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The Flash ZOOM! (Possible season 2 spoilers)

Okay, here's how I think it breaks down:

As confirmed by Andrew Kreisberg, Zoom is Hunter Zolomon, a.k.a "Jay Garrick," meaning the person Team Flash has known as Jay since this season's first episode has been manipulating them the whole time.

The Jay Garrick who was killed by Zoom? That, I believe, was Hunter Zolomon of Earth-1, who's been in cahoots with Zoom the whole time and also pretended to be Jay Garrick whenever necessary. Such as when the STAR labsters tested Jay to see if he had traces of the Speed Force to back up his story about having lost his powers it to Zoom. Or when "Jay" showed Caitlin his Earth-1 counterpart at the park bench. Or whenever he was injected to take Velocity-6, 7, 8, and 9. To paraphrase a certain Christopher Nolan movie, the trick is where Zoom and Earth-1 Hunter would swap.

However, we also know that there is a real Jay Garrick who is The Flash on Earth-2 as confirmed by Harry and the flashback on Earth-2 in which Harry unveiled the metahuman detector. Moreover, Earth-2 Jay had the yellow lightning Speed Force effect just like Barry does, and whenever "Jay" took one of the Velocity serums, he also had the yellow lightning Speed Force effect. Therefore, Jay Garrick and Hunter Zolomon must share the same face.

Which leads to the theory that the real Jay Garrick is also the man in the iron mask. And not just because he taps out "J-A-Y" or that careful examination of him shows he has a similar traits to the actor who plays "Jay"/Zoom, but also because Zoom has him in a similar cage like he did Barry, which seems designed to hold speedsters.

So either, I think, we're dealing with one of two options:

a. Jay Garrick and Hunter Zolomon being identical twins on Earth-2 but on Earth-1. Or

b. When Jay was hit by his Earth's particle accelerator explosion, it not only gave him super speed, it split his personality a la Jekyll and Hyde. Remember, Jay didn't get his speed powers the same way Barry did; Barry was struck by lightning and flew into some chemicals when the accelerator exploded, while Jay was experimenting with Heavy Water when the accelerator on his earth exploded. The reason Jay wasn't able to catch Zoom is because he was literally chasing himself. Once he discovered the truth, Jay's injected himself with Velocity-6 in an attempt to "kill" Zoom, but instead it's reaction to the Speed Force made them physically two separate people. Which would also explain why "Jay" warned Barry not to use Velocity-6 because he knew the effect it would have on those who already have access to the Speed Force. This would also explain why Zoom is attempting to absorb the Flash's speed and is dying: because having separated himself from Jay, he's physically unstable, and the Speed Force is the only thing literally holding him together.



^That theory is really good.

I'm just wondering why it is that the real Jay (if he is the man in the mask) can't phase through the glass prison like Barry did? Maybe Zoom took his speed, but i'm leaning more towards the man in the msk being Eddie Thawne, who survived thanks to Earth 2's advanced technology and has been working with Earth 2's Flash, hence why he asked for Jay via the code.

If anyone has a screenshot of the shot where they show the man in the masks hair, it's obviously light blonde ala Eddie Thawne's, as opposed to being dirty blonde/brown like Jay Garrick's.
 
Those comments from Kreisberg regarding Zoom are contradictory not only to the show, but also to another set of comments he gave to another website.

Do mean when Kreisberg told TV line:

“I don’t think you can assume anything that Jay has said to the team or the audience is the full truth. It is a version of the truth,”

Also, if you mean the comments he made about Zoom being Hunter Zolomon, aka Jay Garrick...not if the theory that "Jay" since episode 1 of this season has been both Zoom and Hunter Zolomon (Jay Garrick's Earth-1 doppleganger) taking turns pretending to be Jay holds any water.

And consider this: if "Jay" has been Zoom the whole time, and if he arrived on Earth-1 right around the same time as the breaches appeared, he's had four months of research on Earth-1 by his own admission to team Flash, more than enough time to track down Hunter Zolomon on Earth-1 and get him on his side, and plenty of time to research team Flash to better manipulate them.


^That theory is really good.

I'm just wondering why it is that the real Jay (if he is the man in the mask) can't phase through the glass prison like Barry did? Maybe Zoom took his speed, but i'm leaning more towards the man in the msk being Eddie Thawne, who survived thanks to Earth 2's advanced technology and has been working with Earth 2's Flash, hence why he asked for Jay via the code.

If anyone has a screenshot of the shot where they show the man in the masks hair, it's obviously light blonde ala Eddie Thawne's, as opposed to being dirty blonde/brown like Jay Garrick's.

Well, if the man the iron mask is really Jay, his being unable to phase through his glass prison could be one of two things:

a) as you said, Jay's speed powers could've have been drastically reduced and/or weakened by Zoom. After all, Zoom feeds on Speed Force energy, which explains why he'd still keep Jay alive because he needs a constant "food" source.

b) perhaps the glass for the man in the iron mask's prison is also made of a different frequency different than that of Earth-2. Maybe it's a glass made on Earth-1. After all, Zoom has been going back and forth between Earth-1 and 2 for several months, enough time for him to gather materials to make the man in the iron mask's cell.

c) maybe the mask itself is made from a special dense metal alloy which prevents him from using his speed to phase through solid objects.
 
Kreisberg's comments about Zoom being the Jay we've gotten to know since Episode 2 of the season are what I was referring to as being contradictory to the comments he gave to TV Line. Those comments are also what I was referring to as being contradictory to the show.

Therefore, any theory based upon said "Zoom is the Jay we've come to know" comments kind of falls apart because it's based on things that don't actually make sense.
 
Okay, here's how I think it breaks down:

As confirmed by Andrew Kreisberg, Zoom is Hunter Zolomon, a.k.a "Jay Garrick," meaning the person Team Flash has known as Jay since this season's first episode has been manipulating them the whole time.

The Jay Garrick who was killed by Zoom? That, I believe, was Hunter Zolomon of Earth-1, who's been in cahoots with Zoom the whole time and also pretended to be Jay Garrick whenever necessary. Such as when the STAR labsters tested Jay to see if he had traces of the Speed Force to back up his story about having lost his powers it to Zoom. Or when "Jay" showed Caitlin his Earth-1 counterpart at the park bench. Or whenever he was injected with Velocity-6, 7, 8, and 9. To paraphrase a certain Christopher Nolan movie, the trick is where Zoom and Earth-1 Hunter would swap.

However, we also know that there is a real Jay Garrick who is The Flash on Earth-2 as confirmed by Harry and the flashback on Earth-2 in which Harry unveiled the metahuman detector. Moreover, Earth-2 Jay had the yellow lightning Speed Force effect just like Barry does, and whenever "Jay" took one of the Velocity serums, he also had the yellow lightning Speed Force effect. Therefore, Jay Garrick and Hunter Zolomon must share the same face.

Which leads to the theory that the real Jay Garrick is also the man in the iron mask. And not just because he taps out "J-A-Y" or that careful examination of him shows he has a similar traits to the actor who plays "Jay"/Zoom, but also because Zoom has him in a similar cage like he did Barry, which seems designed to hold speedsters.

So either, I think, we're dealing with one of two options:

a. Jay Garrick and Hunter Zolomon being identical twins on Earth-2 but on Earth-1. Or

b. When Jay was hit by his Earth's particle accelerator explosion, it not only gave him super speed, it split his personality a la Jekyll and Hyde. Remember, Jay didn't get his speed powers the same way Barry did; Barry was struck by lightning and flew into some chemicals when the accelerator exploded, while Jay was experimenting with Heavy Water when the accelerator on his earth exploded. The reason Jay wasn't able to catch Zoom is because he was literally chasing himself. Once he discovered the truth, Jay's injected himself with Velocity-6 in an attempt to "kill" Zoom, but instead it's reaction to the Speed Force made them physically two separate people. Which would also explain why "Jay" warned Barry not to use Velocity-6 because he knew the effect it would have on those who already have access to the Speed Force. This would also explain why Zoom is attempting to absorb the Flash's speed and is dying: because having separated himself from Jay, he's physically unstable, and the Speed Force is the only thing literally holding him together.
I believe your the closet to it next to my self and a few others.

and what you said about the meta human detection scanner is also a good point. Notice that (fake Jay) that's been claiming to have been jay to the star labs doesn't have a meta human detector?


ok let;s look at the details when he came and Barry locked him up
the star labs team said they tested him. but couldn't prove he was a speedster. then he said he lost his power being put through the breach.



after the star labs decided to give him the benefit of the doubt cause some of what he said with sand demon was around was accurate. they let him out he taught barry the lighting bolt trick which he him self wasn't ever able to pull off. and it was an ability though cool was overly lethal . (sorta well it's more then this , it is suspicious )

and they found that jay's powers were connected to him, he has to have that war helmet of his, which has wings . that may have been the reason they had at starlabs all along due to what Eobard had Barry do with a trip to the past for Barry to save his mom.


so it looks the reason he lost his power was due to the helment. but he never got his powers back that way when the helmets returned. and he said he lost his powers coming here. which made some of the fan base think speedster's loose their power coming to a new earth.

B
ut weirdly some of the audience thought you had to be a speedster to be able traverse the breach's.

but there's more , since the events of earth 2 wells came o earth one Jay and him went at it a bit verbally. Jay in Jay jona Jameson and wolverine style manner of complaint saying not to trust earth well's. After earth 2 Dr.wells saved Barry by freezing parts of king shark and patty her first meta human arrest.

Jay disappeared mostly over his fit over the star labs team also trusting earth 2 wells along with Jay himself . which jay didn't like. to where though?
this is after the dr. light linda park event

after that I've have seen others discussed this week there must be others on earth 2 that must have known Jay in his normal life , when he's not the flash. Like co-workers or family.


Sadly Jay himself hasn't said he has family to the starlabs team he has said he is a scientist and he does know science. also he said he was testing water samples when the accelerator even of earth 2 happened and he got his powers.

after that with dr.light and Linda Park event. Barry faced off with zoom showing that he can have his own powers work in the earth one reality. which threw out that idea speedster from earth 2 loose their powers by coming earth one and staying here. just like when earth 2 D.r. well's came and save Barry killed the idea that only speedster,or people traveling through the breach's have to have speedster with them cause the speedster has to be using their powers going through the breach. but Earth 2 Dr. wells didn't need such a thing. so two idea's are dead about speedster losing their power going through the breachs between reality's of earth 1 - 2 and you can only be a speedster to travel through the breach's.


when Jay explained his story that he was fight zoom for 2 years'. he then stated Zoom took his powers.

but he wasn't sure how ?and then he was sent earth one , as he claim the second time around .


now after dr. wells started to work on the velocity serums they decided to call Jay and he went nuts again with his don't trust earth 2 dr .well's rant . and made it feel like earth 2 drwell 's created the first serum the first time and pushed it to Jay. but this was the first time earth 2 Dr.wells has attempted to make the serums and he's more of a tech genius then a geneticist or biologist, which is why Caitlin was helping him .


jay continued his blow out and stormed off to where ever he lives on earth one currently. Earth2 dr.well's says he has to run errands for them to make a better plan. after that he catch's patty's attention (something that should have happened to Malcolm merlyn in season 3 with his insane asinine strolls through star city Repeated visits to thea in the club)


Patty fallowed earth 2 dr. well's to star labs and shoot him the only person that can save earth 2 dr. wells is Jay via the viscosity 6 serum Jay's so against and overly project his anger on earth 2dr. wells for it. he uses' save 's earth 2 dr. well's and still does his don't trust wells thing again and leave's in huff.




Jay get's called back again cause Caitlin has been working on other versions of the serum and want's to find his earth one counter part, to look at that one DNA and see if they can restore earth 2 jay this way. jay say's he has something to show her.


he take's her to the park and we see his count part and he say's the reason he was hard to find was this one on earth was adopted by the zolomons and his first and last name were changesd and his name now hunter Zolomon and to not bother cause thiscounter part supposedly was never mutated DNA wise.

Again I have to point to the meta human scanner. the only one from earth 2 with the device was dr.wells. but every one else from earth 2 has one, with the exception of Jay who claims to be from there.

How did he test for earth one Hunter zolomons DNA? other normal doctor's probably don't have it in their file.



And it would mean he'd have had to approach hunter him self but he said for Caitlin not to bother cause hunter doesn't have the meta Gene. but how did Jay him self who through out this season we never seen him with a meta human scanner know Hunter Zolomon of earth 1 doesn't have the meta human Gene?



The only other way would be via a blood sample like when Barry took samples (with out their permission) from both Hewitt and Jackson to help save professor stein.


Jay him can't do what Barry did cause his powers are off. After he told Caitlin that the reason lost his powers after two false claim's that he lost his powers coming through the breach and saying Zoom stole fit from him befor breach , after saying it was when Jay came through the breach .

and he told her that day it was cause of the velocity 6 serum . and then he saying not to speak to earth one zolomon cause he doesn't have the meta gene for the cure.


Ok Jay or should I say (Fake jay). . how do you know absolutely for sure that hunter Zolomon of earth one doesn't have the meta Gene with out the meta human scanner which we've never seen on you once?

And also with out a blood sample? if you have a blood sample where is it? why are you so insistent earth one zolomon doesn't have the meta gene ? you have to have ether of those things.



some how I doubt he got close enough to hunter without hunter noticing (fake) Jay who didn't want Caitlin in the park to speak to hunter, "now that he was in front of her in the park .

she could have had Jay hide, if that was an issue. But he said hunter doesn't have the meta gene. how does jay know this? no device no blood sample just Jay (I'm still calling him fake) speaking long haul that he should be the only every one listens to alone .


all after three conflicting descriptions on how Jay(fake Jay) him self lost his powers , two of which were lies before the truththat same day he showed her hunter zolomon. but he said not to approach the latter. cause he was sure the metagene isn't in earth 1 hunter zolomon DNA.

But Jay(fake Jay) never explains how he knows it's not in earth one hunter Zolomon Gene's?


there's also that weirdness with how Geo mancer found him in labs after he told the other he needed to rest. Geo mancer attacks and the only thing significantly damaged is the speed cannon At star labs which Jay spent all day supposedly fixing before his second show down with Geo mancer before he was tired out.




ok one other thing , when jay did his blow up with velocity 6 ddiscovery , earth 2 dr.well said and he only said it once that jay (fake jay)is hiding something him self and jay stories about how he lost his speed and then saying not to approach earth one hunter zolomon, " he doesn't have the meta gene."


You lied with the power loss then there no evidence about the meta Gene in hunter zolomon other then your word.

then Andrew Kresberg said 3 time's that the jay that had been with the star Labs crew was misleading them all with half truths and is posing as Jay.
 
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I just read the last 15 pages of this thread in about an hour or so...
My head hurts!!!
 
I like the twin theory that's going around, where there are two Jay's (brothers) on each Earth. The man in the mask is the twin brother of Jay Garrick (Earth 2's Flash) - who is now dead, hence why the man in the mask is terrified. Zoom is the twin brother of Hunter Zolomon (or maybe he is Hunter) and the guy he showed Caityn on the park bench is his Earth 1 twin.

So Zoom is from Earth 1, and the guy he showed Caitlyn is his twin
 
I don't like the twin theory. I would prefer that the real Jay Garrick doesn't look like Sears at all, or that there is another explanation involving future/past selves or from another multi verse. Why resort to twins (which is the explanation non-sci-fi shows can use all the time, particularly soap operas) when there are other explanations provided for by the Flash's world)?
 
See the whole time travel, multi-verse, clone theories are too sci-fi-ish, which makes them the logical go to on a sci-fi show. I'd like to think the show runners would imploy the Occam's razor theory, where the simpliest answer is the correct one..but that its so simple, nobody would think it would be used. If you have a twin brother or sister on earth 1, then it's logical that you would also have twins on every other earth…
 
But the twin theory is the logical go to on every other show, which makes it far too cliched. It also seems a bit of a cop out, as if they couldn't think of any other explanation but instead had to go with the tired formula. And that's hardly the satisfying ending everyone would want that the writers promised.

I don't think having Jay Garrick actually look like someone else would be too sci-fi or too complicated. If you wanted to employ Occam's razor, then that would in fact be the simplest answer. Zoom is the murdered "Jay's" doppleganger, and the man in the iron mask has a different face altogether. Or he's not even Jay.
 
Exactly. It's a total cliche and, as you say, a cop out. Producing an evil twin from somewhere is about the laziest thing a writer can do (although I realise that I'm being a tad hypocritical as I effectively wanted Zoom to be a Henry Allen evil twin).
 
The more i think about it the more i'm disappointed by Zooms reveal. Most ppl saw it coming. It would have been more WTF if it was another Barry, Eddie or …Patty!
 
I don't think most people saw it coming. Some people might have guessed it, but people guessed literally every character we've seen in the show, haha.
 
This is my first post. But I had a sneaky suspicious that Zoom was going to be Earth2's Henry Allen (John Wesley Shipp) and we'd see Barry in a moral dilemma having to fight his own (alternate earth) father, or something like that.

The Twin theory and such isn't really working for me yet, although I'll give the show the benefit of that doubt since they've done a great job so far of keeping my interest!
 
This is my first post. But I had a sneaky suspicious that Zoom was going to be Earth2's Henry Allen (John Wesley Shipp) and we'd see Barry in a moral dilemma having to fight his own (alternate earth) father, or something like that.

Welcome to the hype. What you've just described is how I hoped it would play out but alas, it wasn't to be........

The Twin theory and such isn't really working for me yet, although I'll give the show the benefit of that doubt since they've done a great job so far of keeping my interest!

I feel much the same way, although I cant deny that I'm bummed about where they've gone as it does seem a bit of a contrived cliché. Not going to stop me from watching though.
 
Here's my issue with a lot of the scientific responses - It's the CW.

Look at how they made Wells the reverse flash last season - literally it was a "face changing mask" from the future.

Simple - stupid - and really detracted from Wells being the reverse flash, but gave them the ability to make Wells look like a good guy.

Now, we were made to look like "fools" for not putting together that Jay Garrick was Hunter Zolomon aka Zoom when they clearly threw that out right in our face, but nobody wanted to believe Jay was bad.

Based on the comments made, it sounds like they wanted people to believe Jay was bad, by announcing his name was Hunter Zolomon but nobody bought into it, which in my eyes means they have to have a way of redeeming Jay, since right now he appears to be a bad guy.

Now, we know that Wells and Jay don't get along - Jay doesn't trust wells, but Wells doesn't seem to have the same distrust for Jay, referenced by his drive to get Jay's speed back.

Now - when I go look at Cobalt Blue's story line-
Within the context of the stories, Malcolm Thawne is the twin brother of Barry Allen and an ancestor of Allen's archenemy Professor Eobard "Professor Zoom" Thawne. At the time of their birth, the doctor delivering them had already accidentally killed the child of Charlene Thawne during delivery. To cover his mistake, the doctor gave one of the twins to the Thawnes as their own and told the Allens that their second son had been stillborn.
Raised by the Thawnes as a con artist, Malcolm learns of his brother by accident as an adult. He learns the full story by confronting his "parents" and the doctor who delivered him, killing the latter in a rage. His grandmother, seeing true potential in his passion, teaches him the family secret of controlling the "blue flame". Eventually he crafts a blue gem to contain the flame. The creation is fueled by his rage and jealousy of his twin "stealing his life" and can siphon off the Flash's superspeed

Does that not fit this story line perfect? Just with different character names.
 
I would like to add my own crazy theory. The man in the iron mask is the real Earth 2 Jay Garrick. In gaining his powers, he made two speed force doubles, a good one in the Flash and an evil one in Zoom. The Jay we've been seeing was drained of speed and dying because he was cut off from the source of his power in original Jay. Zoom has been stealing all the power for himself, which is why he's so OP and why he thinks stealing our Barry's speed is even a legitimate idea. Earth 1 Hunter Zolomon is just some dude.

Not that I think that's what's going on, but just to add my own crazy theory.
 
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For all the people saying Earth 2 Henry is Zoom, didn't Earth 2 Barry's mom say that the two of them were in Atlantis together?
 
Yup.

The prospect of Henry Allen being Zoom is pretty much dead [sadly], although as miniscule part of me hopes that we are being deliberately led down the Jay garden-path in order for the makers to totally pull the rug out from under us.
 
I kinda wish Zoom's identity was never revealed, as Zoom he is badass, a proper scary villain. As Jay/Hunter, I don't really like the character, his motivation and his cunning just disapates into nothing more than a whining psychopath, they should have just kept him masked and his true identity hidden.
 
At *some* point he has to be unmasked. There's only so far you can go with Zoom being a faceless monster who just does arbitrary evil. Eventually you need some characterization for him, else he transitions from being a villain to being just kind of an obstacle, like a sentient natural disaster.
 
At *some* point he has to be unmasked. There's only so far you can go with Zoom being a faceless monster who just does arbitrary evil. Eventually you need some characterization for him, else he transitions from being a villain to being just kind of an obstacle, like a sentient natural disaster.

I don't necessarily agree, some villains thrive on their identity being unknown and maybe even unimportant, for example knowing who a villain like the Joker actually is only detracts from the character, I think this version of Zoom just being a force of nature could've been a nice change from Thawne.
 
They could've made Zoom like Gollum. He was once a man but lost his soul and became something else.
 
Is there any significance to Zoom's eye becoming black?
 

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