly, I saw no one bring up the race issue, you did.

Wilhelm said "they were too far ahead of their time" which I took to mean "they addressed racism".

Yes you are right, they probably would've never done anything with Wolverine (or the others they created) if X-Men were not created. That is pretty much a given I guess. However I do think Stan Lee is overrated in the fact that every character he creates is tied directly back to him in their current incarnations. Like people will watch X-Men and think...wow Stan created all that. Mutants=Blacks, Latino's, Gays and Handicapped Civil Rights and Discrimination...that's genius. When in fact all the other writers who built upon it actually created most of those elements.

Like people reading DareDevil who think the character is "genius" will accredit Stan Lee with that...when in actuality everything that is current about that book comes from Frank Miller.

As I say, I think far too often Lee is give credit where credit is not due.

 

[Darthphere]

Well a blind superhero was not something that wide spread and was considered new and creative (im fully aware of the other blind superheroes that came before). But Daredevil was the first that really made an impact.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Well a blind superhero was not something that wide spread and was considered new and creative (im fully aware of the other blind superheroes that came before). But Daredevil was the first that really made an impact.

Okay fair...but you see Stan Lee may have created that...but Frank Miller is the one who made the impact. Because as you've noted in the past (on other threads), DareDevil when Stan Lee wrote him was considered a "inferior Spider-Man knockoff".

 

[ShadowBoxing]

But as I said, there are some places where Stan Lee deserves full credit. Like the Fantastic Four and Spider-Man. Two characters who he not only created, but set a precedent for and essentially made them the characters we recognize today. With those characters he created and made the impact.

But a lot of his other great creations were severely lacking and did not become what we know them as until others came along.

 

[Ben Urich]

Stan Lee deserves full credit on all of his creations, not just on Fantastic Four and Spider-Man.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

Uh, except for, how, like, they were invented by the 2 people most responsible for comicbooks being cool, Stan Lee and the greatest genius of all, Jack Kirby. yeah.

Indeed.Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created the X-Men,but this was in the 1960`s.Only older,or more knowlageable fans would know this really.The 3 men who re-defined the X-Men in modern times would be Chris Claremont,John Byrne and Dave Cockrum.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Indeed.Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created the X-Men,but this was in the 1960`s.Only older,or more knowlageable fans would know this really.The 3 men who re-defined the X-Men in modern times would be Chris Claremont,John Byrne and Dave Cockrum.

Here is an interesting fact I just stumbled upon. During Roy Thomas's run Mutant Hatred is first addressed...The first issue Neal Adams draws uses the word "mutie" (I figured this was a later creation) and says outrightly "humans hate mutants" (paraphrased) according to Trask's son and an associate. There is also a Federal Bureau of Mutant affairs behind the Sentinels...which now hunt exclusively mutants for being mutants.

Here is where it gets interesting: The issue right before Neal Adams first joins has a police officer saying "I never thought I'd see the day I had to arrest an X-Man (mutant) for murder (a crime)". Suggesting the police do not see the mutants as menaces (and he doesn't end up arresting him BTW). The very next issues two cops attempt to arrest Iceman and Beast for nothing.

The issue right after Neal Adams leaves ressaurects the old theme that humans don't hate mutants and the X-Men merely combat and control evil mutants (as said by Professor Xavier).

This means that Neal Adams actually is more than likely the one who made it about race. However what I found incredibly interesting is that the issue is never again addressed. In fact issue 66 the X-Men again are not seen as menaces, the cops even question why they appear to be helping the Hulk (who they see as a menace).

Hmmmmm, another instance where an artist appears to be the "writer". This actually makes a good deal of sense considering Neal Adams run with Denny O'Neil on the socially conscious Green Lantern/Green Arrow.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Indeed.Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created the X-Men,but this was in the 1960`s.Only older,or more knowlageable fans would know this really.The 3 men who re-defined the X-Men in modern times would be Chris Claremont,John Byrne and Dave Cockrum.

Yes, also, the sky is blue on sunny days.


You know what? I really liked Dave Cockrum 'cause he was old school.
He didn't make every character's head smaller than their foot, he didn't have them all grimacing and gnashing their teeth 24/7, I'm pretty sure Anime wasn't a huge influence for him, and there wasn't a foot wide gap between the inner thighs of his females, where you can see their buttocks from the front.

This thread is about DC finally dying, it's sad, and I hope he's in a better place, a place uninfested with pedantic little gnats roaming around spouting meaningless facts.

Sorry, just as with Rock and Roll, I'm not on the "socially conscious" bandwagon when it comes to my escapist comicbook entertainment.
I couldn't care less if Bryan Singer thinks the X-Men are "important" 'cause he sees parallels with his experience as a homosexual, and I don't need comicbooks to preach to this choir that racism is stupid and wrong.
I also have little interest in the ethnic background of Magneto (beyond that heart-breaking scene at the begining of the first X-Men movie).

I like comicbook art and nothing on Earth will ever match the genius of Jack Kirby, N.O.T.H.I.N.G.
So if some ignorant kid says that the X-Men would've been a miasma of suck if it weren't for DC and CC, I'll say, "wrong". I sat and tried to mimic reprints of the old Kirby X-Men books for I don't know how long. I didn't do the same with anyone else who has ever worked on the book or one of it's 5,000 profit-seeking spin-offs.
I defy anyone to name me one major player in the history of Marvel/DC comics who doesn't idolize (or at least respect, as a "peer" ) Jack Kirby.
Everyone from Keith Giffen, John Byrne, Frank Miller, Walt Simonson, Neal Adams, Mike Mignola, to the doofs of today knows that he was the preeminent GOD who single-handedly gave us comics as they should be (unless it's some underground, hoighty-toighty Lesbian thing or R.Crumb/Spain/Rob't.Williams type thing)

And Dave Cockrum brought me many hours of cool enjoyment when I was little so, instead of arguing and continuing to Kirby-Zombify, I'll say, without a Ronny Shadish need to tear anyone else down, or a Shadowdancingly need to ignore one's own wrongness by pretending he didn't hear the original point.......Thanks Dave Cockrum...dark times ahead as all of you real comicbook artists die off.

Also, this shouldn't be solely an "X-Men" thing. Some of the coolest stuff he did was on Legion of Superheroes.

 

[Darthphere]

I mentioned LOSH Wilhelm, do I get a cookie?

 

[Mr Sparkle]

stop fighting guys!
poor dave cockrum is rolling over in his grave!

"cockrum".......*chuckles*

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I mentioned LOSH Wilhelm, do I get a cookie?

Have a snifter of Cockrum.




and, Shadow Lass was hawt.