BvS About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

excellent analysis

 

honestly I was half thinking that myself during that scene... I was like "they just showed his dad dying, how is he still alive in the office building"

my fear in the moment was that the dream scene was just that... a dream... and that they were reconnting his parents/or at least his fathers death, to have them die during the Superman/Zod battle instead

it wasn't til like the second or third time he yelled "Jack" that I realized he wasn't saying "dad"

 

Maybe the whole thing about feminine=passive/compassionate/caring and masculine=aggressive/violent/strong is a stereotype, but that's how humanity perceived itself for ages. It can't be denied.

I didn't really get your point about Superman and Wonder woman. For me, dominating feminine part of Superman turns him into a victim in this film. And, ultimately, it saves Batman. Compassion, care and protection - something, that Batman abandoned. So, like Miss Lois Lane mentioned, it can be summed up as lack of feminine influence. I don't think anything else can be said about it.

 

This is a great analysis, and probably pretty close to what was intended by Snyder.

It wouldn't surprise me, considering how much he talks about how he tries to put empowering female characters in his films.

However, I think there were a LOT of problems with the execution.
Both Martha's were very much 'women in refrigerators' in this movie.

Now, yes, Bruce's parents, yes both, have ALWAYS been used this, dying in service of his story.
However, as much as they tried to emphasize the importance of his mother, they still ended up doing it through Thomas. Martha's death is made, not only in service of Bruce, but also in service of Thomas.

Martha's death is made more about what Thomas losses by it. So, even in trying to give her her due, they can't help but do it through her man.

Hell, even the way the scene is shot, JDM is much more the focus. Many didn't even recognize Lauren Cohan, but definitely recognized JDM.

Now, that may have been part of an intentional attempt to misdirect, make you focused more on his father, not realizing that the scene, for the totality of the film, is about her.
But like I said, the execution failed in this, IMO, given that she ends up just dying in service of the men.

Then of course there's Martha Kent's kidnapping and torture.


This kind of thing is frustrating, because this is kind of the nature of creating character drama in this kind of film/story. The main character's loved one's are put in harms way. It's the emotional drive for the stakes of so much of this kind of story telling.

So, how do you do this kind of story beat withOUT falling into the 'women in refrigerator's' territory?

Honestly, I haven't a ****ing clue. That's a question for better storytellers than I. Actually, that's a stupid low bar. That's for better storytellers, period.

 

It makes him stay good indeed, yet it makes him a victim of Batman and Lex. He doesn't want to hurt them, he doesn't was to hurt anyone. He's quite passive. He lacks aggression. They took advantage of that.

 

Speak for youself. Once I saw Cohan's face, I thought, "Dayum she's really pretty," and have been focusing on her the whole time. When she was about to get popped by the gun and pearl sequence, I had to cringe my eyes because I thought she was gonna get a headshot or popped in the face, judging from the angle of the gun and necklace.

I think that would be a tough story to tell, or sell, since in this genre of comics, the audience is pretty male dominated. I think that's one of the reasons why it took so long for WW and other female heroes to have their big screen solo debuts, because a reverse in that story with a "men in the fridge" dynamic might be a hard sell for a generally male dominated audience. Not until recently with the progressive movement and feminism, and the growing number of female fans in the comic book world, was a solo female led CBM suerphero movie was more viable. Even then, I have a hard time imagine Chris Pine to be held in that sort of situation

 

Thinking a bit further made me realize something. As long as woman presents in Superman's life (Lois, especially Martha), he demonstrates exceptional care, friendliness and desire to help, protect, even sacrifice. But let's take a look at moments, where he's about to lose his mother - exceptional rage and aggression. Losing mother, losing mother, losing mother. It goes through the whole film. Something, that happened to Batman and didn't happen to Superman. How Superman retained humanity and Batman lost it with time.

I don't know, maybe I'm just drunk.

 

SMH.

The issue with 'women in refrigerators' is not (just) the fact that it is predominantly women (male characters have been treated similarly, just far less often) it's the execution.

 

I think a better display of the similarities and differences between the masculine and feminine characters would be a training montage in which Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman wrestled while oiled up.

 

Great analysis.

A true gem in the cesspool BvS forums have become.

 

Agree completely. Diana's world doesn't have our gender stereotypes - I am interested to see if this will be explored in her solo film. I don't see how it can't be, especially given the time period it's set in.

True - Lara (like every single character in a long-running comic ever!) has had a lot of ups and downs in relation to her caste/status - although I felt that MoS Lara was at least Jor-El's equal.[/quote]

That one's passed me by, I've just never caught it for some reason. Thinking on it though, his first (and imo best) film, the remake of 'Dawn of the Dead' had a fantastic lead in Ana. It was a great example of how to have a female lead and not mention that she's female, she got to be the way male leads get to be all the time - she's just a person going about her life then BAM!Zombies! and she has to deal with it. She's a great character.

I felt that Bruce was the epitome of toxic masculinity during the fight. He looked like a bully, plain and simple. And yes, both Lex and Bruce took advantage of his good nature - Clark had the moral victory but look where that got him. The tableaux of Lois, Bruce and Diana with his body was beautiful, but in my head a cut scene exists where afterwards Lois punches Bruce in the face. Or even better Diana does it for her. Even by the end I was still giving Bruce the side-eye. Yes, Clark saved Bruce, but was he worth saving? Ahem, I will stop now. I have a lot of feelings about this and here is not the place to vent them

 

very good analysis Lamboman.

this maybe my favorite thread in the bvs forums so far.

though i had big problems with the execution of the movie, i think the subtext and underlying themes you bring up are one of the best things about bvs.

i sorta picked up on this subtext too while i watched the movie, but i was not really able to put it together in my mind. but your analysis is able to put it all into words and build a clearer picture.

snyder and the writers must've to put all this in there on purpose.

 

Now that you mentioned it, I totally feel like Bruce deserved a good punch in the face. As for was he worth saving - please be excited for SS and JLP1.

 

I am looking forward to SS and very excited for WW - but nervous about JL1. I really hope that Barry has prevented a Knightmare scenario by reaching out to Bruce - and to give Bruce credit, it looks like assembling the JL will do that - but I am so nervous of an Injustice scenario happening in JL1. I will full on rage if that happens.

I've had another thought about Lex (why?!! He's ahead of Bruce in the punch stakes!) - he's hostile to everyone, but am I looking in to things too much to think he's hostile to women in particular? He refers to Martha as a witch, Lois has a 'tiny little mind' and he is particularly hostile to Senator Finch. It could be he'd be that way with a man who tried to stop him too, but am I looking with my everyday sexism glasses on or did he really not like being foiled by a woman - hence his particularly unpleasant 'gift' to her?

See also his treatment of Mercy - he let her, a loyal ally, die along with everyone else.

 

maybe lex is a cypher for women-hating male nerds and geeks.
it's sorta like snyder's way of bashing the cbm fan base.

and since u've pointed out, yea, he was particularly nasty towards the women in this movie.

or maybe i'm reading too much into this.

 

Did you like BvS?

Also, Snyder said, "when he's back - who knows what he will be" - maybe there's a chance for Superman to go evil, but it renders the future vision pointless. Because, by all rules of storytelling, what Bruce should do is to try to prevent that from happening. So my guess - somewhere in the future this gun will make a shot and Bruce will have to make a choice, or he will have to fix it somehow. Who knows... With Snyder and Terrio - anything is possible. I try to stay open-minded and not to fall into preconceptions towards future DC movies. I just hope for a good well-told story. And if, for some reason, it will require Superman to go evil, let it be. Because for me personally, story is more important that being faithful to something of the past. More important than worship a certain characterization.

Really interesting observation. I kinda haven't wrapped my head around it yet... Maybe it doesn't hold any significance. Les is just being ruthless and all. Mother theme is strong with Bruce and Clark, but Lex? I don't know.

 

I think I heard Eisenberg saying something like that. Probably a joke. That Lex is parody on angry fanboys or something.

 

Thank you for this.

This thread confuses me. I thought we were all supposed to come here and **** on your thesis. That's what all the cool kids do, right?

 

Completely off-topic Michael Shannon gif squee!