A World without Metahumans

Robin and the others are trained and led specifically by Batman, answering to his directions and to his ultimate goal. In the case of Gotham, Batman usually knows best and instructs his "family" as to how to achieve that. He's let go of two Robins now, Dick and Steph, for being unable to comply with that. Any time you expect Superman or Wonder Woman or Bart Allen to follow Batman's questionable orders without any hesitation or variation or disapproval, you be sure and let him know.
 
"Batman knows best".
How so?
A crime is a crime is a crime.
If Superman hears a thug raping a college girl in a "Hotham" alley, why should he have to wait for Batman´s greenlight?


Darthphere said:
Superman said it with his own damn words and since when are Robin Nightwing and most of the BOP metahumans?

They are not metahumans.
And if non-metahumans fared quite well in Gotham, why wouldn´t Meta-humans (who don´t have to worry about bullets) do an even better job?
 
Ive never seen anyone miss the point so badly.
 
droogiedroogie2 said:
No, it doesn't. Only if there are supervillains for them to fight. And those supervillains only occur POST superhero. So you're wrong.

Think of it this way. If all metahumans stayed up in the atmosphere, away from cities, and just defended the planet against intergalactic *******s, they would be an unqualified boon to the planet. But they don't. They stay in cities, and they have created a certain level of crime. Now it's their duty to fight that crime. So they do. Now that they've made a mess, OF COURSE it's important for them to stick around! But if they'd never made the mess, they wouldn't be needed at the local level?

These are comics books about superheroes fighting supervillains; gee, I wonder if they'll make villains for them to fight and even nemesis that spring up specifically because of them?:rolleyes::whatever:

Do you think all the smart people in the real world lead law abiding lives? Exceptional athletes never EVER cheat? Ministers never use their charisma and ability to inspire people for their own twisted gains? Exceptional people are just people in the end, they have different personalities and decide what to do with their lives.

Are you serious in suggesting that each villain rises up in order to oppose a hero? Or is it that they decide to operate in a city that already has a hero and think that they'll get away with it? Think about it a bit. If you have the power to go through walls are you going to think: "This is great! I suck at fighting and have never done this before but I'm gonna go up against the Batman!!!!" Or are you gonna think: "This is great! I barely know how to use my powers but I'm gonna go into a bank at night when there's no one there and take some money out of the vault! Easy money, CHA-CHING!!!"

And heroes' rogues following them around? C'mon. If they don't move out of a city because they're constantly being beaten by the same guy, why the hell would they move to go and get beaten BY THE SAME GUY?!:mad: Sure, almost every hero has one psycho villain that wants to beat them, but it's not the majority. Why would a sane villain give up their connections and knowledge of the area just to pester a hero? Theyd don't do it when things are going badly for them with their "current hero", wouldn't they be happy if the hero leaves? Sorry, man, but I find most of your arguments flawed and very Batfanboyish.:o
 
Darthphere said:
Ive never seen anyone miss the point so badly.

What point?
That Robin and Nightwing are not metas?

Doesn´t affect what I said.

Two trained humans managed to fare quite well in Gotham.
Why wouldn´t a meta (someone who doesn´t have to worry about the things they do like bullets) automatically screw up?

I expect at some stage to see someone argue that Gotham villains are "special", that a meta-hero wouldn´t last a second agaisnt them.

Well, Lex Luthor is the smartest man on earth and Superman has done quite well throughout the years.

WW has gone against Circe who´s wickedly smart and has been alive since long before most countries were born!

And on and on.
 
Zeu said:
"Batman knows best".
How so?
A crime is a crime is a crime.
If Superman hears a thug raping a college girl in a "Hotham" alley, why should he have to wait for Batman´s greenlight?
Gotham is not just about stopping muggings and helping old ladies cross the street. Not that I'm saying that's all Superman et all does, but Gotham needs to be changed on an intrinsic level, in a special sort of battle, that only Batman truly understands. The corruption is internal, not external. It's in the city halls, in the police force, in the financial districts, in the businesses, in the street corners, and in people's hearts where not even super-hearing or X-ray vision is going to be able to see. Superman himself admitted during his first visit that Batman's town works very differently from his own.

http://premium1.uploadit.org/saintfish//manofsteel03-21.jpg

If he just rushes in, heatvision a-blazin', and tries stomping over all the psychos and the drug dealers...it's almost completely certain that he'd do more harm than good.
 
Are you saying that no other superhero in the DCU is qualified to fight city hall or police corruption?

That Batman is the only one among all the DCU superheroes who´s ever faced threats like those?

That when dealing with the likes of finantial crime, Superman´s superhearing, Wonder Woman´s lasso or truth or Jonn´s telepathy would be completelly WORTHLESS?
 
I think what it comes down to is all the heroes are, well, taken.

Yeah you could send Flash in to run Gotham City, but Flash has his hands full with Keystone City. Send Superman in to clean up Gotham? Fine, so who's going to be keeping Metropolis clean, when Superman is cleaning up Gotham?

The best you're gonna get from any of these guys is a day or a week or a month of quick-fix run-'n'-gun super-heroing, and that is what is probably going to do a hell of a lot more harm than good, over the long haul.
 
Zeu said:
Are you saying that no other superhero in the DCU is qualified to fight city hall or police corruption?

That Batman is the only one among all the DCU superheroes who´s ever faced threats like those?

That when dealing with the likes of finantial crime, Superman´s superhearing, Wonder Woman´s lasso or truth or Jonn´s telepathy would be completelly WORTHLESS?
No one is as qualified as Batman to take care of Gotham, and therefore others trust Batman to take care of Gotham. That's the canon straight from the comics. You can accept it or not, but it's right there in the books.

Incidentally...the lasso of truth, as has been recently stated in Wonder Woman comics, is supposedly unconstitutional. It forces a confession out of someone thus violating their right against self-incrimination. Considering the blatant revolving door system of Gotham's jails and asylums, any half-baked lawyer in that city could acquit any criminal she even goes near with that lasso, no matter how obviously guilty the guy is. Like I said, doing more harm than good.

I'm guessing that you can make twice that number of logistical complaints against Martian Manhunter's telepathy. Seriously, due process goes right out the window. And putting J'onn in the same room as these people, any one of them could claim that he was being mind-controlled or something. And there'd be no legal way within the framework of Gotham to refute that.

I mean, the list goes on and on. And like fifthfiend said, while brightly colored capes and star-spangled panties are wasting their time fighting a losing battle in Gotham, who's out there doing their jobs? What about Wonder Woman's mission to bring peace to the world? What about Superman keeping an eye on Lex Luthor? What about Green Lantern and the entire space sector that he's supposed to patrol? Captain Marvel's duty to keep the world from magical threats? The moment that you find a superhero that actually has the time on his hands to do Batman's job competently, you be sure and let him know. Usually when a hero has too much free time, it actually means that they're not very good at their jobs.
 
Zeu said:
So why Batman doesn´t want them in Gotham?

Because he prefers to have Gotham under his control. Just like Central City and Keystone City are under the control of the Flashes. Just like Metropolis is under the control of Superman. Just like Star City is under control of Green Arrow.

He's managed to kick the Birds of Prey out of Gotham. He doesn't trust the Creeper. Ragman now travels with the Shadowpact. Batman somewhat trusts Jason Blood. And Plastic Man isn't really showning up these days now that he's no longer a member of the JLA.
 
I am truly surprised that nobody made the easiest appeals to this mostly pointless debate. But in the absence of that, I guess I will bring up the points.


1)As already stated, Batman is very much into being the one in control. This is clearly illustrated in the recent Justice Leauge #1, in which he wants Captain Marvel on the roster, and Diana challenges it, on the grounds that Bruce only wanted him on the team, because he is easily controlled (in terms of being told what to do etc).

2)Prior to Infinite Crisis, the entire idea being presented, was that the super hero community was slowly failing to be trust worthy. From Identity Crisis, to the Omac Project. We saw heroes wiping the minds of villains and heroes alike. In particular, Batman had his mind wiped. And as soon as he found out, he created Brother Eye to monitor all vigilante (metahuman or otherwise) activity on earth. His team betrayed him about one of the things he holds dear. Lets not forget that the JLA contains both humans and meta humans. Further more, when Diana snapped Maxwell Lord's neck, that was pretty much the line in the sand that got crossed. Bruce still doesn't trust Hal Jordan because of Zero Hour/Parallax. He barely trusts Diana. He just doesn't trust people.

That both provides the motive (he doesn't trust other heroes) and the reason behind the motive itself (why he doesn't trust other heroes. I'd be paranoid about letting people get too close to me, if they were willing to kill (a rule Batman doesn't break...anymore) or wipe my mind on a whim.
 
BrianWilly said:
No one is as qualified as Batman to take care of Gotham, and therefore others trust Batman to take care of Gotham. That's the canon straight from the comics. You can accept it or not, but it's right there in the books.

Incidentally...the lasso of truth, as has been recently stated in Wonder Woman comics, is supposedly unconstitutional. It forces a confession out of someone thus violating their right against self-incrimination. Considering the blatant revolving door system of Gotham's jails and asylums, any half-baked lawyer in that city could acquit any criminal she even goes near with that lasso, no matter how obviously guilty the guy is. Like I said, doing more harm than good.

I'm guessing that you can make twice that number of logistical complaints against Martian Manhunter's telepathy. Seriously, due process goes right out the window. And putting J'onn in the same room as these people, any one of them could claim that he was being mind-controlled or something. And there'd be no legal way within the framework of Gotham to refute that.

I mean, the list goes on and on. And like fifthfiend said, while brightly colored capes and star-spangled panties are wasting their time fighting a losing battle in Gotham, who's out there doing their jobs? What about Wonder Woman's mission to bring peace to the world? What about Superman keeping an eye on Lex Luthor? What about Green Lantern and the entire space sector that he's supposed to patrol? Captain Marvel's duty to keep the world from magical threats? The moment that you find a superhero that actually has the time on his hands to do Batman's job competently, you be sure and let him know. Usually when a hero has too much free time, it actually means that they're not very good at their jobs.

Most of the tactics Batman uses are unconstitutional as well, so that argument is moot. To my knowledge, the overwhelming majority of the capes do not respond to an authority like a cop or federal agent would.

How many times have we seen Batman breaking and entering? How many times have we seen him "listening in" conversations between perps with electronic devices?
Are you gonna tell me that a vigilante hacking into a private computer is more constitutional than someone using a lasso of truth to find out where the body of a college girl is buried?

And yet Gordon has no problem jailing the perps he brings in and the courts have no problem convicting the people he captures using the tactics he uses.

As for the issue of finding a cape free to patrol Gotham, that is not the question being asked, is it?

The issue at hand is why is he kicking capes out left and right when he himself can´t handle it alone?

And don´t tell me he "can" handle it alone, because if he could handle it alone, Gotham would be a shinning beacon of hope like Metrropolis by now, a citizen filled with light and hope and smiles in the faces of children and all that feel-good crap.
 
I think the issue has lost its real focus. The title of the thread is "A World without Metahumans," not just "Gotham City without Metahumans." Batman's got plenty of reasons for wanting other metas out of his city -some of which are justifiable, some of which are him being a paranoid jerk with no faith in anyone but himself- but in the end, Gotham is only one city, and what applies to one city does not necessarily apply to the rest of the world.

One of the biggest arguments presented in this thread is that supervillains, in general, are somehow all brought about directly or indirectly by the actions of the hero. While this is true in the case of Batman, this again doesn't necessarily apply to the rest of the metahuman community. Lex Luthor was always a hateful megalomaniac, and had pretty much taken hold over Metropolis even before Superman's arrival. Sinestro would still be wreaking havoc across the galaxy even if Hal Jordan had never put on his ring. Nearly all of the Rogues in Central and Keystone City would be operating in some form of criminal activity (superhuman or not) without the Flash. I could go on, but the point stands: the assumption that superheroes inherrently bring about supervillains is invalid, because by and large the threat already exists.

Speaking in much broader terms, the entire metahuman population is essential to the DC Earth's survival. While they do seem to make living more dangerous on a day-to-day basis, the superhero and supervillains of the world have ended up preserving the planet's very existence on more than one occasion. The possible collateral damage in a battle between Superman and Parasite, while regrettable, is far preferable to being enslaved by Darkseid or wiped from reality itself by the Anti-Monitor.

In terms of real-life, where interplanetary threats like that don't exist, you could argue the merits and downfalls of a hypothetical superhuman population. But in the DC universe, the Earth itself is still around only because of them. So even if their methods aren't desirable, at the end of the day, metahumans are absolutely vital.
 
Andy C. said:
I think the issue has lost its real focus. The title of the thread is "A World without Metahumans," not just "Gotham City without Metahumans." Batman's got plenty of reasons for wanting other metas out of his city -some of which are justifiable, some of which are him being a paranoid jerk with no faith in anyone but himself- but in the end, Gotham is only one city, and what applies to one city does not necessarily apply to the rest of the world.

One of the biggest arguments presented in this thread is that supervillains, in general, are somehow all brought about directly or indirectly by the actions of the hero. While this is true in the case of Batman, this again doesn't necessarily apply to the rest of the metahuman community. Lex Luthor was always a hateful megalomaniac, and had pretty much taken hold over Metropolis even before Superman's arrival. Sinestro would still be wreaking havoc across the galaxy even if Hal Jordan had never put on his ring. Nearly all of the Rogues in Central and Keystone City would be operating in some form of criminal activity (superhuman or not) without the Flash. I could go on, but the point stands: the assumption that superheroes inherrently bring about supervillains is invalid, because by and large the threat already exists.

Speaking in much broader terms, the entire metahuman population is essential to the DC Earth's survival. While they do seem to make living more dangerous on a day-to-day basis, the superhero and supervillains of the world have ended up preserving the planet's very existence on more than one occasion. The possible collateral damage in a battle between Superman and Parasite, while regrettable, is far preferable to being enslaved by Darkseid or wiped from reality itself by the Anti-Monitor.

In terms of real-life, where interplanetary threats like that don't exist, you could argue the merits and downfalls of a hypothetical superhuman population. But in the DC universe, the Earth itself is still around only because of them. So even if their methods aren't desirable, at the end of the day, metahumans are absolutely vital.


Well said.
 
Zeu said:
Most of the tactics Batman uses are unconstitutional as well, so that argument is moot. To my knowledge, the overwhelming majority of the capes do not respond to an authority like a cop or federal agent would.

How many times have we seen Batman breaking and entering? How many times have we seen him "listening in" conversations between perps with electronic devices?
Are you gonna tell me that a vigilante hacking into a private computer is more constitutional than someone using a lasso of truth to find out where the body of a college girl is buried?

And yet Gordon has no problem jailing the perps he brings in and the courts have no problem convicting the people he captures using the tactics he uses.
Batman is smart enough to manipulate the system to work in his advantage. Gotham requires subtlety, not force. He is shrewd to the point of being able to put criminals in the position where it is absolutely impossible for them to be found innocent. And even then, sometimes they find a way out of that. You see this in his comics all the time. You'd never be able to get those sorts of results in Gotham when you just bust into the Penguin's lair and start slingin' some Power Ring around.

The fact remains, if the lasso of truth can't be legally used to get a Checkmate spy to admit to Max Lord's crimes, then there is absolutely no way in hell that it's going to have any sort of legal weight in Gotham where the corruption is much more severe and insidious. Batman doesn't need a lasso of truth. He has the patience to gather just the right amount of evidence to show that the perp is guilty without any doubt at all, even if his methods are illegal which they obviously are. He's a detective, after all. It's not the fact that more powerful metahumans physically can't deal with Gotham's problems, it's that their methods are just unfit. And, on occasion, Batman has enlisted the aid of obvious metahuman Ralph Dibny in the past...not for his superpowers, but for his methods and mind. In Gotham, subtlety and patience is more useful than brute force, which is the only thing that most metahumans have to bring to the table. That's simply all there is to it.

Zeu said:
As for the issue of finding a cape free to patrol Gotham, that is not the question being asked, is it?

The issue at hand is why is he kicking capes out left and right when he himself can´t handle it alone?

And don´t tell me he "can" handle it alone, because if he could handle it alone, Gotham would be a shinning beacon of hope like Metrropolis by now, a citizen filled with light and hope and smiles in the faces of children and all that feel-good crap.
Is that a fact you can back up with evidence, or is it just your own personal assumption?

Are you just deliberately missing the point or something? People keep giving you dozens upon dozens of good reasons and you just keep asking the same question. We've already established, based on canon, that Gotham is a very different city than Metropolis. This should be blatantly obvious even without the comics pointing it out endlessly. They started out as two completely different cities with different problems. Just logically speaking, using the same superhero solution on both cities is going to get you very different results. I mean...this isn't rocket science, this is common sense. Saying that Metropolis or any other city became a shining beacon while Gotham didn't is like saying that a child with the flu got better while a child with cancer didn't, and for some reason it's the fault of the doctor who treated the child with cancer. Even more absurd, what you're suggesting is that if we bring in the doctor who treated the flu and used his exact method of treating the flu to treat the cancer, that method will somehow work where the previous one didn't. It's not a perfectly analogy by any means, but it's more than apt for this situation.

And he isn't "handling it alone." He has several partners that work with him. Some of them are even metahumans. Others of them, like Oracle, possess capabilities and resources that most metahumans can only dream of. But too many metahumans in the city obviously work against his plans. Maybe he's just being ornery and paranoid. Maybe not. But he has his reasons, and they're usually very good ones.
 
BrianWilly said:
And he isn't "handling it alone." He has several partners that work with him. Some of them are even metahumans.

Name them. And Black Canary doesn't count, she's Oracle's partner, not Bats' (and, no, that's not the same).

BrianWilly said:
Others of them, like Oracle, possess capabilities and resources that most metahumans can only dream of. But too many metahumans in the city obviously work against his plans. Maybe he's just being ornery and paranoid. Maybe not. But he has his reasons, and they're usually very good ones.

I get Zeu's point, I think that it's the rest of you who don't understand. He's not saying that established metas should take over Gotham, he's saying that if metahumans (whoever they might be, even new ones) were in the city that it might be a better city from what we've seen in the other cities in the DCU.

If it works in other cities why not Gotham? Because Batman says so? Because DC WANTS to keep Gotham the way it is so Batman can have his personal playground story-wise? The main mistake I see people are making is that they equate being human to sneakiness and having powers to being obvious. Hasn't Superman as Clark Kent ousted Intergang by being sneaky? We still don't know WW's story, but apparently she's passing as a govt. agent now. Is it so hard to conceive that if there were people with powers in Gotham, that operated in the way that you guys say that you HAVE to operate in Gotham, that it would be a better place than it currently is? Of course, it'll never happen because editorially it would destroy Batman's world; but think outside the context, I think it's reasonable that Gotham could get better with people that can do what none of the Bat Family can do.
 
Yeah, that´s pretty much it.

I think people underestimate metas a lot.
They assume that the moment you gain superpowers, you become this mindless brute who rushes in heatvision firing first and ask questions later.

If Batgirl managed to adjust herself to Gotham quite well (and we´re talking about a socially-chalenged person who couldn´t even speak), why do people automatically assume that Jonn or Spectre would never manage to tune their M.O. to the city´s rythm?
 
Okay, here is a better way to outline the situation. Because obviously it isn't a question of a world without metas, or not even a question of why Batman won't accept them running around. This is really an aimless argument pointed at finding a remedy to Gotham city. So i'll just highlight a few other ideas, and maybe I won't get ignored like my last post, in favored of continued, prior arguments.

1)Infinite Crisis already stated the obvious. I believe Clark said it best himself..."In a perfect world, there would be no need for Superman." How does this relate to Batman or even this conversation? Some of you keep saying that meta's would make the situation better, because they would have super powers to aid their efforts. If the situaion were really that easy, then how could one explain the numerous places that have metahumans, and are still terrorized. the graphic novel Rouges, for the Flash, clearly ilustrates how easy it is for crap to hit the fan. And the Flash can nearly be everywhere at once (relatively speaking), yet his friend nearly sucked the city into oblivion, Gorilla Grodd destroyed half of downtown, and Fallout killed a few people just by walking by. The point is, that meta humans aren't the answer to every problem, for every city. Case in point, Metropolis, which is guarded by Superman, has far more gang activity and crime, than Star City, which is guarded by Green Arrow and Arsenal...regular humans.

2)Batman represents the final stronghold of the old ways of comic books and comic book heroes. He is the last of a legacy of regular men in costume, such as The Shadow, The Phantom or maybe even Doc Savage (if you woud consider him a super hero). Batman isn't about people shooting crap out of their eyes or hurling heavily weighted objects, long distances. It is about a single mans war on crime, in the city he can't let go of. Just as his father fought to save that city,the best he could, his son follows in he heart of his footsteps, while creating his own path. Batman and Gotham represent a greater idea than costumed crime fighting. Unlike most super heroes in the DC universe, that are chosen champions (Shazam, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern etc) or who do it just because they can (The Flash, Green Arrow,Black Canary etc), Batman does it, for tragic reasons. He is a troubled man fighting more than crime as it happens. He is fighting corruption itself, at the very root. The mood of his books, is unlike any other super hero book out there. Perhaps DC realizes that much of the characterization would be ruined, if they just introduced all kinds of super powered people into the mix. A book like Gotham Central, wouldn't be possible, if they suddenly had metahuman heroes making Gotham their home. The entire focus of that book, is on a police department that struggles to not feel worthless, in the face of a lone man who solves most of the crime in the city. And it is an interesting book for that very reason. It presents the classic man vs. man element of story telling, as well as man vs. self, as these officers constantly battle each other, Batman, and themselves. Maybe...just maybe, DC knows what they are doing with the character. And maybe...just maybe, we don't need bright red and blue tights, entering into the dark noir world that is Batman...
 
Tropico said:
I get Zeu's point, I think that it's the rest of you who don't understand. He's not saying that established metas should take over Gotham, he's saying that if metahumans (whoever they might be, even new ones) were in the city that it might be a better city from what we've seen in the other cities in the DCU.

If it works in other cities why not Gotham? Because Batman says so? Because DC WANTS to keep Gotham the way it is so Batman can have his personal playground story-wise? The main mistake I see people are making is that they equate being human to sneakiness and having powers to being obvious. Hasn't Superman as Clark Kent ousted Intergang by being sneaky? We still don't know WW's story, but apparently she's passing as a govt. agent now. Is it so hard to conceive that if there were people with powers in Gotham, that operated in the way that you guys say that you HAVE to operate in Gotham, that it would be a better place than it currently is? Of course, it'll never happen because editorially it would destroy Batman's world; but think outside the context, I think it's reasonable that Gotham could get better with people that can do what none of the Bat Family can do.
Like...what?

What exactly needs to be done in Gotham that Batman and his people can't do, and needs superpowered heroes to do for him? Clobber people? Punch through buildings? Stop robberies? Mindwipes?

The problem with Gotham is not something you can punch. It is a social disease, and far more insidious than some cackling supervillains all over the place. Okay, yeah, if you dress down Clark Kent or Diana Prince and have them be all subtle and sneaky and work with the system it's probable that they'll learn to adapt...but then, what would be the point? There was nothing wrong with their previous methods, it's just that it's unfit for Gotham. That's not the battle that they were meant to fight. Why not just find some normal humans to train into those situations since those situations don't call for superpowers? Oh, wait, that's exactly what he does. Gotham does not need magic lassoes or earth-shattering fists, and adding such things to the equation just mucks everything up and is likely to make things worse. The problem, plain and simple, is corruption. The sort of corruption that's not going to go away just because you have people in spandex acting heroic. "If it works in other cities why not Gotham?" Because Gotham is different than other cities. This is a fact inherent in the question.

Zeu said:
I think people underestimate metas a lot.
They assume that the moment you gain superpowers, you become this mindless brute who rushes in heatvision firing first and ask questions later.
Compared to most other superheroes, especially very powerful ones like Superman and Green Lantern and Wonder Woman, Batman has a much, much more subtle approach. This is FACT. It is not a point of debate up for discussion. It is simply how these characters are written. Batman has a lot more patience and a lot more detective skills and a lot more experience in just using his head to solve a problem as opposed to his fists than almost any metahuman superhero you can name. If you don't believe this about those characters, you really don't have any idea about how they work.

Zeu said:
If Batgirl managed to adjust herself to Gotham quite well (and we´re talking about a socially-chalenged person who couldn´t even speak), why do people automatically assume that Jonn or Spectre would never manage to tune their M.O. to the city´s rythm?
Okay, now it feels like you're just grasping for ways to make this work. If you'll notice, you're talking about BATgirl here, not Supergirl or Power Girl or Wonder Girl. Batgirl adjusted to Gotham quite well because she was trained by Batman himself and his team to work how he works. She herself has said, many times, that she admires Batman's approach and wants to be able to be him one day. Frankly, I think Batgirl being able to adjust to Gotham is more a point against your argument than it is for it, considering that the way she adjusted to Gotham was by using Batman's decidedly non-metahuman modus operandi.

Again, it's not like other heroes' approaches are wrong or anything, it's simply that they're not fit for Gotham. The fact is that Superman works very well in Metropolis. Why force him into Gotham, a situation where he is bizarrely out of place? You'd be trying to force a square peg into a round hole. And I swear to Buffy, if you just ask me why other heroes' approaches aren't fit for Gotham, AGAIN, I'm just going to keep on dragging out that scan of friggin' SUPERMAN HIMSELF admitting that Gotham needs a different approach than his.
 
Still waiting for you to list all those meta partners Batman works with all the time in Gotham.:dry:

BrianWilly said:
Like...what?

What exactly needs to be done in Gotham that Batman and his people can't do, and needs superpowered heroes to do for him? Clobber people? Punch through buildings? Stop robberies? Mindwipes?

I don't know. Someone with invisibility that can be practically anywhere and get information, evidence and possibly even pictures from the scene of the crime (as it happens) even in an open environment and in broad daylight where no one would be able to hide. Someone with superhearing that would be able to hear what's happening in the next room even when there are jamming devices. Someone with telepathy that can verify if what the villains are saying si true and that way they don't walk in on an ambush. Someone to punch through buildings? Sure, why not; Bats method is through fear and having a superpowered "tank" might actually help to drive more fear into opponents and make them move away or give up crime altogether.

I'm really surprised at how dead set some people here are at how things currently that they can't see how things could be. I know they have more imagination than what they're displaying here. we've seen covert teams like the Suicide Squad and JLElite, I know they get results; why is it so hard to interporlate that into a place like Gotham baffles me. We've seen what a group of metas can do to scan a room for evidence in Identity Crisis. At the very least, AT THE VERY LEAST, they would make the work faster. But. I bet that you people won't even admit to that.

Just another reminder for Brianwilly to post that list of Batman's meta partners. From Gotham, of course.;):D
 
Tropico said:
Someone with telepathy that can verify if what the villains are saying si true and that way they don't walk in on an ambush. Someone to punch through buildings?

Are you actually keeping up with Batman currently? I'm not saying that sarcastically. I'm being rather honest. Why even make the suggestion that Batman would welcome soembody into his group, that can violate mental privacy, when Batman has had his privacy violated twice (first when Clark used X-Rayv vision to see his identity and a second time when the JLA wiped his mind). Batman doesn't like it done to himself, he sure as hell wouldn't have it done to others. Even the fact that you suggest a telepath, seems to weaken your overall argument, because it conveys that your awareness of Batman or his methods, is not as complete, as BrianWilly's, or even myself (though I am far from a Batman expert). Most of the things you suggest are already possible with Batman's equipment. He has no problem with spying on people at a great distane. Between himself, several of his acting agents (Robin, Batgirl, Batwoman and Nightwing) and Oracle, there isn't much that can be kept from Batman. The deeper element at work with Batman however, is the fact that he and his crew, are street fighters and detectives. Most super heroes have rather obvious villains to battle. They come out, destroy things in public, and caus chaos. Not every criminal that Batman hunts down, does their dirty business in the public eye. These are the kind of people that require more than metahuman power, to be dealt with. Why do you think Batman calls on Ralph Dibny (a superior detective) before he calls on other metahumans?
 
Arach Knight said:
Are you actually keeping up with Batman currently? I'm not saying that sarcastically. I'm being rather honest. Why even make the suggestion that Batman would welcome soembody into his group, that can violate mental privacy, when Batman has had his privacy violated twice (first when Clark used X-Rayv vision to see his identity and a second time when the JLA wiped his mind). Batman doesn't like it done to himself, he sure as hell wouldn't have it done to others. Even the fact that you suggest a telepath, seems to weaken your overall argument, because it conveys that your awareness of Batman or his methods, is not as complete, as BrianWilly's, or even myself (though I am far from a Batman expert). Most of the things you suggest are already possible with Batman's equipment. He has no problem with spying on people at a great distane. Between himself, several of his acting agents (Robin, Batgirl, Batwoman and Nightwing) and Oracle, there isn't much that can be kept from Batman. The deeper element at work with Batman however, is the fact that he and his crew, are street fighters and detectives. Most super heroes have rather obvious villains to battle. They come out, destroy things in public, and caus chaos. Not every criminal that Batman hunts down, does their dirty business in the public eye. These are the kind of people that require more than metahuman power, to be dealt with. Why do you think Batman calls on Ralph Dibny (a superior detective) before he calls on other metahumans?

Do you people read my whole posts or just read one section and go on a tangent about it? Brianwilly asked what metas could do that Batman or his team couldn't, I did. You also seemed to overlook where I said that a meta would be able to spy on others WHEN THERE'S JAMMING EQUIPMENT AT WORK!!!! Look it up, it's right there.:mad: My favorite part is where you say that Batman doesn't like his privacy invaded and how he would never do it to anyone. And then you go and say He has no problem with spying on people at a great distance. Between himself, several of his acting agents (Robin, Batgirl, Batwoman and Nightwing) and Oracle, there isn't much that can be kept from Batman. But that's just Bats' modus operandi, even if it makes him seem like a big ol' hypocrite. And btw, I don't know if it's still canon, but after Supes learned Bats' identity Bats went and did the same to him; so, no Batman isn't above invading people's privacy (adn even his friends) if he wants to.

Oi!:whatever: Again with the whole superpowers=no brains and no powers=intelligence. Look, J'onn J'onnz has a boatload of powers and he was a detective for a good long while. He used his powers AND BRAIN to solve crimes. So did Ralph Dibny. So did the Atom/Ray Palmer. And so have other superpowered individuals. It's not human exclusive, it's not Bat Family exclusive and it's not exclusive to Gotham. The way you're making your arguments is to make it sound like if anyone with powers who crosses the Gotham city limits suddenly becomes this lumbering oaf who doesn't know how to fight crime regardless of their crime fighting style. I've already said how superpowers would aid in an investigation, we've seen it in canon. You want to argue that superpowers aren't needed because Batman and his crew have intruments to simulate these powers (huh, interesting), but yet, people with those powers shouldn't be allowed in Gotham. And this is logical how? Because people with powers are automatically dumber than people without? That's what I get from: "Not every criminal that Batman hunts down, does their dirty business in the public eye.These are the kind of people that require more than metahuman power, to be dealt with." Funny, I've seen other comic books where superheroes catch criminals doing things on the sly ALL the time.:D

Look, I get it that people want to keep Gotham as "real" as possible. I get that the only metas they want is the villains so that Batman, the ordinary human, can beat the heck out of them and have a bigger victory. I get that they see Batman as the only authority to dictate who can or can't be in Gotham. I get all of those things and others that keep the Bat-World batty and not super. What I don't get is how come there's so much resistance to the possibility that people with powers, even minor ones, can't come to Gotham or fight crime "the Batman way".
 
Alan Scott should kick Batmans ass and take Gotham back.
 
Tropico said:
Do you people read my whole posts or just read one section and go on a tangent about it?

No, but I clearly did quote a section of your post, which should indicate that I was responding to that comment. I think that idea is pretty clear. So why you made your initial statement, is beyond me. And it is true that Batman doesn't like his privacy violated. He doesn't want folks snooping in the batcave, or looking under his mask, or invading his mind. That is a whole lot different than listening in on criminal conversation. Or did we forget that the entire reason Batman got his mind wiped, is because he started to have a physical fight with the JLA, over wiping a criminals mind. Even though Dr.Light committed rape, against one of his friends wife, Batman was still against it. That should tell you something about how Batman would feel about using a telepath against even his enemies. So I think you are arguing moot point, versus obvious and recent characterization.
 

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