🇰🇵 The North Korea Thread

[Sithborg]

Honestly, I think more props are needed to be given to South Korea for opening up direct communication than anyone in the Trump Administration.

 

[ComicBookNerd]

Honestly, I think more props are needed to be given to South Korea for opening up direct communication than anyone in the Trump Administration.

True, especially after the previous government was dispelled over corruption not too long ago.

 

[herakles]

Very good news. Legitimate question. How much credit does the current administration get for this? I know they will take the credit but I honestly can’t name one change in policy that has been enacted beyond the president calling people names.

As much as they want cause it appears that calling people names works better than giving money? Little by little it appears that Trump is getting things done. I just wish someone would take his phone away.

 

[samsnee]

I'm trying to be unbiased as possible but I really don't see a cause and effect. Conservatives are already saying he deserves a Nobel Peace Prize, but again, what did he do exactly besides tweet?

 

[ComicBookNerd]

I'm trying to be unbiased as possible but I really don't see a cause and effect. Conservatives are already saying he deserves a Nobel Peace Prize, but again, what did he do exactly besides tweet?

Sending Pompeo to meet Kim Jong Un was a major step in USA/DPRK relations. Until then, the United States refused to have direct communications between high ranking officials. I have to give Trump some credit for this one. Just wish he would do the same with Iran.

 

[Sithborg]

And the only reason North Korea has had this as even a possibility is because they destroyed their testing site.

I am also quite certain the Trump isn't going to realize just what concessions we are going to have make.

 

[Doug_Moore]

To follow up on samsnee's question:

[YT]ALTICesGsws[/YT]

Straight from the source. President Moon gives President Trump big credit for help making this happen.

 

[Sithborg]

Like we haven't seen other leaders praise Trump in order to manipulate him?

 

[MaceB]

Well, at this point, it's looking really positive. It's hard to say how much is due to President Trump and how much is due to South Korean Leader Moon Jae-in... on top of the purported rumors of North Korean nuclear factory problems. But however it's come to be, we shouldn't be cynical about this and try to isolate the kudos. Trump has earned a Kudos on this. He listened to experts, and he pushed for harder sanctions passed by congress. His administration reached out to China on a personal level, to try and exert more influence. Those are good things.

That being said, it's not over yet. At this moment, it may seem like we've gotten a lot, but we really haven't. There are positive moves, but we don't know exactly what it's leading to. We need verification of sites, period. The North Korean regime has reneged on nearly every commitment that they've ever been a part of... at least with us. Trusting them on their word is a step, but we should insist on accountability.

At this moment, Kim Jong-Un has everything to gain from these talks. North Korea is poor; there is much support that we can give them, and he could end his nuclear program like his father did... only to bring it back later. He knows this... so our ultimate goal should be to get North Korea back into the international fold; talking with South Korea, disarming from the border, actually ending the war on the peninsula, denuclearization, and humanitarian rights. That's a big ask, so I hope we don't give up too much for too little.

 

[Aximili86]

So, assuming this pans out (it more than likely won't, but if it does), Ol' Trumpie's basically gotta get awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, right?

That'd be oh-so-deliciously hilarious.

 

[terry78]

The cynic says they join forces and decide to take over the planet.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Xi's secret meetup with Kim a week or so ago and the failed nuclear test that also more than likely killed the majority of their nuclear scientist had much more to do with this new face the regime has put than anything Trump did or said.

 

[Aximili86]

That's certainly the way this'll get spun, yeah.

Doesn't hold much weight when Obama's former acting CIA chief is saying the opposite though. The Trump blowhard stuff played a part in this.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Those who keep saying we should lay this at Trump's feet have yet to give me or anyone the mechanism that makes sense. Angry tweets didn't accomplish this. So what other than that did he do? What was actually negotiated? What concessions were made?

Granted, it's early, we don't know the details yet but what will people say if it turns out that you can't find a logical thread that can lead back to any actions Trump directly took as president? Because the influence of China and the fact that the N. Koreans development site and key members of their weapons team went kablooey... That we can see.

 

[Aximili86]

No negotions were made, no concessions were made, that's sort of the whole goddamn point. Pressure, these guys respond to pressure. They feel the pinch financially, they're being squeezed from both sides by the west and China alike, they start looking for other options.

That's not to say this'll all work out, you wouldn't trust this tubby little bastard as far as you could throw him. But the dynamics have changed from what they've been under the last 3 presidents, he starts feeling the pressure, his generals aren't getting their cash cow stuff anymore and he starts worrying about his own power stability. It's enough to make a guy assess his options.

And like it or not, Donald *****e started us down that road with his aggressive Drunk Uncle schtick. Even a jackass like him finds success now and again.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

No negotions were made, no concessions were made, that's sort of the whole goddamn point. Pressure, these guys respond to pressure. They feel the pinch financially, they're being squeezed from both sides by the west and China alike, they start looking for other options.

That's not to say this'll all work out, you wouldn't trust this tubby little bastard as far as you could throw him. But the dynamics have changed from what they've been under the last 3 presidents, he starts feeling the pressure, his generals aren't getting their cash cow stuff anymore and he starts worrying about his own power stability. It's enough to make a guy assess his options.

And like it or not, Donald *****e started us down that road with his aggressive Drunk Uncle schtick. Even a jackass like him finds success now and again.

You didn't answer my question. What "pressures" exactly? Would said "pressure" had worked without the destruction of their program? If not then you have to point more to that event than any actions taken by the administration.

And if you are pointing to sanctions, etc., well... I'm sorry but don't the right wingers usually pooh-pooh sanctions as too limp wristed?

 

[Aximili86]

What pressure, are you kidding? The sanctions vice has been tightened, China's been co-operating to an extent (not as much as they should, but they've been doing more, and that was achieved by the Orange *****e). We've had a couple aircraft carriers parked off their shore and talks of "fire and fury" and all kinds of obnoxious saber-rattling ****.

That's...new, whether you agree with it or not. That's pressure, that's "new sheriff in town" posturing, that's a signal that the status quo isn't continuing and Kim has some serious thinking to do.

Now, of course this isn't all on Trump. NK's come right up to the line of what they can get away with in terms of missile tests and temper tantrums, and Japan and even the new liberal-leaning SK guy were taking a harder stance on it. That's a big factor too.

But to just plain write off "Trump hasn't done anything here, **** that guy" is a falsehood. He's a part of this. Through both the childish tweeting bull**** and through the more concrete means, which are an actual thing. Ignoring these tightening of sanctions on Korea and pursuit of international solidarity on it is willful ignorance. He's done stuff. You can hate the guy and acknowledge he's upped the ante on them, they're not mutually exclusive.

 

[MaceB]

The most likely thing, IMO, is that Kim sees this as a unique opportunity. With Obama or W. even, all negotiations would by the book, and mostly done by teams, rather than just one or two leaders. This frustrates Kim, who doesn't operate like this in his own country, so why should he do it here? And how can he get any big concessions when he has to account for this accord or that treaty? Jeeze.

But then here comes Trump... a guy who insists on doing the deals himself. An elderly man, who sometimes seems overly anxious to make deals, and doesn't really seem to care about all the old conventions. From Kim's perspective, I could see him going, "if I'm ever gonna get most of what I want, it's probably with this guy."

Add to that, a high level of sanctions, not to mention pressure from China, and yikes...even a serious explosion that happened recently... well, darn it, maybe it's time.

But even if Trump falls into this success by accident... and his incompetence may be the biggest cause more than anything... I'd say we should still give him credit for that. He offered to change up the table. And to a certain extent, he's done that. It's a shame, of course, because stick out your chest theatrics isn't a reliable foreign policy stance by any measure. It can't be duplicated, and it's more likely to fail than to succeed.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

The most likely thing, IMO, is that Kim sees this as a unique opportunity. With Obama or W. even, all negotiations would by the book, and mostly done by teams, rather than just one or two leaders. This frustrates Kim, who doesn't operate like this in his own country, so why should he do it here? And how can he get any big concessions when he has to account for this accord or that treaty? Jeeze.

But then here comes Trump... a guy who insists on doing the deals himself. An elderly man, who sometimes seems overly anxious to make deals, and doesn't really seem to care about all the old conventions. From Kim's perspective, I could see him going, "if I'm ever gonna get most of what I want, it's probably with this guy."

Add to that, a high level of sanctions, not to mention pressure from China, and yikes...even a serious explosion that happened recently... well, darn it, maybe it's time.

But even if Trump falls into this success by accident... and his incompetence may be the biggest cause more than anything... I'd say we should still give him credit for that. He offered to change up the table. And to a certain extent, he's done that. It's a shame, of course, because stick out your chest theatrics isn't a reliable foreign policy stance by any measure. It can't be duplicated, and it's more likely to fail than to succeed.

This is why at this time I don't give a lot of credit given what we know to Trump or his people. They seemed to more luck into a circumstance than anything. True, they took advantage of said circumstance but so far we see they didn't have anything to do with making the event that started all this happen in the first place.

It's early days yet as well. By any measure going by the public record of both men we are dealing with two very capricious individuals with thin skins. Acting like the smallest thing couldn't scuttle this is being naive to the history of these two men.

 

[Aximili86]

The most likely thing, IMO, is that Kim sees this as a unique opportunity. With Obama or W. even, all negotiations would by the book, and mostly done by teams, rather than just one or two leaders. This frustrates Kim, who doesn't operate like this in his own country, so why should he do it here? And how can he get any big concessions when he has to account for this accord or that treaty? Jeeze.

But then here comes Trump... a guy who insists on doing the deals himself. An elderly man, who sometimes seems overly anxious to make deals, and doesn't really seem to care about all the old conventions. From Kim's perspective, I could see him going, "if I'm ever gonna get most of what I want, it's probably with this guy."

Add to that, a high level of sanctions, not to mention pressure from China, and yikes...even a serious explosion that happened recently... well, darn it, maybe it's time.

But even if Trump falls into this success by accident... and his incompetence may be the biggest cause more than anything... I'd say we should still give him credit for that. He offered to change up the table. And to a certain extent, he's done that. It's a shame, of course, because stick out your chest theatrics isn't a reliable foreign policy stance by any measure. It can't be duplicated, and it's more likely to fail than to succeed.

Bingo. Trump's not some strategic mastermind who'd thought it all through and knew it'd work, but damn if his approach hasn't paid dividends all the same. You don't just ignore that, more's happened in a year on this than has in 20 under the last 3 guys.

Whether it all actually pans out, you have to be skeptical on. But Kim even putting on a facade of playing nice and meeting the South Korean in person on SK soil is big in and of itself.

 

[Doug_Moore]

So, assuming this pans out (it more than likely won't, but if it does), Ol' Trumpie's basically gotta get awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, right?

If he does, at least he earned it by calling North Korea's bluff unlike the previous President who got it just for replacing Bush.

Also: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34277960

 

[Sithborg]

Nah, they are likely to give it too President Moon. Especially since he was the pro-peace guy from the beginning.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

If he does, at least he earned it by calling North Korea's bluff unlike the previous President who got it just for replacing Bush.

Also: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34277960

Uh... huh...

As if Kim wasn't already aware that regardless of who was president that a first strike against the US or its allies would result in the vaporizing of Pyongyang. Seriously that didn't suddenly become a thing once Trump was elected.

 

[ComicBookNerd]

If people don’t give Trump credit for this, then they just come off as haters (the same way Republicans came off as haters for never giving Obama credit for anything). Fact is that the Trump administration has done greater diplomatic work with North Korea than any administration since they got nukes. This is probably the 1st time I could give props to the Trump administration for doing something good.

 

[MaceB]

If people don’t give Trump credit for this, then they just come off as haters (the same way Republicans came off as haters for never giving Obama credit for anything). Fact is that the Trump administration has done greater diplomatic work with North Korea than any administration since they got nukes. This is probably the 1st time I could give props to the Trump administration for doing something good.

The Trump administration has experienced more short term success in North Korea than any administration since they got the nukes. As for the great diplomatic work... I suspect that he kind of fell into it, honestly.

This is where it gets tricky. They've hollowed out the State Department. The head of the CIA was acting as SOS, because the acting SOS was fired before a replacement could come in. They fired several of the top Korean experts on the ambassador staff. And yes... Trump has had success... but like others have said, it's just a really big pill to swallow that "yay, his bluster sure is working!" Because that feels like the only factor that's different here... the Trump personality. That's hard to really clap for. It's like a quarterback accidentally throwing it straight to opposite side in their red zone. Am I happy that my team scored? Hell Yeah! But it didn't really show any talent that I can clap for per say. My team didn't earn that touchdown...even though I'm happy they got it.

Yes, yes though... all that being said, Trump does get a slow clap for this one. At this moment, I'm glad that we are where we are, and I'll just leave it at that.