BvS About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

[GREEN =w= DAY]

excellent analysis

 

[LamboMan]

This is a very interesting observation, since it brought me back to Tomas Wayne's transformation into a hyper aggressive, gun-toting Batman in Flashpoint. He lost his world in Martha, and Bruce of course, so there was no feminine side at all in his life to balance out that rage. I'm not entirely sure what happens with Alfred in the Flashpoint timeline, but even the mainstream Batman has an Alfred that represents a more balanced view of feminine vs masculine, hence maybe that's why we see a slightly more balanced Bruce Batman compared to Thomas Batman.

That's a great connection you made with Flashpoint Thomas! The more we think about it the more we see that these themes and story points that so many people think do not belong in this movie, are actually essential to the characters in the comics and so it really makes this movie super comic accurate and faithful to the characters whom a lot of people don't seem to understand fully.

This topic gives me life. This is what I want to see on this board, not discussions about how many people may lose their jobs and will have to commit suicide.

I have more thoughts to add, but I'll do it tomorrow. I have to go for now.

Thanks for the support again and please do! Can't wait for your thoughts! Your initial impression really helped me refine the post earlier!

A friend of mine saw last night and he didn't like that ONLY Martha Wayne died.

I was like WHAT???!!!!

He thought Thomas Wayne was the guy at the building Superman destroyed fighting Zod.

Because on the phone It sounds like Bruce said, Dad.

I said no, he said "jack" who is one of his underling in Wayne Enterprise.

He still believes that was his dad because the cemetery scene only focused on Martha Wayne.

I was like dude go watch it again!!

That is absolutely hilarious. Thomas and Jack didn't even look anything alike.

Maybe it has something to do with the very old, and more conservative Kryptonian society. Maybe that explains why Laura didn't do more. It was a pretty repressive society, where people fit into certain class roles.

That is a nice viewpoint and a good possibe explanation!

I think you found a key theme of this movie! I never thought of any of this but what you say makes complete sense and is logical! I remember the fist scene because that is something that never is presented regarding Bruce's father.

This must have been mentioned but I think what bothers many people is that Superman is 100% right about Batman in the beginning of this film. He is a vigilante. Think of those sex slaves that Batman frees, they are terrified of him. A hero is meant to inspire the good, not make them afraid. Batman is lost and broken. Superman saves him.

Most Batman people don't like superman - he is too much of a goody two shoes - but in this movie he is the one that is right. This is in contrast to the DKR where Superman is the one that is wrong.

Sorry about he deviation but great job with the mother/father angle!

True, the more I think about it, the more I feel this was the actual central theme to the movie that describes their motivations and ideals better than anything else. When I first saw the movie I thought that the fight being resolved by "Martha" wasn't a resolution or reconciliation of Superman's and Batman's ideals and philosophies since I was looking at it through the lens that Superman's problem was Bruce's violent methods and Batman's problem was Superman's liability to become evil.

Funnily, that is actually what it is and yet when we dive deeper we see that those very motivations come from the thought processes in their minds that have been molded through a lifetime of influences from the feminine and masculine and especially the influence of their respective Martha's in their lives or lack thereof.

And it's beautiful.

Snyder made a movie celebrating the empowerment of women, Sucker Punch. If you watch that movie through that lens you will really enjoy. Unfortunately critics see chicks in short clothes and called it exposition, where it is pitched at empowerment.
Snyder clearly sees women as a powerful force. Not surprising given the role his wife plays in his life.

True, Snyder has always depicted women or the wrongs that this world and society of ours commits against them in the most unabashed and unfiltered way. IMHO, why Sucker Punch is such a positive movie for women is because we are faced with the reality of the world and of how men actually treat women in this world and are challenged to accept that truth, no matter how harsh or ugly it seems. Only on the day we accept that, can we start doing things to stop it. Those who can't see that in the movie are in denial of the reality of the situation in this world.

Zack intentionally showed women being abused, being locked away, being exploited for their bodies, being victims of violence both domestic and external, being objects of desire rather than people with feelings and thoughts and being slaves who then finally take agency for their own lives and fight for their own freedom from that system and thus empower themselves by taking that power.

And when you really dive into it further there are so many themes to that movie it's astounding. The 5 stages of grief from the "Kübler-Ross model", the sucker punch of the movie where Baby Doll is the guardian and not the story's actual focus and finally the gender neutral rousing monologue at the end of the film which tells you that "you have the power, now fight!"

That movie is another masterpiece from Snyder and I feel it's his most true work of art since the entire concept and the story come from his own mind and that of his significant other, instead of from established stories and graphic novels.

On this point, I have to disagree. Quite clearly, Superman's first "world" was Krypton. He doesn't come to the realization that Lois is his world until the end of the film. He even states right after the Capitol bombing that the symbol of the house of El means hope - on his world, Krypton, which doesn't exist anymore. So that was his world. But, by the end of the film, he comes to the realization that Lois is his world. Martha is his special lady, as Lex put it, but she wasn''t his world. Lois is, which is the same thing we see in the Knightmare sequence.

Superman was a loner and was alienated most of his life. He had a single friend in his childhood, Pete Ross, who is never focused on in MOS, might have had Lana Lang in his life growing up but even she is not focused on or brought up after the bus scene.

We see him moving from place to place, living in the shadows with false identities. He may have had a fling with that girl in the diner or she may have been his friend, but even they were not so attached since Supes left the diner permanently at a moments notice.

Therefore it is safe to conclude that such a person from the age of about 16 to his 30's who has lost his father at 16, would value his mother over any other person on the planet, until Lois comes along.

Even the classic Superman doesn't keep too many friends until he reaches Justice League level where he becomes close to Batman whom he considers his best friend. The only friend he had before that was Jimmy.

Superman is inherently a loner and an outcast and feels alone in this world which is why he is always shown to be so happy when he finds out about the existence of people or other beings from Krypton since he doesn't feel like the "Last son of Krypton" and the last survivor of an extinct species at those times. He feels like he belongs somewhere and in the absence of those times, the only place he ever felt like he belonged was with his parents and with Lois.

So coming from that angle, we can clearly see how Martha was his world, meaning somewhere he belonged and felt loved and connected to humanity, before Lois came along.

In TDKRises a central aspect is Bruce's mother's pearls. If we want to look closely at it, we could say that it's apart of breathing life into Bruce again, because it's apart of the hint that Bruce is still alive. I noticed this in the movie, how Martha was important to Bruce now in this it. Have a very great day everyone!

God bless everyone!

Interesting observation! Do you mean to say that the pearl that fell with Bruce into the cave was an indication of his feminine side being alive even after losing his mother?

I find it quite hard to believe though that his first "world" is Krypton, a dead planet that he never knew, probably has no emotional attachment to aside from a hologram of his father, telling him that symbol means hope. I think "world" is meant more as his pillar of strength and humanity, and his belief in good, rolled up into a person he cares more than anything else. That was what Martha was to Jonathan, and that is what Martha and Lois is to Clark.

Hit the nail right on the head!

excellent analysis

Thanks a lot! Glad you liked it!

 

[Spider-Fan83]

A friend of mine saw last night and he didn't like that ONLY Martha Wayne died.

I was like WHAT???!!!!

He thought Thomas Wayne was the guy at the building Superman destroyed fighting Zod.

Because on the phone It sounds like Bruce said, Dad.

I said no, he said "jack" who is one of his underling in Wayne Enterprise.

He still believes that was his dad because the cemetery scene only focused on Martha Wayne.

I was like dude go watch it again!!

honestly I was half thinking that myself during that scene... I was like "they just showed his dad dying, how is he still alive in the office building"

my fear in the moment was that the dream scene was just that... a dream... and that they were reconnting his parents/or at least his fathers death, to have them die during the Superman/Zod battle instead

it wasn't til like the second or third time he yelled "Jack" that I realized he wasn't saying "dad"

 

[OutOfBoose]

Maybe the whole thing about feminine=passive/compassionate/caring and masculine=aggressive/violent/strong is a stereotype, but that's how humanity perceived itself for ages. It can't be denied.

I didn't really get your point about Superman and Wonder woman. For me, dominating feminine part of Superman turns him into a victim in this film. And, ultimately, it saves Batman. Compassion, care and protection - something, that Batman abandoned. So, like Miss Lois Lane mentioned, it can be summed up as lack of feminine influence. I don't think anything else can be said about it.

 

[LamboMan]

You've got me thinking - what about Lex's mother? Does he envy Clark for the fact that he has a loving mother? We hear nothing about Lex's mother, just hints at an abusive father. Bruce may not have had a mother figure after Martha died, but he had a loving father figure in Alfred. Lex had no mother figure (it seems) and a terrible father figure. Which I think further strengthens your point about the importance of balance between the (positive) masculine and feminine.

Hi MLL, I would like to ask for your permission to quote this response of yours and add it under a fourth point for "Lex Luthor" to my OP. I will give you full credit since it will be a direct quote.

Maybe the whole thing about feminine=passive/compassionate/caring and masculine=aggressive/violent/strong is a stereotype, but that's how humanity perceived itself for ages. It can't be denied.

I didn't really get your point about Superman and Wonder woman. For me, dominating feminine part of Superman turns him into a victim in this film. And, ultimately, it saves Batman. Compassion, care and protection - something, that Batman abandoned. So, like Miss Lois Lane mentioned, it can be summed up as lack of feminine influence. I don't think anything else can be said about it.

I don't understand how his dominant feminine makes him the victim? Thought it was the thing that makes him stay good in the face of all adversity and save Batman and the world.

 

[gdw]

This is a great analysis, and probably pretty close to what was intended by Snyder.

It wouldn't surprise me, considering how much he talks about how he tries to put empowering female characters in his films.

However, I think there were a LOT of problems with the execution.
Both Martha's were very much 'women in refrigerators' in this movie.

Now, yes, Bruce's parents, yes both, have ALWAYS been used this, dying in service of his story.
However, as much as they tried to emphasize the importance of his mother, they still ended up doing it through Thomas. Martha's death is made, not only in service of Bruce, but also in service of Thomas.

Martha's death is made more about what Thomas losses by it. So, even in trying to give her her due, they can't help but do it through her man.

Hell, even the way the scene is shot, JDM is much more the focus. Many didn't even recognize Lauren Cohan, but definitely recognized JDM.

Now, that may have been part of an intentional attempt to misdirect, make you focused more on his father, not realizing that the scene, for the totality of the film, is about her.
But like I said, the execution failed in this, IMO, given that she ends up just dying in service of the men.

Then of course there's Martha Kent's kidnapping and torture.


This kind of thing is frustrating, because this is kind of the nature of creating character drama in this kind of film/story. The main character's loved one's are put in harms way. It's the emotional drive for the stakes of so much of this kind of story telling.

So, how do you do this kind of story beat withOUT falling into the 'women in refrigerator's' territory?

Honestly, I haven't a ****ing clue. That's a question for better storytellers than I. Actually, that's a stupid low bar. That's for better storytellers, period.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I don't understand how his dominant feminine makes him the victim? Thought it was the thing that makes him stay good in the face of all adversity and save Batman and the world.

It makes him stay good indeed, yet it makes him a victim of Batman and Lex. He doesn't want to hurt them, he doesn't was to hurt anyone. He's quite passive. He lacks aggression. They took advantage of that.

 

[LamboMan]

It makes him stay good indeed, yet it makes him a victim of Batman and Lex. He doesn't want to hurt them, he doesn't was to hurt anyone. He's quite passive. He lacks aggression. They took advantage of that.

Oh ok, that way. Yeah, that's true but are you referring to Superman's character in BVS specifically or that all his incarnations have had too much of the feminine in him and do think that's a good or a bad thing?

 

[Legendver2]

Hell, even the way the scene is shot, JDM is much more the focus. Many didn't even recognize Lauren Cohan, but definitely recognized JDM.

Speak for youself. Once I saw Cohan's face, I thought, "Dayum she's really pretty," and have been focusing on her the whole time. When she was about to get popped by the gun and pearl sequence, I had to cringe my eyes because I thought she was gonna get a headshot or popped in the face, judging from the angle of the gun and necklace.

This kind of thing is frustrating, because this is kind of the nature of creating character drama in this kind of film/story. The main character's loved one's are put in harms way. It's the emotional drive for the stakes of so much of this kind of story telling.

So, how do you do this kind of story beat withOUT falling into the 'women in refrigerator's' territory?

Honestly, I haven't a ****ing clue. That's a question for better storytellers than I. Actually, that's a stupid low bar. That's for better storytellers, period.

I think that would be a tough story to tell, or sell, since in this genre of comics, the audience is pretty male dominated. I think that's one of the reasons why it took so long for WW and other female heroes to have their big screen solo debuts, because a reverse in that story with a "men in the fridge" dynamic might be a hard sell for a generally male dominated audience. Not until recently with the progressive movement and feminism, and the growing number of female fans in the comic book world, was a solo female led CBM suerphero movie was more viable. Even then, I have a hard time imagine Chris Pine to be held in that sort of situation

 

[OutOfBoose]

Oh ok, that way. Yeah, that's true but are you referring to Superman's character in BVS specifically or that all his incarnations have had too much of the feminine in him and do think that's a good or a bad thing?

Thinking a bit further made me realize something. As long as woman presents in Superman's life (Lois, especially Martha), he demonstrates exceptional care, friendliness and desire to help, protect, even sacrifice. But let's take a look at moments, where he's about to lose his mother - exceptional rage and aggression. Losing mother, losing mother, losing mother. It goes through the whole film. Something, that happened to Batman and didn't happen to Superman. How Superman retained humanity and Batman lost it with time.

I don't know, maybe I'm just drunk.

 

[gdw]

Speak for youself. Once I saw Cohan's face, I thought, "Dayum she's really pretty," and have been focusing on her the whole time.

SMH.

When she was about to get popped by the gun and pearl sequence, I had to cringe my eyes because I thought she was gonna get a headshot or popped in the face, judging from the angle of the gun and necklace.


I think that would be a tough story to tell, or sell, since in this genre of comics, the audience is pretty male dominated. I think that's one of the reasons why it took so long for WW and other female heroes to have their big screen solo debuts, because a reverse in that story with a "men in the fridge" dynamic might be a hard sell for a generally male dominated audience. Not until recently with the progressive movement and feminism, and the growing number of female fans in the comic book world, was a solo female led CBM suerphero movie was more viable. Even then, I have a hard time imagine Chris Pine to be held in that sort of situation

The issue with 'women in refrigerators' is not (just) the fact that it is predominantly women (male characters have been treated similarly, just far less often) it's the execution.

 

[InspecktahDeck]

I think a better display of the similarities and differences between the masculine and feminine characters would be a training montage in which Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman wrestled while oiled up.

 

[KillerWolf]

I hope the title is not too spoilery, I tried to keep it as simple as I could.

So I got back from my second viewing yesterday and it was an amazing experience for sure but there's something that I feel like no one I have heard or read is talking about: The loss and revival of the 'feminine' in the characters in BVS and its balance with the 'masculine'.

I picked up on this after thinking about it after my first viewing.

So to put it simply I strongly think there is an undercurrent in the story about the concepts of the 'masculine' and the 'feminine' and how they oppose and go hand in hand with each other.

By 'masculine' I mean the tendency for aggression, anger, fight instead of flight. By 'feminine' I mean the tendency for peace, calm, good. It does not relate to gender but to the psychology of the character. We all have a masculine and a feminine side to us.


1. BATMAN

At the beginning of the film we see something new, something that no other depiction of Thomas Wayne has done before. His first instinct was to throw a punch at the attacker instead of backing off and trying to calm the guy down or trying to peacefully handle the situation. The aggression of both the shooter and Thomas Wayne lead to the death of Martha (the masculine destroyed the feminine), and that aggression carried on to Bruce and guided him for the rest of his life (the masculine also destroyed Bruce's life).

This was the first indication of the dominant masculine in Bruce's life.

Next we see the dream scene where a monstrous man bat emerges from Martha's grave. This to me, is indicative of the fact that Bruce never managed to cope with the loss of his mother, something that I have personally never seen being focused on in Batman's stories.

In Nolan's Batman movies Thomas Wayne was brought up but never Martha, the flashback scene shows Thomas talking to Bruce and explaining what he does, but Martha never gets to say a word.

In BVS it is clearly pointed out that Bruce has always lacked the feminine in his life, the loss of a mother that he could never cope with so he never talks about it or focuses on it, but it exists as a looming 'ghost' in the back of his mind.

Something that shows this clearly is when he saves that little girl and then his first question to her is not "Where are your parents?" but "Where is your mother?" and then he says "I'm going to help you find her, we'll get you back to your mother."

Another thing is that when little Bruce shouts "Nooo" when his parents are killed, he turns to look at his mother on the ground instead of his father or at both of them.

The pearl that falls from her necklace into the sewer falls next to Bruce when he is in the cave in the dream. That is what he remembers most clearly.

It seems he may have gotten over the loss of his father, but he never got over the death of his mother. To elaborate, since he had Alfred (a father figure) to guide him during his formative years and all throughout his life thereon, he would have definitely had a lot more help in coping with the loss of his father than his mother.

When he refers to Thomas (to the masculine) he says "I'm older now than my father ever was, this may be the only thing I do that matters". That's when he mentions how his father told him that his ancestors were hunters (aggression, masculine).

He is able to talk about his his father calmly but seems to have recurring nightmares of his mother, never about HER directly, but about the loss that her death stands for.

There is clearly a reconciliation with his masculine side but a loss of his feminine side which becomes all the more apparent when he becomes powerless and enraged and starts to cross lines that he never did before and when he starts losing himself in his singular goal of killing Superman without ever taking pause to think about what he is doing.

That is why he is so taken aback when someone mentions Martha, not only because she was his mother but because it is a loss, the affects of which even he doesn't acknowledge.

When Superman says "Save Martha" and "You're letting Martha die" or something to that effect, Batman is instantly snapped back to the loss that he could never cope with, the real nightmare that has haunted him all his life and that has made him go further and further away from the feminine. He gave his life up to battle crime, it was his coping mechanism but in the end he realised it was all for nothing. Neither could he stop crime and make Gotham a better place nor could he ever change what had happened with his parents even though he tried to fix it with his actions for 20 years. By becoming blind with rage and almost killing Superman, he truly was "letting Martha die" since he had suppressed his losses and the feminine, the good, and became the very thing he fought against all his life - the overpowering and uncontrollable masculine. But hearing his mother's name reminded him of why he started fighting crime in the first place (to do good) and brought him back from the edge.

He realises not only that Supes is actually just a man after all, but that this man also has a mother who is in danger and whom he is helpless to save. Bruce sees his younger self in Superman at that moment and that is when he comes to terms with the loss, lets the feminine come back to him and start guiding his actions.

The fact that Bruce is the one "saving Martha" is the most beautiful moment of the character arc for me since this shows him finally being able to do something that helps him come to terms with the loss of his own Martha and to cope with that lifelong suppressed pain.


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2. SUPERMAN

Superman was always a momma's boy. Even though in MOS the feminine and the masculine in Clark's life were balanced by the existence of both his parents, he was closer to his mother than his father, even if he loved them both equally.

It becomes super apparent when Zod attacks her and Superman comes in at full speed and takes him away with so much anger. Once again that is something that has not explicitly been shown in the comics or cartoons, atleast to my knowledge. If Superman's parents are in danger, then it's both his parents, never just his mother. Pa Kent has been in mortal danger or has died but Martha never has.

In MOS the 'masculine' definitely played a bigger role and so Superman tended to go towards the single mother that he knew instead of the two kind and peaceful but authoritative father figures that he had to guide him on his path.

In BVS, even though Supes has Lois, that "special lady in his life is his mother." (oh how I love Lex and his lines!) She is the one constant from his childhood, the one thing he can always go back to and he does when he is confused and needs some direction in his life. SHE is his true 'Fortress of Solitude' and that may be why we haven't yet seen the traditional FOS in Snyder's movies yet.

Funnily, Martha tells Clark to "be none of it, you don't owe this world a thing." I feel that scene is indicative of the confusion between the masculine and the feminine that Superman is going through, he wants to be good and do good and take the peaceful path but he is also pretty disappointed and disgruntled, which we can clearly see when they show Clark in his apartment at two points. First, when he comes into the bathroom and tells Lois he doesn't care about what people think he did and the second when he is watching the news and they are saying bad things about Superman. It is also shown when he goes to save Lois in the desert and tackles that terrorist in the most agressive of ways showing his disregard for a peaceful use of his powers (masculine), even though he is trying to do good (feminine).

This is also very apparent in his "No one stays good" scene when he is being torn apart by the choice in front of him, try to get the Batman to help him or to fight him for Lex. He is being torn apart by the masculine and the feminine. His mother's life is on the line so rational thinking is out of the window, even if it is just momentarily. Thankfully, since Superman is a very strong character and can stay on the right path in the most adverse of situations, he chooses not to fight and to convince the Batman to help him and only fights when his hand is forced and even then he fights only to stop the fight.

In the end his connection to the feminine wins out and he uses his last bits of strength to make sure Batman realises that he is about to let his mother die, which he cares about more in that moment, regardless of whether he ends up dying himself.

Lois was "his world" in the end but his first "world" was his mother. Lois was to Clark what Martha was to Pa Kent, a steadying rock and peaceful and loving retreat that helps him restore faith in himself and his actions. This makes Superman a very human character since this is what normally happens with most families. The boy's world is his mother and when he grows up she is replaced by his significant other. The feminine in a man's life is what keeps him steady and good much more easily than without it.

A last point to note: In MOS we have two fathers (Jor-El and Jonathan) at the forefront, while in BVS we have the story revolve around two mothers (Martha and Martha). The focus in MOS was more on the masculine while Superman was stepping into the world and taking on super powered foes so he needed the agression and the 'fight'. In BVS, both Batman and Superman were propelled by their masculine side to the point of either pure rage (in Batman's case) or confusion and self-doubt(in Superman's case), so they needed that feminine to come into their lives and balance things out and make things right again.


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3. WONDER WOMAN


Diana Prince is the most interesting character here since she is the woman with more masculine than feminine tendencies when she fights but with feminine tendencies when it comes to truly resolving conflicts. She is the one truly balanced character in this movie. While both Batman and Superman are trying to find their balance and do by the end, here we have Wonder Woman who is already balanced from the very beginning.

Her laugh when she is fighting Doomsday screams masculine while her interactions with Bruce scream feminine. When she says "I didn't steal it, just borrowed it" she shows that she comes in peace and is one of the good guys even though her actions make it seem slightly to the contrary. Diana has always been a very balanced character when it comes to these two psychological traits and that is seen in this movie too.

Zack Snyder always depicts the women in his movies in a powerful and balanced manner and shows them take agency for their actions and Wonder Woman was no exception to that. Queen Gorgo, Baby Doll, Silk Spectre, Lara Jor-El, Martha Kent and Faora-Ul are all powerful women in their own right.

I don't have much more to say about her since she never had any interaction with Martha and since what I said above was the extent of her role in the movie.

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In the end I'd like to conclude by saying that neither the masculine nor the feminine are better or worse than each other, both are needed in equal measure. This is something that is sort of a recurring theme in all of Zack Snyder's movies, the women are always depicted as powerful and effective alongside the men, while the men are depicted as sensitive and insightful alongside the women. It's the fluctuation and balance of the two that is the most important thing and which makes me appreciate Zack's movies and his characters a lot.

So what do you think?

Great analysis.

A true gem in the cesspool BvS forums have become.

 

[LamboMan]

Thinking a bit further made me realize something. As long as woman presents in Superman's life (Lois, especially Martha), he demonstrates exceptional care, friendliness and desire to help, protect, even sacrifice. But let's take a look at moments, where he's about to lose his mother - exceptional rage and aggression. Losing mother, losing mother, losing mother. It goes through the whole film. Something, that happened to Batman and didn't happen to Superman. How Superman retained humanity and Batman lost it with time.

I don't know, maybe I'm just drunk.

Great points! I like you when you're drunk, I hope you never run OutOfBoose.........sorry, I just had to.

I think a better display of the similarities and differences between the masculine and feminine characters would be a training montage in which Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman wrestled while oiled up.

....or trolling.

Great analysis.

A true gem in the cesspool BvS forums have become.

Thanks a lot for your appreciation mate!

 

[Miss Lois Lane]

(on WW)She is the one truly balanced character in this movie.

For Diana, and her sisters in Themyscira, violence and agency are feminine... there might not even be a gender binary in Themyscira, so the way they conceive of gender becomes even more foreign to the ways we are trained to think.

Agree completely. Diana's world doesn't have our gender stereotypes - I am interested to see if this will be explored in her solo film. I don't see how it can't be, especially given the time period it's set in.

Maybe it has something to do with the very old, and more conservative Kryptonian society. Maybe that explains why Laura didn't do more. It was a pretty repressive society, where people fit into certain class roles.

True - Lara (like every single character in a long-running comic ever!) has had a lot of ups and downs in relation to her caste/status - although I felt that MoS Lara was at least Jor-El's equal.[/quote]

Snyder made a movie celebrating the empowerment of women, Sucker Punch.

That one's passed me by, I've just never caught it for some reason. Thinking on it though, his first (and imo best) film, the remake of 'Dawn of the Dead' had a fantastic lead in Ana. It was a great example of how to have a female lead and not mention that she's female, she got to be the way male leads get to be all the time - she's just a person going about her life then BAM!Zombies! and she has to deal with it. She's a great character.

For me, dominating feminine part of Superman turns him into a victim in this film. And, ultimately, it saves Batman.

...it makes him a victim of Batman and Lex. He doesn't want to hurt them, he doesn't was to hurt anyone. He's quite passive. He lacks aggression. They took advantage of that.

I felt that Bruce was the epitome of toxic masculinity during the fight. He looked like a bully, plain and simple. And yes, both Lex and Bruce took advantage of his good nature - Clark had the moral victory but look where that got him. The tableaux of Lois, Bruce and Diana with his body was beautiful, but in my head a cut scene exists where afterwards Lois punches Bruce in the face. Or even better Diana does it for her. Even by the end I was still giving Bruce the side-eye. Yes, Clark saved Bruce, but was he worth saving? Ahem, I will stop now. I have a lot of feelings about this and here is not the place to vent them

 

[chintai80]

very good analysis Lamboman.

this maybe my favorite thread in the bvs forums so far.

though i had big problems with the execution of the movie, i think the subtext and underlying themes you bring up are one of the best things about bvs.

i sorta picked up on this subtext too while i watched the movie, but i was not really able to put it together in my mind. but your analysis is able to put it all into words and build a clearer picture.

snyder and the writers must've to put all this in there on purpose.

 

[LamboMan]

That one's passed me by, I've just never caught it for some reason. Thinking on it though, his first (and imo best) film, the remake of 'Dawn of the Dead' had a fantastic lead in Ana. It was a great example of how to have a female lead and not mention that she's female, she got to be the way male leads get to be all the time - she's just a person going about her life then BAM!Zombies! and she has to deal with it. She's a great character.

I felt that Bruce was the epitome of toxic masculinity during the fight. He looked like a bully, plain and simple. And yes, both Lex and Bruce took advantage of his good nature - Clark had the moral victory but look where that got him. The tableaux of Lois, Bruce and Diana with his body was beautiful, but in my head a cut scene exists where afterwards Lois punches Bruce in the face. Or even better Diana does it for her. Even by the end I was still giving Bruce the side-eye. Yes, Clark saved Bruce, but was he worth saving? Ahem, I will stop now. I have a lot of feelings about this and here is not the place to vent them

That's a great point about DOTD that I hadn't realised till now! Ana really was the male lead while that guy she liked was the secondary or even female lead. Great observation!

And well, you ARE Lois Lane, if you punched Batman in your mind then he's been punched all right.

very good analysis Lamboman.

this maybe my favorite thread in the bvs forums so far.

though i had big problems with the execution of the movie, i think the subtext and underlying themes you bring up are one of the best things about bvs.

i sorta picked up on this subtext too while i watched the movie, but i was not really able to put it together in my mind. but your analysis is able to put it all into words and build a clearer picture.

snyder and the writers must've to put all this in there on purpose.

Thanks a lot for your appreciation!

I believe whatever Snyder and his writers have ever done, they've done on purpose.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I felt that Bruce was the epitome of toxic masculinity during the fight. He looked like a bully, plain and simple. And yes, both Lex and Bruce took advantage of his good nature - Clark had the moral victory but look where that got him. The tableaux of Lois, Bruce and Diana with his body was beautiful, but in my head a cut scene exists where afterwards Lois punches Bruce in the face. Or even better Diana does it for her. Even by the end I was still giving Bruce the side-eye. Yes, Clark saved Bruce, but was he worth saving? Ahem, I will stop now. I have a lot of feelings about this and here is not the place to vent them

Now that you mentioned it, I totally feel like Bruce deserved a good punch in the face. As for was he worth saving - please be excited for SS and JLP1.

 

[LamboMan]

Updated with a new point by Miss Lois Lane on Lex Luthor!

 

[Miss Lois Lane]

Now that you mentioned it, I totally feel like Bruce deserved a good punch in the face. As for was he worth saving - please be excited for SS and JLP1.

I am looking forward to SS and very excited for WW - but nervous about JL1. I really hope that Barry has prevented a Knightmare scenario by reaching out to Bruce - and to give Bruce credit, it looks like assembling the JL will do that - but I am so nervous of an Injustice scenario happening in JL1. I will full on rage if that happens.

I've had another thought about Lex (why?!! He's ahead of Bruce in the punch stakes!) - he's hostile to everyone, but am I looking in to things too much to think he's hostile to women in particular? He refers to Martha as a witch, Lois has a 'tiny little mind' and he is particularly hostile to Senator Finch. It could be he'd be that way with a man who tried to stop him too, but am I looking with my everyday sexism glasses on or did he really not like being foiled by a woman - hence his particularly unpleasant 'gift' to her?

See also his treatment of Mercy - he let her, a loyal ally, die along with everyone else.

 

[chintai80]

maybe lex is a cypher for women-hating male nerds and geeks.
it's sorta like snyder's way of bashing the cbm fan base.

and since u've pointed out, yea, he was particularly nasty towards the women in this movie.

or maybe i'm reading too much into this.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I am looking forward to SS and very excited for WW - but nervous about JL1. I really hope that Barry has prevented a Knightmare scenario by reaching out to Bruce - and to give Bruce credit, it looks like assembling the JL will do that - but I am so nervous of an Injustice scenario happening in JL1. I will full on rage if that happens.

Did you like BvS?

Also, Snyder said, "when he's back - who knows what he will be" - maybe there's a chance for Superman to go evil, but it renders the future vision pointless. Because, by all rules of storytelling, what Bruce should do is to try to prevent that from happening. So my guess - somewhere in the future this gun will make a shot and Bruce will have to make a choice, or he will have to fix it somehow. Who knows... With Snyder and Terrio - anything is possible. I try to stay open-minded and not to fall into preconceptions towards future DC movies. I just hope for a good well-told story. And if, for some reason, it will require Superman to go evil, let it be. Because for me personally, story is more important that being faithful to something of the past. More important than worship a certain characterization.

I've had another thought about Lex (why?!! He's ahead of Bruce in the punch stakes!) - he's hostile to everyone, but am I looking in to things too much to think he's hostile to women in particular? He refers to Martha as a witch, Lois has a 'tiny little mind' and he is particularly hostile to Senator Finch. It could be he'd be that way with a man who tried to stop him too, but am I looking with my everyday sexism glasses on or did he really not like being foiled by a woman - hence his particularly unpleasant 'gift' to her?

See also his treatment of Mercy - he let her, a loyal ally, die along with everyone else.

Really interesting observation. I kinda haven't wrapped my head around it yet... Maybe it doesn't hold any significance. Les is just being ruthless and all. Mother theme is strong with Bruce and Clark, but Lex? I don't know.

 

[OutOfBoose]

maybe lex is a cypher for women-hating male nerds and geeks.
it's sorta like snyder's way of bashing the cbm fan base.

and since u've pointed out, yea, he was particularly nasty towards the women in this movie.

or maybe i'm reading too much into this.

I think I heard Eisenberg saying something like that. Probably a joke. That Lex is parody on angry fanboys or something.

 

[Decepticonus]

Thank you for this.

This thread confuses me. I thought we were all supposed to come here and **** on your thesis. That's what all the cool kids do, right?

 

[Miss Lois Lane]

Great points! I like you when you're drunk, I hope you never run OutOfBoose.........sorry, I just had to.

Completely off-topic Michael Shannon gif squee!