BvS About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

[Mad Ones]

Really a very interesting viewpoint! But I don't understand how Superman wanting to do good can be hyper-masculine? Note that I wasn't talking about their physicality or their fight, but about the influences of those two things in their respective lives.

Thomas Wayne wanted to do good when he made the fist in an attempt to save his family. It failed and the movie shows us two men who take that gesture (the fist, the fight) to the extreme. Superheroes are part of a long tradition of pairing "doing good" with hypermasculinity, but don't usually interrogate the underside of that link.

 

[Corko]

I can't recommend Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader enough. It's a phenomenal heartfelt tribute to the character of Batman. One of my favorites.

I might check it out. Been trying to get into reading batman comics

 

[LamboMan]

Thomas Wayne wanted to do good when he made the fist in an attempt to save his family. It failed and the movie shows us two men who take that gesture (the fist, the fight) to the extreme. Superheroes are part of a long tradition of pairing "doing good" with hypermasculinity, but don't usually interrogate the underside of that link.

Nicely put!

I'm glad I posted this thread since now I'm able to find and see new viewpoints thanks to you guys.

I personally wouldn't call Thomas's 'fighting fire with fire' reaction 'doing good' particularly, but I totally see your point there. That was the intention even though it wasn't the outcome.

Do you feel that by the end of the movie, there is more of a balance in the masculine and feminine in Bats and Supes or is that a moot point due to the nature of the actions their supeheroics require?

 

[Miss Lois Lane]

Wow, that's a great point and I will admit the thought of Lex's mother hadn't crossed my mind! Funnily, the thought of Alfred helping Bruce cope with the loss of his father hadn't crossed my mind either haha. I would like to add the Alfred point to the OP, if you don't mind.

I don't mind at all. This is a refreshing discussion, with a lot of points to think about both in your OP and in the comments

 

[LamboMan]

I don't mind at all. This is a refreshing discussion, with a lot of points to think about both in your OP and in the comments

Thanks! And yes, I'm loving the discussion this thread has sparked too!

 

[Mad Ones]

Nicely put!

I'm glad I posted this thread since now I'm able to find and see new viewpoints thanks to you guys.

I personally wouldn't call Thomas's 'fighting fire with fire' reaction 'doing good' particularly, but I totally see your point there. That was the intention even though it wasn't the outcome.

Do you feel that by the end of the movie, there is more of a balance in the masculine and feminine in Bats and Supes or is that a moot point due to the nature of the actions their supeheroics require?

To be honest I feel like its moot, particularly within this movie (which is in line with the genre traditionally). It's part of large and complex discussion though.

If we are narrowly defining femininity as warmth and compassion, then perhaps this comes through at the end between Superman/Lois and in Batman [BLACKOUT]through the way he treats Superman's body[/BLACKOUT]. The problem is that the movie doesn't spend enough time developing women outside of being purely passive to get a definition of femininity as compassion. We never saw Martha's compassion since she just died. This definition of femininity in the movie is constructed more as the absence of masculinity, since that is well defined.

Again Wonder Woman is complicated (which is why I love her) because we interpret her as masculine but for her and her world that's femininity.

 

[Corko]

You've got me thinking - what about Lex's mother? Does he envy Clark for the fact that he has a loving mother? We hear nothing about Lex's mother, just hints at an abusive father. Bruce may not have had a mother figure after Martha died, but he had a loving father figure in Alfred. Lex had no mother figure (it seems) and a terrible father figure. Which I think further strengthens your point about the importance of balance between the (positive) masculine and feminine.

Never thought of Alfred being that. Great post. I hope we get to see more of a loving relationship between Alfred and Bruce in later movies. They seemed at odds mostly in this movie.

 

[Mad Ones]

Alfred is a bit more of a mother figure if we consider all of the stereotypical associations we have with motherhood outside of being a woman.

 

[LamboMan]

Never thought of Alfred being that. Great post. I hope we get to see more of a loving relationship between Alfred and Bruce in later movies. They seemed at odds mostly in this movie.

True, but Alfred has always been more of a gender neutral role, to me atleast, and that's what I saw in BVS too. He is the guiding and encouraging father figure as well as the protective and worrying mother figure.

I particularly loved how they worked together at the end and how Alfred helps Bats before he gets into the warehouse. They do work together in the Lex's party scene too, now that I think about it. They really had this humorous rapport going on in the entire movie and I loved that.

 

[LamboMan]

To be honest I feel like its moot, particularly within this movie (which is in line with the genre traditionally). It's part of large and complex discussion though.

If we are narrowly defining femininity as warmth and compassion, then perhaps this comes through at the end between Superman/Lois and in Batman [BLACKOUT]through the way he treats Superman's body[/BLACKOUT]. The problem is that the movie doesn't spend enough time developing women outside of being purely passive to get a definition of femininity as compassion. We never saw Martha's compassion since she just died. This definition of femininity in the movie is constructed more as the absence of masculinity, since that is well defined.

Again Wonder Woman is complicated (which is why I love her) because we interpret her as masculine but for her and her world that's femininity.

Good points again. I love the way you put that WW is actually not gender binary and we present our gender binary viewpoint on her. For her, being a warrior is being a warrior and being kind and loving is being kind and loving and that's what is normal for all themiscyran's so it has nothing to do with gender.

 

[Corko]

True, but Alfred has always been more of a gender neutral role, to me atleast, and that's what I saw in BVS too. He is the guiding and encouraging father figure as well as the protective and worrying mother figure.

I particularly loved how they worked together at the end and how Alfred helps Bats before he gets into the warehouse. They do work together in the Lex's party scene too, now that I think about it. They really had this humorous rapport going on in the entire movie and I loved that.

Gender neutral is a good way to describe it. Especially with how hands on in this he is yet I can totally see him fussing over bruce and dick like a mother hen ha. I wonder if Martha Kent and Alfred will ever interact together. Be funny if they flirted or something and Bruce and Clark were like 'what is happening'.

 

[LamboMan]

Gender neutral is a good way to describe it. Especially with how hands on in this he is yet I can totally see him fussing over bruce and dick like a mother hen ha. I wonder if Martha Kent and Alfred will ever interact together. Be funny if they flirted or something and Bruce and Clark were like 'what is happening'.

Haha!

That would be hilarious if that happens in JL. No wait, now that I think about it, that NEEDS to happen in JL. XD

 

[Corko]

Haha!

That would be hilarious if that happens in JL. No wait, now that I think about it, that NEEDS to happen in JL. XD

I was thinking about it a few days ago. I think Bruce would be scarred for life haha

 

[Miss Lois Lane]

I'd love to stay in this discussion, everyone is being so civil to one another and seems willing to think about other points of view rather than just going "You're wrong!!", but my time zone means I have to go to bed. Hope it's still going strong tomorrow

 

[LamboMan]

I'd love to stay in this discussion, everyone is being so civil to one another and seems willing to think about other points of view rather than just going "You're wrong!!", but my time zone means I have to go to bed. Hope it's still going strong tomorrow

Haha, I think I'll take that as my cue to leave too, since in my time zone it's 3:30 AM. XD

Have a nice discussion guys!

 

[Legendver2]

Lois was "his world" in the end but his first "world" was his mother. Lois was to Clark what Martha was to Pa Kent, a steadying rock and peaceful and loving retreat that helps him restore faith in himself and his actions. This makes Superman a very human character since this is what normally happens with most families. The boy's world is his mother and when he grows up she is replaced by his significant other. The feminine in a man's life is what keeps him steady and good much more easily than without it.

This is a very interesting observation, since it brought me back to Tomas Wayne's transformation into a hyper aggressive, gun-toting Batman in Flashpoint. He lost his world in Martha, and Bruce of course, so there was no feminine side at all in his life to balance out that rage. I'm not entirely sure what happens with Alfred in the Flashpoint timeline, but even the mainstream Batman has an Alfred that represents a more balanced view of feminine vs masculine, hence maybe that's why we see a slightly more balanced Bruce Batman compared to Thomas Batman.

 

[OutOfBoose]

This topic gives me life. This is what I want to see on this board, not discussions about how many people may lose their jobs and will have to commit suicide.

I have more thoughts to add, but I'll do it tomorrow. I have to go for now.

 

[Longshot777]

A friend of mine saw last night and he didn't like that ONLY Martha Wayne died.

I was like WHAT???!!!!

He thought Thomas Wayne was the guy at the building Superman destroyed fighting Zod.

Because on the phone It sounds like Bruce said, Dad.

I said no, he said "jack" who is one of his underling in Wayne Enterprise.

He still believes that was his dad because the cemetery scene only focused on Martha Wayne.

I was like dude go watch it again!!

 

[antoineflemming]

Off the top of my head - I felt that Laurie in 'Watchmen' was underdeveloped. Unlike the graphic novel where we could see what her motivations were, she seemed to only be there to react to Jon/Dan/Sally and their expectations of her.

MoS - HISHE makes a joke of this, but why no memory stick for Lara Lor-Van? I know that it's canon that Jor-El sends his memories/hologram off with Kal but in this day and age I expected Lara to have more to do than just launch the ship. And whilst Zod is a very nuanced character with motivation, Faora-Ul (although I enjoyed her character) is very much the stereotypical 'female badass villain'.

This is subjective though, and takes nothing away from my appreciation of your post

Maybe it has something to do with the very old, and more conservative Kryptonian society. Maybe that explains why Laura didn't do more. It was a pretty repressive society, where people fit into certain class roles.

 

[antoineflemming]

2. SUPERMAN

Lois was "his world" in the end but his first "world" was his mother.

On this point, I have to disagree. Quite clearly, Superman's first "world" was Krypton. He doesn't come to the realization that Lois is his world until the end of the film. He even states right after the Capitol bombing that the symbol of the house of El means hope - on his world, Krypton, which doesn't exist anymore. So that was his world. But, by the end of the film, he comes to the realization that Lois is his world. Martha is his special lady, as Lex put it, but she wasn''t his world. Lois is, which is the same thing we see in the Knightmare sequence.

 

[dougal]

I think you found a key theme of this movie! I never thought of any of this but what you say makes complete sense and is logical! I remember the fist scene because that is something that never is presented regarding Bruce's father.

This must have been mentioned but I think what bothers many people is that Superman is 100% right about Batman in the beginning of this film. He is a vigilante. Think of those sex slaves that Batman frees, they are terrified of him. A hero is meant to inspire the good, not make them afraid. Batman is lost and broken. Superman saves him.

Most Batman people don't like superman - he is too much of a goody two shoes - but in this movie he is the one that is right. This is in contrast to the DKR where Superman is the one that is wrong.

Sorry about he deviation but great job with the mother/father angle!

 

[Jaxon]

The only thing I don't agree with is your opinion of Zack Snyder's portrayal of women. Having said that, one overwhelmingly positive thing I have to say about this film is that Diana was portrayed incredibly well. I'm just glad he's not directing her solo film.

This is a very well thought out and well written post. Your comments about Bruce's lack of female influence are particularly insightful.

Snyder made a movie celebrating the empowerment of women, Sucker Punch. If you watch that movie through that lens you will really enjoy. Unfortunately critics see chicks in short clothes and called it exposition, where it is pitched at empowerment.
Snyder clearly sees women as a powerful force. Not surprising given the role his wife plays in his life.

 

[Jaxon]

On this point, I have to disagree. Quite clearly, Superman's first "world" was Krypton. He doesn't come to the realization that Lois is his world until the end of the film. He even states right after the Capitol bombing that the symbol of the house of El means hope - on his world, Krypton, which doesn't exist anymore. So that was his world. But, by the end of the film, he comes to the realization that Lois is his world. Martha is his special lady, as Lex put it, but she wasn''t his world. Lois is, which is the same thing we see in the Knightmare sequence.

Lois is Clark's human connection, without her he would abandon helping the Earth given the way people treat him for trying to do the right thing. You take Lois away, and then you take his belief in humanity away.
You mess with Superman's mother and he'll mess you up.

 

[Batsfan1]

In TDKRises a central aspect is Bruce's mother's pearls. If we want to look closely at it, we could say that it's apart of breathing life into Bruce again, because it's apart of the hint that Bruce is still alive. I noticed this in the movie, how Martha was important to Bruce now in this it. Have a very great day everyone!

God bless everyone!

 

[Legendver2]

On this point, I have to disagree. Quite clearly, Superman's first "world" was Krypton. He doesn't come to the realization that Lois is his world until the end of the film. He even states right after the Capitol bombing that the symbol of the house of El means hope - on his world, Krypton, which doesn't exist anymore. So that was his world. But, by the end of the film, he comes to the realization that Lois is his world. Martha is his special lady, as Lex put it, but she wasn''t his world. Lois is, which is the same thing we see in the Knightmare sequence.

I find it quite hard to believe though that his first "world" is Krypton, a dead planet that he never knew, probably has no emotional attachment to aside from a hologram of his father, telling him that symbol means hope. I think "world" is meant more as his pillar of strength and humanity, and his belief in good, rolled up into a person he cares more than anything else. That was what Martha was to Jonathan, and that is what Martha and Lois is to Clark.