12 killed in Colorado shooting at Dark Knight Rises premiere - Part 2

[Kelly]

Yea, we'd also probably cut back on drunk drivers if we outlawed cars as well...

That is a stupid comparison.....and has been refuted several times on this thread and others on gun control.

 

[Darthphere]

No, it is not the same logic.

If you take away the rights of citizens to own guns, then they no longer have access to guns for sport or self defense. The only people who have access to guns are the criminals who would obtain them illegally anyways, meanwhile the rights of responsible citizens have been infringed upon.

By removing stop lights, that removes all order from street intersections, and it will be chaos because nobody will know when to be able to cross, as well as completely backing up traffic.

Legal guns in the hands of responsible gun owners does not create chaos.

No stop lights or road laws does create chaos on the road ways.

But nobody in this thread is calling for that!\

Making it harder to buy a gun is not the same thing at all.

 

[Anita18]

There is also no good reason to buy 6000 rounds of ammo in a short time span. Either you are the worst hunter in the world or you're up to no good.

 

[8Diagrams(WU)]

You're making a lot of personal assumptions. I get that you're angry and probably still in shock or something but you don't know what is clear and what isn't.

What? this is a community board dude. We can talk about whatever we want. No one needs your permision to have an opinion try and make sense of all that is presented so far.

 

[8Diagrams(WU)]

There is also no good reason to buy 6000 rounds of ammo in a short time span. Either you are the worst hunter in the world or you're up to no good.

What Im most curious about is why the FBI didnt pick up on these purchases. I mean this wasnt just a little bit. I understand he got them delivered to two separate locations but still.

Another thing Im curious about is where Holmes would have gone after the shootings. The apartment would have been toast. The thing was planned well enough that he probably would have thought of a place to go to afterwards.

Now this notebook thing is also something that we should think about. When was this sent? Friday right before the shootings? Does anyone know?

 

[The Guard]

I got here late...has anyone suggested just maybe banning civilian-owned assault rifles?

Why does a civilian need an assault rifle?

I know criminals can get illegal weapons, but this guy got his legally, did he not? Seems most of them do.

 

[Paroxysm]

What? this is a community board dude. We can talk about whatever we want. No one needs your permision to try and make sense of all that is presented so far.

No one said you couldn't and where did I say you need my permission?

You're allowed to assume what you want.

I just disagree with you.

 

[Kelly]

You're making a lot of personal assumptions. I get that you're angry and probably still in shock or something but you don't know what is clear and what isn't.

That's the impression I get.

What? this is a community board dude. We can talk about whatever we want. No one needs your permision to have an opinion try and make sense of all that is presented so far.

Many mass murderers like this guy, do things like this.... profilers call it "leakage"....

It could be to make sure that he does get credit, and it could be a cry for help....both are possibilities....

 

[8Diagrams(WU)]

I got here late...has anyone suggested just maybe banning civilian-owned assault rifles?

Why does a civilian need an assault rifle?

I know criminals can get illegal weapons, but this guy got his legally, did he not? Seems most of them do.

Yeah it is absolutely sickening that all the supplies he obtained were legal. Im sure there are background checks and whatnot but this system clearly cannot tolerate or simply disregard the odd cases. The dude built an arsenal and did not break any laws doing it!

If he had gone to the black market, he wouldn't have been able to afford that much either.

 

[StrainedEyes]

Yeah it is absolutely sickening that all the supplies he obtained were legal. Im sure there are background checks and whatnot but this system clearly cannot tolerate or simply disregard the odd cases. The dude built an arsenal and did not break any laws doing it!

If he had gone to the black market, he wouldn't have been able to afford that much either.

I'm willing to bet that the number of people who have their own personal arsenals would scare the **** out of you.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Yeah it is absolutely sickening that all the supplies he obtained were legal. Im sure there are background checks and whatnot but this system clearly cannot tolerate or simply disregard the odd cases. The dude built an arsenal and did not break any laws doing it!

If he had gone to the black market, he wouldn't have been able to afford that much either.

They are saying he received over 50 different packages to obtain his arsenal. That is a whole lot of small, individual purchases for the FBI or any law enforcement agency to track. While not the same type of things as Holmes, there are plenty of people that easily do that kind of frequent ordering. Plus it was over 2+ months, which makes it seem even less suspicious.

 

[8Diagrams(WU)]

I'm willing to bet that the number of people who have their own personal arsenals would scare the **** out of you.

Sure would bud. It would be interesting to see an educated estimate somewhere but the people that stock up an arsenal are not going to discuss it easily unfortunately.

They are saying he received over 50 different packages to obtain his arsenal. That is a whole lot of small, individual purchases for the FBI or any law enforcement agency to track. While not the same type of things as Holmes, there are plenty of people that easily do that kind of frequent ordering. Plus it was over 2+ months, which makes it seem even less suspicious.

Hmm interesting and troubling because that means theres others that could potentially be exploiting this fault as well. I always thought there would have been some sort of database for this kind of thing.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I got here late...has anyone suggested just maybe banning civilian-owned assault rifles?

Why does a civilian need an assault rifle?

I know criminals can get illegal weapons, but this guy got his legally, did he not? Seems most of them do.

Most people buy AR-type weapons for target shooting, which for many is a hobby. The ones they are buying, technically, aren't assault rifles; they're assault weapons due to them not being capable of automatic or selective fire.

 

[Shemtov]

The Thing about gun control laws is that, well, people like Holmes could get their hands guns through the black market anyway. I mean, people can still obtain Weed in America, can they not?
And keeping them legal is better, because if somebody does something like this and gets away.....You can simply look at who has this kind of ammo and voila., you have a suspect list.

 

[terry78]

Well, that is normally how you keep from looking suspicious. You buy a massive amount of the same thing but spread it out and in smaller quantities until you got it all.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Hmm interesting and troubling because that means theres others that could potentially be exploiting this fault as well. I always thought there would have been some sort of database for this kind of thing.

It's not really a fault; it's more a symptom of the US typically having a robust and mostly unencumbered marketplace. Why would there need to be a database of packages being shipped? I just think it'd be nearly impossible for the government to track every package and parcel being shipped due to the shear volume of it and the amount of manpower and computers needed to do it.

 

[8Diagrams(WU)]

It's not really a fault; it's more a symptom of the US typically having a robust and mostly unencumbered marketplace. Why would there need to be a database of packages being shipped? I just think it'd be nearly impossible for the government to track every package and parcel being shipped due to the shear volume of it and the amount of manpower and computers needed to do it.

Ohh no sorry my bad I wasnt being clear. Im talking about a database for sensitive materials like ammo and firearms, etc. The goverment definitely needs visibility over that.

 

[mrvlknight21]

Plenty of criminals currently get illegally obtained weapons. Banning weapons is not going to stop criminals from getting weapons. Last I checked, a criminal didn't decide against doing something because it was illegal.

Steve McNair was killed by an illegally gotten weapon.

This is true.

As for someone breaking in, well if you're practicing proper gun safety. What are the odds you'd get the gun out of the lockbox and loaded before, what a smart criminal would do, the criminal rushes straight to your bedroom and disarms and/or shoots you?

Practicing proper gun safety does not necessarily mean that your guns stay in a lock box or safe as soon as you get home. For the exact reason that you mentioned, I carry 24/7. I have mentioned this several times. My firearm is in a safe place in its holster in my possession.

There is also no good reason to buy 6000 rounds of ammo in a short time span. Either you are the worst hunter in the world or you're up to no good.

Sure there is. I personally know several people (all law abiding citizens and some law enforcement) that purchase in bulk for the cost savings. For them, its the same as buying in bulk at Sam's Club or Costco. They know they will use it, why not get a lot at the best price they can?
They shoot at the range weekly (some of them are competition shooters) and can go through 1,000 rounds per week fairly easily.
For many of my personal friends, 6,000 total rounds would be LIGHT.

 

[Kelly]

The Thing about gun control laws is that, well, people like Holmes could get their hands guns through the black market anyway. I mean, people can still obtain Weed in America, can they not?
And keeping them legal is better, because if somebody does something like this and gets away.....You can simply look at who has this kind of ammo and voila., you have a suspect list.

Well, a hand gun is better than what he was using....not that it couldn't have killed people, but not 70 and 12 dead...before someone could have taken him down.

 

[Atom Ant]

"A hero can be anyone. Even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy's shoulders to let him know that the world hadn't ended."

 

[Shemtov]

Well, a hand gun is better than what he was using....not that it couldn't have killed people, but not 70 and 12 dead...before someone could have taken him down.

If he had really wanted it, he would have gotten it thru the black market.

 

[8Diagrams(WU)]

Well, a hand gun is better than what he was using....not that it couldn't have killed people, but not 70 and 12 dead...before someone could have taken him down.

Exactly thats just it. Well said. It is true people can get a weapon through the black market. But the fact its a black market ads to the degree of difficulty obtaining it and certainly reduces the quantity of material that can be obtained. Not to mention that the nature of a black market requires for the items to be far more expensive due to the risky and illegal nature of the business. You make holmes go through the black market, the likelihood of the extent of his actions is greatly reduced.

 

[Matt Mortem]

This gun law debate reminds me of something one of my teachers used to say: "Locks keep honest people honest". If someone wants to commit a massacre, no amount of outlawing firearms is going to stop that. What can be done is better regulations on them. Guns are far too easy to obtain. It's far too easy for someone to amass an arsenal legally without raising a single eyebrow. If you outlaw guns completely, the crazies will find another way. They always do.

 

[Kelly]

If he had really wanted it, he would have gotten it thru the black market.

Possibly, he also could have found it in an alley, someone could have given it to him.......BUT....maybe not, and maybe he couldn't have afforded it through the black market, maybe it would have taken longer....there is a whole range of possibilities....but until we ban this type of gun...BEFORE PEOPLE SCREAM......NOT ALL GUNS, just those that put out this kind of fire power....we won't know what the impact will be, will we? So, sorry but I'm really tired of hearing that excuse....it doesn't fly.

 

[Kelly]

This gun law debate reminds me of something one of my teachers used to say: "Locks keep honest people honest". If someone wants to commit a massacre, no amount of outlawing firearms is going to stop that. What can be done is better regulations on them. Guns are far too easy to obtain. It's far too easy for someone to amass an arsenal legally without raising a single eyebrow. If you outlaw guns completely, the crazies will find another way. They always do.

I don't think anyone on this thread has said, outlaw guns completely....and yes, there should be a better system to follow what people purchase, and how much when it comes to weapons like this....you bet, that is definitely a start.