The Last Jedi A Dark Side Rey theory

[MagnarTheGreat]

Watch Scrawl with Daisy Ridley I guess?

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Clearly. -_- *Looks at the stack of EU books on the shelf next to me.*

Darth Zannah alone is reason enough to have a primary character who is a female sith/dark jedi. And if you are so afraid of having Rey be an "evil" character in the films, you're the one that doesn't understand the lore. They need to explore the dark side in the films in a way that doesn't demonize it anyway. If they never do, they are making a huge mistake.



None of this makes any sense, "seen through my ridiculous attempt." What, like I'm trying to keep something a secret?



Why on earth am I supposed to take your response seriously when your incomplete sentences make your point incomprehensible.

Let me spell it out easily for you. Your premise is clearly wrong. There are female villains in Star Wars, in the TFA. There are Force Sensitive female villains in the Star Wars canon. It is not something sorely missed or needed, especially in the canon stories created since the Disney purchase.

I don't fear Rey being a villain. I just understand how ridiculous the idea is considering the first. Where JJ made it clear. The Force awakens in two people. Rey and Kylo. The light and the dark. Rey represents the light side of the Force in the new trilogy. Her being evil goes against that.

And yes, it is obvious. I am sick of all this BS reasoning for why we need to ditch the female lead hero. It isn't interesting, it isn't a good idea, and yes the majority of it springs from sexism.

By the way, JJ and those involved with the actual canon realize that there is no redemption in the Dark Side. It is evil. It isn't called the Dark Side because it can be made good. That half baked stuff that came in the later novels with Jacen and other stuff won't be making an appearance in canon, and rightly so. There is no redeeming qualities in the Dark Side. You don't bring balance to the Force by enriching the Dark. It chews up people and spits them out. This has always been the canon out look. It is why it physically manifest itself the way it does. Vader had to turn away from the Dark Side to achieve redemption and to become one with the Force.

For someone preaching this stuff, you seemed to miss how Kylo Ren's character situation emphasizes that. He loses strength when he kills Han because he feels sympathy, regret, sadness. As Lor San Tekka told him, "you cannot deny the truth, that is your family". In Kylo's attempt to, he loses himself and thus power. The way to change this? He must complete his training and thus give himself over to the Dark Side fully, and thus getting rid of all that is good about him.

There is nothing good about the Dark Side. It is not demonized, it is simply evil, devoid of anything good.

 

[Marvolo]

Considering Asajj has existed in the comics and books more than just Clone Wars viewers know who she is.

But all this is entirely irrelevent. The reason Rey wont be going Dark Side is because Anakin did it, and then Ben did it. Having the good character go dark for a third time would be not only repetitive but ridiculous. Also, there would no doubt be blow back and people would be claiming that Lucasfilm and Disney dont think a woman can be strong without being a ***** and they will claim Disney is being a dick to a strong female character.

I dont think she will go dark side anymore than I think Ben will be redeemed. We've already watched a hero fall and a villain be redeemed. They aren't going to repeat that ****.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

yeah... was trying to avoid the semantics so I over estimated.

1 or 2/10,000. And I mean, you're talking only the US. Worldwide, maybe far more. Or, respectively, far less. But even that being said, its very few.

And ontop of that, Rey has been an actual character since December (4 months) and already drastically more people likely know who she is. Ventress has existed for 13 years. Daisy is an amazing actress and could easily show the necessary range to pull this off. Her capable shoulders could bear it.

The Clone Wars is on Netflix, and trends quite often. But it is okay. I mean, it isn't like Ahsoka has a fan base in the millions either. Star Wars being so niche and all.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Considering Asajj has existed in the comics and books more than just Clone Wars viewers know who she is.

But all this is entirely irrelevent. The reason Rey wont be going Dark Side is because Anakin did it, and then Ben did it. Having the good guy go dark for a third time would be not only repetitive but ridiculous. Also, there would no doubt be blow back and people would be claiming that Lucasfilm and Disney dont think a woman can be strong without being a ***** and they will claim Disney isbeing a dick to a strong female character.

I dont think she will go dark side anymore than I think Ben will be redeemed. Weve already watched a hero fall and a villain be redeemed. They aren't going to repeat that ****.

JJ emphasized that we would see the "creation" of our villain. One who grows stronger over the trilogy, as opposed to Vader who started out a fully formed boss.

The Force Awakens is about two characters. Rey and Kylo. The light and dark. Each will be taking their journey through the trilogy on a crash course.

 

[Marvolo]

JJ emphasized that we would see the "creation" of our villain. One who grows stronger over the trilogy, as opposed to Vader who started out a fully formed boss.

The Force Awakens is about two characters. Rey and Kylo. The light and dark. Each will be taking their journey through the trilogy on a crash course.

I wonder if Rey and Kylo will face off again in VIII or if they will save that for IX?

 

[Loki882]

I kind of like the idea of them facing off in every film, as they both progress in their arcs, and having this back and forth "you hurt me, I hurt you" dynamic continue. It'd certainly be different than what we got before.

Also I'd LOVE to see an awesome female Sith/DS-user appear in the films, all for it. I just don't think that turning Rey into one is a good idea.

 

[Slade W]

If they fight again in the next movie, Kylo should get the better of Rey to make it look like the villains cannot be beaten, with Rey, of course, getting her heroic, "against all odds" victory over Kylo in the final movie like the hero always does.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I wonder if Rey and Kylo will face off again in VIII or if they will save that for IX?

I am thinking it is possible, though perhaps this is where the other Knights of Ren will come in, and Kylo will finally get his fight with his uncle.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I kind of like the idea of them facing off in every film, as they both progress in their arcs, and having this back and forth "you hurt me, I hurt you" dynamic continue. It'd certainly be different than what we got before.

Also I'd LOVE to see an awesome female Sith/DS-user appear in the films, all for it. I just don't think that turning Rey into one is a good idea.

Love it.

 

[O_B_Juan]

What if Rey gets cocky after getting some training from Luke? Maybe Luke warns her about the temptations of the dark side and she's like, "What do you know old man? You ain't never seen a jedi like me before. I can handle the dark side." But she can't. And because of her arrogance, she somehow lets Luke get killed and then has to redeem herself from there.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

What if Rey gets cocky after getting some training from Luke? Maybe Luke warns her about the temptations of the dark side and she's like, "What do you know old man? You ain't never seen a jedi like me before. I can handle the dark side." But she can't. And because of her arrogance, she somehow lets Luke get killed and then has to redeem herself from there.

And you got this from her character so far how exactly?

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Let me spell it out easily for you. Your premise is clearly wrong. There are female villains in Star Wars, in the TFA. There are Force Sensitive female villains in the Star Wars canon. It is not something sorely missed or needed, especially in the canon stories created since the Disney purchase.

I don't fear Rey being a villain. I just understand how ridiculous the idea is considering the first. Where JJ made it clear. The Force awakens in two people. Rey and Kylo. The light and the dark. Rey represents the light side of the Force in the new trilogy. Her being evil goes against that.

And yes, it is obvious. I am sick of all this BS reasoning for why we need to ditch the female lead hero. It isn't interesting, it isn't a good idea, and yes the majority of it springs from sexism.

By the way, JJ and those involved with the actual canon realize that there is no redemption in the Dark Side. It is evil. It isn't called the Dark Side because it can be made good. That half baked stuff that came in the later novels with Jacen and other stuff won't be making an appearance in canon, and rightly so. There is no redeeming qualities in the Dark Side. You don't bring balance to the Force by enriching the Dark. It chews up people and spits them out. This has always been the canon out look. It is why it physically manifest itself the way it does. Vader had to turn away from the Dark Side to achieve redemption and to become one with the Force.

For someone preaching this stuff, you seemed to miss how Kylo Ren's character situation emphasizes that. He loses strength when he kills Han because he feels sympathy, regret, sadness. As Lor San Tekka told him, "you cannot deny the truth, that is your family". In Kylo's attempt to, he loses himself and thus power. The way to change this? He must complete his training and thus give himself over to the Dark Side fully, and thus getting rid of all that is good about him.

There is nothing good about the Dark Side. It is not demonized, it is simply evil, devoid of anything good.

THE DARK SIDE IS NOT SIMPLY EVIL. For someone preaching that they are the foremost loremaster of Star Wars mythology, you should at least know that.

And the light side is not inherently good. Ahsoka's/Qui Gon's and eventually Obi Wan's distrust of the Jedi Order is the only info you need to know that.

Man, you'd think people analyzing these things this in depth would understand the nuance of good and evil. And that it's our experiences and the people in our lives that make us who we are. No one is completely good or completely evil. And that's what's phenomenal about Star Wars.

If we have to agree to disagree on that, fine. But don't claim you know best because you've interpreted certain non-canon as half-baked and other non-canon as fully-baked.

I kind of like the idea of them facing off in every film, as they both progress in their arcs, and having this back and forth "you hurt me, I hurt you" dynamic continue. It'd certainly be different than what we got before.

Also I'd LOVE to see an awesome female Sith/DS-user appear in the films, all for it. I just don't think that turning Rey into one is a good idea.

"You hurt me, I hurt you" is exactly what we got before. Battle of Yavin > Battle of Hoth, Rescue of Leia > Freezing Han. That's the nature of an ESB-style ending and that's completely fine. That's what we'll get no matter whether Rey turns dark, stays light, or whatever. It's the ramifications of that that could be shifted and twisted and spun on their head.

Anyway, this is all just speculation. I definitely don't think it will happen, just that this early in the game, it's something that they could make happen. And I think it'd be just as worthwhile a path to take as any other "I'm your father"-style twist that they could take.

Everyone has already freely admitted Ben will likely struggle deeply with his redemption. And if Ben and Rey are so clearly linked in this series, it only makes sense for her to mirror his struggle. If he is redeemed by the end, I'm gonna take a wild shot in the dark and say she will take the equal and opposite route. But again, i'm aware it's a long shot.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Watch Scrawl with Daisy Ridley I guess?

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

This looks very interesting. I'll definitely be checking it out.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

THE DARK SIDE IS NOT SIMPLY EVIL. For someone preaching that they are the foremost loremaster of Star Wars mythology, you should at least know that.

And the light side is not inherently good. Ahsoka's/Qui Gon's and eventually Obi Wan's distrust of the Jedi Order is the only info you need to know that.

Man, you'd think people analyzing these things this in depth would understand the nuance of good and evil. And that it's our experiences and the people in our lives that make us who we are. No one is completely good or completely evil. And that's what's phenomenal about Star Wars.

If we have to agree to disagree on that, fine. But don't claim you know best because you've interpreted certain non-canon as half-baked and other non-canon as fully-baked.

Show me in canon where the Dark Side isn't evil. Show me. Because everything in canon emphasizes that the Dark Side is based in vice and the gaining of power over everything else. It is why it breeds distrust, fear and pain. It is why Vader must turn from the darkness to defeat the Sith and save his son, his own soul. If your answers is some some Del Rey books that were roundly trashed and thrown out, then yeah, you are proving my point.

The Light Side does not equal the Jedi, just like how the Sith are not the Dark Side. They are simply religious groups who follow teachings.

The Light Side is inherently good. That does not mean those who use it are inherently good. The problem for the Jedi is they took on a vice in arrogance, which led to their downfall. Luke Skywalker saw the flaw in the Jedi design and went his own way. When asked to kill Vader, he refused. And by doing so he did the one thing no other Jedi as capable of doing, ending the Sith. Not through battle, but non-violence. He showed his father love, showed him what it meant to be a Jedi, what the Light Side of the Force is. And guess what? He won and passed Yoda as the greatest of all the Jedi Knights.

Dark Siders aren't Force ghost for a reason. It requires acceptance of nature, and the way of things. Something Dark Siders are incapable of doing.
The Dark Side is built around perverting and altering the ways of the world, heck the Force itself. They are all about gaining power. They are destruction. This is why it is quick, easy, and breeds hateful things like The Empire and The First Order.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Show me in canon where the Dark Side isn't evil. Show me. Because everything in canon emphasizes that the Dark Side is based in vice and the gaining of power over everything else. It is why it breeds distrust, fear and pain. It is why Vader must turn from the darkness to defeat the Sith and save his son, his own soul. If your answers is some some Del Rey books that were roundly trashed and thrown out, then yeah, you are proving my point.

The Light Side does not equal the Jedi, just like how the Sith are not the Dark Side. They are simply religious groups who follow teachings.

The Light Side is inherently good. That does not mean those who use it are inherently good. The problem for the Jedi is they took on a vice in arrogance, which led to their downfall. Luke Skywalker saw the flaw in the Jedi design and went his own way. When asked to kill Vader, he refused. And by doing so he did the one thing no other Jedi as capable of doing, ending the Sith. Not through battle, but non-violence. He showed his father love, showed him what it meant to be a Jedi, what the Light Side of the Force is. And guess what? He won and passed Yoda as the greatest of all the Jedi Knights.

Dark Siders aren't Force ghost for a reason. It requires acceptance of nature, and the way of things. Something Dark Siders are incapable of doing.
The Dark Side is built around perverting and altering the ways of the world, heck the Force itself. They are all about gaining power. They are destruction. This is why it is quick, easy, and breeds hateful things like The Empire and The First Order.

So. You willfully admit that just like the Jedi are not the light side, the Sith/First Order are not the Dark Side. But you cite only canon to show that the dark side is evil. Which other dark side users in canon commit evil acts upon others?

And if Luke's non-jedi path of the light side is so inherently good, why did his teachings breed Kylo Ren's seduction to the dark side? Could it be because it's not that simple?

We agree that the dark side is not a viable path to immortality because of it's unwillingness to submit to the natural way of things. We also agree that the dark side is about power and bending the natural world to it's will. It's a faster means to the same ends of prolonging life for a cause of your choosing.

The light side is harder, it takes longer to build power, it finds immortality in inner peace rather than in self-immolation. Not every light side user will have the patience or strength of will to achieve that immortality. But it's still about power. Power in the name of defense, yes. But power nonetheless.

The dark side meshes better with certain people's personalities. People who are determined to prove that if you focus on something nothing will stop you, not even tremendous pain/anguish/despair/fear or even the laws of nature. But destroying yourself to achieve something you believe is right is not evil. I'm sorry, but it's just not.

Even destruction, just like death, is not inherently evil. Look at the destruction and creation of planets/stars/moons, making way for the new. Look at predators in the jungle, who ruin lives in order for their genes to live on.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Okay okay okay. I've actually been moved slightly by this whole argument. Not gonna say I dont still think Dark Rey is an awesome idea. Because I do.

But here's another theory:

Because we assume Kylo Ren will deal with some form of redemption in this trilogy, we must also concede that he and Rey may have an opportunity to team up against Snoke/a larger enemy. What if Kylo Ren were to continue to embrace the dark side, Rey continues to embrace the light side, and they prove that only together are they capable of balancing the force. Light and dark. Because you can't have one without the other. Kylo Ren's redemption doesnt mean he needs to find the light side again. In fact, their forcing it down his throat might be why he turned to Snoke to begin with. Because the light side didn't ever sit well with him.

mmmm.... I like these thoughts. Let me percolate on them for a while.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

So. You willfully admit that just like the Jedi are not the light side, the Sith/First Order are not the Dark Side. But you cite only canon to show that the dark side is evil. Which other dark side users in canon commit evil acts upon others?

Neither Kylo or the Nightsisters are Sith. Savage Oppress was never a Sith. Darth Maul is no longer a Sith, but continues to use the Dark Side.

Now please provide those that embrace the Dark Side who aren't evil in Star Wars canon.

And if Luke's non-jedi path of the light side is so inherently good, why did his teachings breed Kylo Ren's seduction to the dark side? Could it be because it's not that simple?

It is up to the person how they act. That is clear. The Light Side is good. If people turn from it, they turn from it. That has nothing to do with the Light Side.

Snoke lured Kylo with the idea of power to rival Vader, and Kylo's inherent nature was susceptible to it.

On Rebels we are heading into this territory with Ezra. There is a reason the Dark Side uses anger, fear and doubt to lure people to it. It isn't because it is a good thing.

We agree that the dark side is not a viable path to immortality because of it's unwillingness to submit to the natural way of things. We also agree that the dark side is about power and bending the natural world to it's will. It's a faster means to the same ends of prolonging life for a cause of your choosing.

What part of this makes it not evil?

The light side is harder, it takes longer to build power, it finds immortality in inner peace rather than in self-immolation. Not every light side user will have the patience or strength of will to achieve that immortality. But it's still about power. Power in the name of defense, yes. But power nonetheless.

It is how you use the power. That is the entire point of choice. Why it is a choice to walk in the light. They emphasized this over 7 movies already. 7. They have emphasized it on Rebels and TCW and other material. The same for the comic series. The Light Side is the hard choice because it is the right choice.

As Mark Hamill litereally put it today:

As promised!#Ep8SPOILER Plot:GoodvsEvil-Set in past-In Distant Solar System-Luke's part TWICE as big as in #Ep7!
https://***********/HamillHimself/status/717792656986873857

Star Wars is the battle of Good vs. Evil. The Light Side and the Dark Side. There is no question about this.

The dark side meshes better with certain people's personalities. People who are determined to prove that if you focus on something nothing will stop you, not even tremendous pain/anguish/despair/fear or even the laws of nature. But destroying yourself to achieve something you believe is right is not evil. I'm sorry, but it's just not.

Twisting truth does not make it right. Dark Siders are like abusers. They make it okay in there heads. When has Star Wars canon ever shown those that use the Dark Side to be right in its actions? When? Because we have plenty of examples of how that isn't the case.

You sound like Anakin in RotS. Guess what? He was wrong, just like Kylo was wrong when he killed his father. Kylo even knows it. It hurt him because he knows it. This is all in the canon.

Even destruction, just like death, is not inherently evil. Look at the destruction and creation of planets/stars/moons, making way for the new. Look at predators in the jungle, who ruin lives in order for their genes to live on.

You do realize there is a difference between nature taking its course, and imposing yourself on it right? It is just like Globe Warming.

But come on, show me the canon work that backs up this philosophy. I am curious. I mean I guess Return of the Jedi was dead wrong. Or all those good guys who are Dark Siders. Oh wait...

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Neither Kylo or the Nightsisters are Sith. Savage Oppress was never a Sith. Darth Maul is no longer a Sith, but continues to use the Dark Side.

Now please provide those that embrace the Dark Side who aren't evil in Star Wars canon.


It is up to the person how they act. That is clear. The Light Side is good. If people turn from it, they turn from it. That has nothing to do with the Light Side.

Snoke lured Kylo with the idea of power to rival Vader, and Kylo's inherent nature was susceptible to it.

On Rebels we are heading into this territory with Ezra. There is a reason the Dark Side uses anger, fear and doubt to lure people to it. It isn't because it is a good thing.


What part of this makes it not evil?


It is how you use the power. That is the entire point of choice. Why it is a choice to walk in the light. They emphasized this over 7 movies already. 7. They have emphasized it on Rebels and TCW and other material. The same for the comic series. The Light Side is the hard choice because it is the right choice.

As Mark Hamill litereally put it today:



Star Wars is the battle of Good vs. Evil. The Light Side and the Dark Side. There is no question about this.


Twisting truth does not make it right. Dark Siders are like abusers. They make it okay in there heads. When has Star Wars canon ever shown those that use the Dark Side to be right in its actions? When? Because we have plenty of examples of how that isn't the case.

You sound like Anakin in RotS. Guess what? He was wrong, just like Kylo was wrong when he killed his father. Kylo even knows it. It hurt him because he knows it. This is all in the canon.


You do realize there is a difference between nature taking its course, and imposing yourself on it right? It is just like Globe Warming.

But come on, show me the canon work that backs up this philosophy. I am curious. I mean I guess Return of the Jedi was dead wrong. Or all those good guys who are Dark Siders. Oh wait...

You can't honestly tell me you think Dooku is evil. He's self-serving, he's arrogant, but evil? They guy sees the corruption in the Republic long before anyone else does. Obi Wan's refusal to even listen to him might have had a hand in starting the clone wars.

I'm pretty sure the only times I've ever heard the word "evil" uttered in the star wars films were both from Obi Wan. Once about Palpatine (RotS), and once about Vader (ANH). Palpatine I agree with (assuming some of the theories about his foresight aren't true), but even I don't agree with Obi Wan calling Darth a "Master of Evil" after seeing Vader's redemption.

And so many other dark side users have toed the line though, and I can't believe you'd discount their good actions or perspective of what is right just because the Jedi (who aren't inherently good) narrative tells you to. Ventress herself has done good things in her career as Dooku's apprentice.

Yes light side users trend toward good actions. Yes dark side users trend toward evil actions. But it's not a direct line. Asking me to name a dark side user who doesnt do evil is exactly like asking me to name a light side user who does. Both are rare. But both are shown, right there in the stories.

Mace Windu, who chopped a dudes head off in front of his son. Or Obi Wan, who lied to a pregnant woman to chase down and murder a disturbed friend. Or Luke who blew up a battle station full of human beings who, like Finn, were just doing their job.

It's rare, but it happens. Because no one is perfect. Which by the way, i feel sorry for anyone in your life who makes bad choices or selfish decisions. Sounds like forgiveness and understanding aren't in your repertoire.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You can't honestly tell me you think Dooku is evil. He's self-serving, he's arrogant, but evil? They guy sees the corruption in the Republic long before anyone else does. Obi Wan's refusal to even listen to him might have had a hand in starting the clone wars.

Okay I am being serious now. How much of the canon have you watched and read? Because Dooku is clearly evil. He murdered people. His along with Palpatine started a galactic war so Palpatine could gain power. He created an army of clones to do this. Think of the moral and ethical problems with that. People created to serve one purpose. To fight a war that is for show. The death of millions is on his hands. Dude was into kidnapping children. Do we need to get into what he did to Ventress?

Yep, he is evil.

I'm pretty sure the only times I've ever heard the word "evil" uttered in the star wars films were both from Obi Wan. Once about Palpatine (RotS), and once about Vader (ANH). Palpatine I agree with (assuming some of the theories about his foresight aren't true), but even I don't agree with Obi Wan calling Darth a "Master of Evil" after seeing Vader's redemption.

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Why-...ose-Dark-Side-According-J-J-Abrams-77967.html

For Vader to be redeemed, he has to reject the Dark Side, stop being evil. Do you not understand this?

Do you not understand that Star Wars is the battle of good vs. Evil? Light vs. Dark? The creators, Lucas, Kasdan, JJ, others. They have all said this.

And so many other dark side users have toed the line though, and I can't believe you'd discount their good actions or perspective of what is right just because the Jedi (who aren't inherently good) narrative tells you to. Ventress herself has done good things in her career as Dooku's apprentice.

Like what? What in canon did Ventress do that was good before Dooku "fired" her and tried to kill her? What?

But asking me to name a dark side user who doesnt do evil is exactly like asking me to name a light side user who does. Both are rare. But both are shown, right there in the stories.

You can't name one. You can't. You can't do it. I asked for one. I answered your question, why can't you answer mine?

Mace Windu, who chopped a dudes head off in front of his son. Or Obi Wan, who lied to a pregnant woman to chase down and murder a disturbed friend. Or Luke who blew up a battle station full of human beings who, like Finn, were just doing their job. Pong Krell is another great example.

Are you joking? Jango killed people and then attacked Windu, who defended himself. Defense is the Jedi way.

Obi-Wan did not lie to Padme. She lied to him and he figured it out.

And you want to go with disturbed friend? the guy who killed a bunch of kids because some old dude in a robe told him so? You are proving my point. That is what the Dark Side does. It twist a person, makes them evil!!!! How many Yoda speeches do you need before this is clear?

And did you really just go with Luke being evil for blowing up the weapon that was about to blow up a planet because reasons?

Pong Krell = Evil.

I mean really? really?

It's rare, but it happens. Because no one is perfect. Which by the way, i feel sorry for anyone in your life who makes bad choices or selfish decisions. Sounds like forgiveness and understanding aren't in your repertoire.

Never happens. The entire point is that once you fall from the light, you are using the Dark Side. We aren't talking about bad choices and selfish decisions. We are talking about murder, a lot of it mass.

But it is cute that you tried to equate bad decision making with murder on a consistent basis. I knew you didn't have an argument. You are right, I do not have forgiveness for mass murderers.

The Dark Side makes people do bad things. Nothing good. What Vader did because of the Dark Side was never good. When Kylo murders people to become stronger in the Dark Side, it shows you what it means. What it does. Why are you ignoring what the stories tell us?

 

[Loki882]

And you got this from her character so far how exactly?

I would see it more as her still hating him for the whole kidnapping and torturing her, killing her possible future surrogate father figure right in front of her, and beating her best friend into a coma, also right in front of her. So she already wants him to pay for all of that, combine that with her potentially learning painful details about her past, and potential disagreements with Luke.

It makes her angry, reckless, and sloppy, which Kylo (who's now much more ruthlessly focused after finishing Snoke's training) exploits in order to defeat her.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Okay I am being serious now. How much of the canon have you watched and read? Because Dooku is clearly evil. He murdered people. His along with Palpatine started a galactic war so Palpatine could gain power. He created an army of clones to do this. Think of the moral and ethical problems with that. People created to serve one purpose. To fight a war that is for show. The death of millions is on his hands. Dude was into kidnapping children. Do we need to get into what he did to Ventress?

Yep, he is evil.


http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Why-...ose-Dark-Side-According-J-J-Abrams-77967.html

For Vader to be redeemed, he has to reject the Dark Side, stop being evil. Do you not understand this?

Do you not understand that Star Wars is the battle of good vs. Evil? Light vs. Dark? The creators, Lucas, Kasdan, JJ, others. They have all said this.


Like what? What in canon did Ventress do that was good before Dooku "fired" her and tried to kill her? What?


You can't name one. You can't. You can't do it. I asked for one. I answered your question, why can't you answer mine?


Are you joking? Jango killed people and then attacked Windu, who defended himself. Defense is the Jedi way.

Obi-Wan did not lie to Padme. She lied to him and he figured it out.

And you want to go with disturbed friend? the guy who killed a bunch of kids because some old dude in a robe told him so? You are proving my point. That is what the Dark Side does. It twist a person, makes them evil!!!! How many Yoda speeches do you need before this is clear?

And did you really just go with Luke being evil for blowing up the weapon that was about to blow up a planet because reasons?

Pong Krell = Evil.

I mean really? really?


Never happens. The entire point is that once you fall from the light, you are using the Dark Side. We aren't talking about bad choices and selfish decisions. We are talking about murder, a lot of it mass.

But it is cute that you tried to equate bad decision making with murder on a consistent basis. I knew you didn't have an argument. You are right, I do not have forgiveness for mass murderers.

The Dark Side makes people do bad things. Nothing good. What Vader did because of the Dark Side was never good. When Kylo murders people to become stronger in the Dark Side, it shows you what it means. What it does. Why are you ignoring what the stories tell us?

You must realize I'm not the only one who interprets the force this way.

I'm not worried about it. We've got different opinions about the saga.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I would see it more as her still hating him for the whole kidnapping and torturing her, killing her possible future surrogate father figure right in front of her, and beating her best friend into a coma, also right in front of her. So she already wants him to pay for all of that, combine that with her potentially learning painful details about her past, and potential disagreements with Luke.

It makes her angry, reckless, and sloppy, which Kylo (who's now much more ruthlessly focused after finishing Snoke's training) exploits in order to defeat her.

Defeating her in combat I see easily. After all Kylo will be stronger, once he puts the Han thing past him. Completes his training. I was talking about her being an arrogant so and so who goes to the Dark Side because she is too arrogant.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

I would see it more as her still hating him for the whole kidnapping and torturing her, killing her possible future surrogate father figure right in front of her, and beating her best friend into a coma, also right in front of her. So she already wants him to pay for all of that, combine that with her potentially learning painful details about her past, and potential disagreements with Luke.

It makes her angry, reckless, and sloppy, which Kylo (who's now much more ruthlessly focused after finishing Snoke's training) exploits in order to defeat her.

I think you make valid points. I also personally got as many neutral vibes from Rey as I did good ones. She also showed plenty of good in coming to the defense of Finn and a few other moments. Very kind in saving the droid, but not too keen on getting involved in it's tribulations. Haven't necessarily gotten any bad ones yet, but she has definitely felt fear and despair. And longing which can easily turn into passion. There's certainly seeds there, it's what they do with those seeds that really counts.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You must realize I'm not the only one who interprets the force this way.

I'm not worried about it. We've got different opinions about the saga.

And they would be wrong. Because all the canon says it so. Which is exactly why you couldn't come up with an example. Kind of hard to argue with mass murder, huh?