"Accomplices" Season 2: Episode 21 Discussion Thread

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First and foremost, Peter is a tool. If this were my introduction to the character, I'd really dislike him. This dance he's doing with Liz and Gwen would have been bad before. But after the Master Planner arc, it's insane. After Gwen was nearly killed, there's no way he'd not reveal his feelings to her, especially since she's made hers clear to him. And the relationship with Liz is a joke. Peter and Liz have nothing in common, which is one reason they never got together in the comics. And worse, in this series, Liz is apparently so arrogant that she assumes Peter wants to be with her, simply because she wants to be with him. Such arrogance shouldn't and wouldn't be tolerated by Peter if he were written well, especially considering all the times she's treated him like crap. And Gwen- could she be more cliche'? Just because they chose to emphasize (superficially) her science geek side (Which would be fine if it were genuine), why does she have to also be the standard shy, shrinking violet? One of her best traits in the comics was her gumption and self-confidence. This is a chick that was abducted by a 25foot creature in the Savage Land and kept her cool. She should be far more assertive here.

You know, I get what you are saying even if others don't; however, I just think this whole Gwen or Liz show is simply a setup for Pete to eventually get with Gwen; while, Harry & Liz discover a mutual interest in each other later on... you know what i'm saying?

Hey, that's just me.
 
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All right, here what I thought of this week's episode titled "Accomplices"

Oh rather "Capture the Flag." Because just like the mini game in Halo, Unreal Tournament, or any other multiplayer shooter games, in which one person runs around with a flag and everyone else tries to kill, that's basically what this episode was...one long capture the flag. Naturally of course, since it was pretty much packed with action nearly the entire time, it was rather fun, even though there wasn't much in the way of development.

As a consequence, much of the subplots on the Peter Parker side that have been perfectly balanced thus far got pretty much set aside on the shelf. Not that there wasn't some nice moments. For one thing, it's even more heavily implied that Captain Stacy knows that Peter Parker is Spider-Man, as also hinted last week, and the episode makes the suggestion that Spidey suspects this as well. Yet that appears to be the only consequence from that arc, as we still get the traditional Peter's late for his date and has to come up with an excuse to Liz, or that he didn't seem to be there when Spidey was on the scene and yet, somehow (wink wink) manages to get some decent pictures. Speaking of those, I thought it was classic how Peter, after Liz forgave him, instantly thought of Gwen and had to correct himself. And I also liked the partnership he had with Foswell, which in some ways echoes the working relationship that Peter and Ben Urich sort of have (not to mention Peter's thought of "Does everybody have a secret identity?" when Foswell revealed he was Patch.)

Also, this episode was certainly dominated by the debut of Silver Sable. Now in the comics, she's essentially a foreign and very wealthy mercenary for hire, who runs an international independent contract firm that hunts down war criminals and terrorists, and who as even employed former super-villains on occasion, including Spidey's enemy, Sandman. Here, she's been reinvented as the daughter of incarcerated Crime Boss, Silvermane, and also (and this was totally unexpected) the ex-lover of Hammerhead. And as Spidey said about the pair's past history..."Eww!" Now, while can understand Weisman and company wanting to give Silvermane an enforcer as well as be his child, in this case a daughter, and it's a little clever (although somewhat forced) to have Silver Sable fill that role for Silvermane. However, as a result of this re-interpretation, Silver Sable comes off, almost exactly like Black Cat, expect that she's a member of organized crime, has a silver plated Tomohawk Helicopter constantly watching her back, and carries around what is a Rob Liefeld style BFG that's essentially an oversized staple gun. Which is odd, considering Black Cat made an amusing, albeit rather pointless, cameo in this episode. Even Nikki Cox sounds a lot like Trica Helfer, but considering it's different voice actors playing the part, it doesn't appear that Black Cat and Silver Sable are actually one and the same, which actually would be kind of a neat twist.

I do, however, like some of the clever little schemes that went on in this episode. First, of course, was Roderick Kingsley, in that he plays the snipless wimp when he needs to in order to distract and switch the device and get away from the scene. Makes his possible turn as the Hobgoblin that much more interesting. The other of course was Doctor Octopus. At first, I wasn't sure what his game was considering he first didn't say anything or bid on the device except sit back and be pampered by the two babes he brought along (ha, he's got eight limbs and together, both women do, too. :woot:). But then he sends the Rhino out to destroy it, playing on the idea that "there can be only one Rhino" and still get the leg up on the competition by having the "super freaks" in his corner. And of course, there's Norman Osborn, who basically played everybody by making them believe he was selling something to them all this time.

Finally, I also liked a bit of the quippage Spidey had in this episode. The funniest moment came when he threw the roadside cone at the Rhino and then says "Wow! I got the thingy around the thingy. What's my prize!" My second favorite also involved the Rhino, in which Spidey, after realizing he's about the bring the parking garage crashing down, says "Don't tell me Rhino used the same tactic on me that I used to beat the Shocker."

So, I have to say that this was a fun but not very meaty episode. Certainly, for those who are more action-oriented when it comes to their entertainment, there's definitely a lot to love for you. But considering that the show has been able to balance the action set pieces and the personal soap opera drama on equal footing in previous episodes, this episode misses the mark a bit, in my opinion.
 
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Ok, I loved it in 1st steps but seriously, the whole "Hobie's about to talk--oh no he was interrupted!" thing is getting old fast. For starters, it was set up the exact same way as last week's, at the end of Stacey's class. Also, the rule of comedy is threes. This was the fourth time. Either be original or drop the schtick until he actually says something.

Now then, aside from that, this episode was probably one of the season's best and not simply because of Liz without pants and the baby monkey pov of Black Cat crawling through the air ducts. Though I was disappointed her role was so small.

But the introduction of the show's first actual female villain, Hammerhead and Foswell's character development, Rod Kingsley's introduction, Ock being a pimp daddy and a Rhino-sPidey team up nobody saw coming...wow, what's not to like here?

It was also nice seeing the Peter Parker's life asPect of this episode pertain more to his professional life than high school drama though there was a bit of that too.
 
Ok, I loved it in 1st steps but seriously, the whole "Hobie's about to talk--oh no he was interrupted!" thing is getting old fast. For starters, it was set up the exact same way as last week's, at the end of Stacey's class. Also, the rule of comedy is threes. This was the fourth time. Either be original or drop the schtick until he actually says something.
It way past four now, I recall them doing this in the first season too.
 
Maybe that will be part of the reason Hobie becomes Prowler. That will show them all!!!!!
 
This was a decent episode. I give it a 6. I understand they are just setting things in motion with the gang arc and the grand finale which should be hardcore.
 
Really? I recall him never saying anything but not cut off like this as he's about to talk. It was almost like they introduced him but never had anything interesting for him to say in season one and when they realized this in season 2, they'd just make fun of it.

BTW, I love how Rhino's not dumb as a post in this series. The "Missed again!""Not aiming for you!" scene was great.

And seeing Sable get slammed in the face by Hammerhead opening the door was--look, I'm not a mysogynist by any means, but the way female fighters are painted as untouchable badasses in the media these days is ridiculous--it was nice seeing her knocked down a peg so embarassingly.
^_^

Mercy was pretty badass though.
 
Well i watched the episode on yt a couple of hrs ago. First off i thought it was a decent episode and a good set up for the gang war arc we are in now. Its not the best of the series but isnt that weak either.

To start off it was great to see black cat again. Her part in the intro was pretty good pitty it was so small, i do hope we get to see more of her in the later parts of the gang war arc.

Today's episode we also go introduced to Roderick kingsley and silver sable. I thought both had a nice intro to the fans. It was interesting to see they slightly changed kingsley's profession and his race, but the series has been doing that to a variety of characters. I cant wait to see what Greg has in store with him/homgoblin if we get a 3rd season order.

Silver sable i thought was pretty cool too, with her age my guess she would probably be in mid/late 20s or early 30s. Interesting they altered her origins a bit and made her be the daughter of silvermane. I cant wait to actually see him and how he is played out in this series. As for sable she was pretty cool and probably had many many years of training with weapons and fighting styles. So i can see why she and hammy could take out spidey pretty easy.

Spidey is still just a punk kid and doesnt have that great of fighting skills, heck he hardly ever has the best skills in any era. He usually get by with his aglitity and wit.

The fights i thought were pretty great and i loved the team up with rhino didnt see that coming. Also as others have said the thing on the thing line was pretty funny. Man their is so many quips i love in this series.

As for the patch/peter team up also i thought that was pretty cool that they had foswell reveal to pete he is patch. I wonder if foswell is just a straight arrow reporter and the patch identity is just for work or if he is really a criminal fooling everyone.

As for peter and liz this relationship i think is pretty normal one and i know there is alot of guys dating one girl but wishing he was with another all the time. This relationship is probably to show that gwen is who pete really does want to be with and liz was just really a fling/a person he thinks he does like but its only puppy love. Where as with gwen its true love.

Now for the end what a bad ass norman we are seeing, i cant wait to see what is going on with him with the rest of the season. And as i said many times over i really really hope they reveal norman was truly the goblin and harry was just a cover/ploy.
 
Few Things, spoilers about some stuff in the episode:

Kingsley now has a reason to become the Goblin. Norman just stole a half million from him. Even though Rhino destroys it...he still has reasons to be ticked: A) The deal was interrupted and thus could be blamed on Norman for setting him up and 2) If he finds out there was nothing the case he'd know that Norman was ripping him off for sure. Kingsley could just try to go get it from Norman... and find other super villian creating substances.

We get a tip that Hammerhead isn't so loyal to the "Big man" says it's for him and corrects himself, which sets up more of the gangwar arc.

Foswell got some character development. Like mentioned above, Foswell printed a story on Silvermane and helped get him taken down...leaving the Big Man free to take the reigns. It's possible that Foswell is a good guy, but also possible that he works for the Bigman (...is the bigman). Foswell told Peter that he looked into the "Bigman" case and it's nothing to go into. Fred could be intentionally throwing people off...couple that with Patch giving Spiderman info about the Planner (Bigman clearly wouldn't like another player throwing their hand into his money bags of crime) and the deal (called Police after Kingsley won, not Bigman, and could be looking over Hammy if Bigman foresaw his betrayal.) I know it's a really big stretch, but so far my verdict on his goodness is all webbed up!

I'd have to watch some of the episodes with Foswell again to flush the theory a bit out, but wanted to know what you guys thought of him so far in this series!

Few other random questions:
- Does Hammerhead's driver have a name or show up in the prior episodes?
- Greg stated that all the characters have their orgins from something Spidey related...is Norman's employee based off of anyone? I didn't catch if his name is Meagan or Minkins... (and i'm pretty sure the CPU actually spelt it out :hehe:)
 
I think Kingley becomes the HobGoblin to keep up with all the fighting because he was obviously scared when Sable and Hammerhead were fighting and then he called the police when they were all fighting in the parking lot

I'm not really sure what can be said so that's why i put this in spoilers
 
I think Kingley becomes the HobGoblin to keep up with all the fighting because he was obviously scared when Sable and Hammerhead were fighting and then he called the police when they were all fighting in the parking lot

I'm not really sure what can be said so that's why i put this in spoilers
Not to mention that Norman Osborn stole half a billion from him. It would make sence for Kingsley to steal his greatest work - the goblin drug - for revenge.
 
Okay.. I have ALOT of problems with this series. But since I don't have time to dissect the entire thing, I'll focus on this particular ep for starters.

Granted, this is a "pretty" show. The character designs and animation are very cool. But the writing leaves much too much to be desired.

First and foremost, Peter is a tool. If this were my introduction to the character, I'd really dislike him. This dance he's doing with Liz and Gwen would have been bad before. But after the Master Planner arc, it's insane. After Gwen was nearly killed, there's no way he'd not reveal his feelings to her, especially since she's made hers clear to him.

It's because he's not 100 percent sure because he has feelings for Liz too. He's only 15 and he has two girls who he is attracted to, who both want to date him. He doesn't know what to do or who he really wants.
And the relationship with Liz is a joke. Peter and Liz have nothing in common, which is one reason they never got together in the comics.

Yeah, that's kind of the point. They shouldn't be in a relationship together which they'll both realise.
Liz is apparently so arrogant that she assumes Peter wants to be with her, simply because she wants to be with him. Such arrogance shouldn't and wouldn't be tolerated by Peter if he were written well, especially considering all the times she's treated him like crap.

Say what? They've built up their relationship from the 2nd episode, she thinks Peter wants to be with her because he has dated her, just look at the first Doc Ock episode. And she may have treated him badly in the past but he's 15 and she is hot.
And Gwen- could she be more cliche'? Just because they chose to emphasize (superficially) her science geek side (Which would be fine if it were genuine), why does she have to also be the standard shy, shrinking violet? One of her best traits in the comics was her gumption and self-confidence. This is a chick that was abducted by a 25foot creature in the Savage Land and kept her cool. She should be far more assertive here.

She kissed him and then complained to him when he ignored her afterwards and kept her cool in the master planner arc. Again, she is only 15 years old and is facing these relationship issues for the first time.

In the overall, the character writing in the series is far too cartoony, even for a comic-based show.

What does this even mean? Are you seriously complaining that a cartoon is too cartooning? What next? Are you going to complain that a film is too filmy? Or a football game is too footbally?
 
I love this setup to the Gang war arc so much, this is the arc that I have been anticipating for so long. It is nice to see other normal people without powers who give Spidey trouble. Sable was great as a villain and her connection to Sivermane makes quite a bit of sense. I did enjoy Roderick/Daniel's cosmetic change as well. Sable took quite a beating too. it's nice to see a female and a(nother) black villain without the political correctness breathing down our backs. Norman was great as usual, playing the mobsters for patsies while sitting at his desk. Wait until Spider-Man carries that Osberry to a Green Goblin fight...Can't wait until next week.
 
Really? I recall him never saying anything but not cut off like this as he's about to talk. It was almost like they introduced him but never had anything interesting for him to say in season one and when they realized this in season 2, they'd just make fun of it.
Your right actually, haven't watched season one in awhile.

On another topic, I've been pretty indifferent to race changes in the show. Ok Ned Leeds is Ned Lee now and Liz is Hispanic, whatever it doesn't bother me. But when I saw that Kingsly was black, I totally loved the idea for some reason. Like the idea of the potential Hobgoblin being black seems pretty cool to me. I dunno, might seem odd lol but whatever :hyper:
 
The only thing that's come outta hobie's mouth so far is
1. Laughter in a S1 episode
2. Cheerleader chant in Catalysts
 
On another topic, I've been pretty indifferent to race changes in the show. Ok Ned Leeds is Ned Lee now and Liz is Hispanic, whatever it doesn't bother me. But when I saw that Kingsley was black, I totally loved the idea for some reason. Like the idea of the potential Hobgoblin being black seems pretty cool to me. I dunno, might seem odd lol but whatever :hyper:

I thought I was the only one who actually loved and really enjoyed this minor change. It shouldn't be a big deal but to me it is SO cool...like Tombstone being revealed as "The Big Man" cool.
 
And the relationship with Liz is a joke. Peter and Liz have nothing in common, which is one reason they never got together in the comics. And worse, in this series, Liz is apparently so arrogant that she assumes Peter wants to be with her, simply because she wants to be with him. Such arrogance shouldn't and wouldn't be tolerated by Peter if he were written well, especially considering all the times she's treated him like crap.
Peter is the one that's making a mistake and not Liz. Liz isn't being arrogant at all. She likes Peter and Peter appears to like her and has encouraged that belief.

And Gwen- could she be more cliche'? Just because they chose to emphasize (superficially) her science geek side (Which would be fine if it were genuine), why does she have to also be the standard shy, shrinking violet? One of her best traits in the comics was her gumption and self-confidence. This is a chick that was abducted by a 25foot creature in the Savage Land and kept her cool. She should be far more assertive here.
It looks like you have a misunderstanding of the intentions of the producers with the Gwen character. She is meant to be a shy character that develops into the character we know from the comics that is confident and popular. Perhaps it is cliché to have a character that starts out being meek and matures but it's a good one that is often told and I think they're doing a good job.

Say what? They've built up their relationship from the 2nd episode, she thinks Peter wants to be with her because he has dated her, just look at the first Doc Ock episode. And she may have treated him badly in the past but he's 15 and she is hot.
Of course for Peter, being a teenage boy, it doesn't hurt that Liz is a hot cheerleader in the series but I'd also add that aside from at the start Liz has been a nice girl, certainly nothing like Sally Avril, especially shown by her concern for Flash. This episode again showed why she would be attractive as a girlfriend i.e. someone who is understanding.

This shows good writing, it isn't just Peter's hormones that keep him with Liz.
 
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Is it just me or does this version of Rhino seem a bit smarter?
 
Man why does Spidey get beat up by normal humans? That's my one gripe with this show. I know he's a kid but come on now.
 
I would put Hammerhead and Silver Sable above normal
 
Hammerhead is DEFINATELY not Normal. Steel plates in his head. yeah not normal

Silver Sable is a well trained Merc/Mob Boss daughter.

Spidey's rogues definately aren't Normal except for Mysterio in which case he's just kinda resourceful
 
Got to agree with Gamer. It may not be great as you want or expect, but it's a whole lot better than previous Spider-Man's series.

But, I think TSSM's plot is very well done. The writing only had one major problem and that was with Eddie/Venom. Some think Eddie wasn't developed enough. But, that's a whole new topic. Overall, I think the writing is great.

There are alot of other problems, although I will agree that Eddie is pretty weak. His motivations in the series are worse than his motivations in the 616 comics and that's saying alot.

But most of the characters are poorly developed. The Connorses wanting to cover-up the Lizard and beng angry at Peter for taking a picture. They're certainly in no position to bring up trust issues.

Harry being the first Goblin and somehow becoming a master villain simply by taking a drug. I can understand his becoming a crook, but not his being able to embark on schemes beyond his years and knowledge with no prep time.

And, after having undergone this experience, he's simply brought back into a high school? The guy is a ticking time-bomb. It's like allowing the Columbine shooters to return to class had they survived. Moreover, Harry shouldn't yet be tocuhed (except indirectly) by the Goblin legacy. It was a great dynamic in the comics with Peter teetering between his friendship with Harry and fearing Norman's secret.

There are many more problems with the writing, but like I said, that's a per episode thing.
 
It's not like it's the first time a non super powered foe was able to fight Spidey one on one. The Kingpin did it all the time.


A few points..

Just because it happened in the past doesn't mean they should keep it going. They've made many changes in this series and that's one that should be enforced.

But- I think it's pretty clear based on the actions of Kingpin in the early stories that Stan figured he was superhuman. You simply can't display his level of strength and durability and be "normal" or even peak human. Even the likes of Captain America didn't possess Kingpin's power level.

As for this episode, to be clear- Hammerhead does have super strength. Merely having a steel plate in his head wouldn't allow him to do the kind of damage he does. In ASM #130, he slams into and overturns the Spider-Mobile, something which couldn't be done without having super strength.

But there's simply no way Spidey should have trouble with a martial arts expert like Sable. You simply can't explain away his being able to take a hit from the likes of the Rhino or Sandman, but then being knocked around by someone with just fighting skills. If she can stun him, the Rhino would kill him. You simply can't explain away his being able to dodge machinegun fire and yet be caught with a kick. Not with also factoring in his Spider-sense.

It isn't as if Sable can't be presented as formidable. She uses weapons, has strong back-up and is a clever strategist. But she just shouldn't be able to compete with Spidey on a hand-to-hand level. And let's face it, comic book writers (Being geeks) tend to favor female characters. Every character with boobs somehow develops an extra level of fighting ability over men. Initially the archaic "not hitting a woman" applied. But at this point it's about not hurtting someone weaker, or defenseless not whether or not they're female. No one is forciing the female characters into the arena. They're doing so of their own accord, thus they should take their lumps like anyone else.
 
It's because he's not 100 percent sure because he has feelings for Liz too. He's only 15 and he has two girls who he is attracted to, who both want to date him. He doesn't know what to do or who he really wants.

Actually he does. He keeps saying its Gwen. He just for some reason doesn't have the balls to follow-up. And so what if he's fifteen? I dealt with similar problems in High School, and I wasn't balancing that with making life or death decisions on a daily basis. Peter is a bit more mature than the average teen. In the comics he never succumbed to Liz' advances once he connected with Betty. And BTW- he should be more like 17 at the time of the Spider bite. Peter didn't go through 4 years of high school in 28 issues of comics. Another editorial mistake by Quesada and his crew.


Yeah, that's kind of the point. They shouldn't be in a relationship together which they'll both realise.

Peter making that mistake pre-spider bite is okay. Peter making that mistake without knowing Gwen's feelings is okay. Peter making that mistake after Gwen nearly died in his arms (more than once) is ridiculous. And from Gwen's end, why should hse trust Peter at all at this point, if he, after knowing how she feels goes with another girl? That's a pretty devastating rejection for- as you point out- a fifteen year old.


Say what? They've built up their relationship from the 2nd episode, she thinks Peter wants to be with her because he has dated her, just look at the first Doc Ock episode. And she may have treated him badly in the past but he's 15 and she is hot.

They haven't built up a relationship. They've hung around each other. They have no connection. Nothing in commom. If Liz were the only offer on the table, yeah, Peter might accept. But she isn't. And again, Peter is more than just a fifteen year old. He's a fifteen year old that regularly makes adult decisions.


She kissed him and then complained to him when he ignored her afterwards and kept her cool in the master planner arc. Again, she is only 15 years old and is facing these relationship issues for the first time.

And her complaint is a legitimate one. She had the stones to make a stand. It's puzzling why Peter who is regularly underfire doesn't. She did what anyone helpless would do in the Master Planner ep. But she certainly doesn't stand up for herself on the level that she should or would based on her character from the comics.

What does this even mean? Are you seriously complaining that a cartoon is too cartooning? What next? Are you going to complain that a film is too filmy? Or a football game is too footbally?

Wow- that was clever...

Yes. I'm complaining that a cartoon is TOO cartoony. There are, you might be aware of- different genres and styles of story-telling, even in cartoons. Bugs Bunny style characterization shouldn't be in this type of cartoon.

The point of the Master Planner arc in the comics was not to simply show another crimespree by Doc Ock. This is why he's barely in the story. The point was to present Peter's passage into manhood. Facing his perceived limits and going beyond them. In the cartoon he rises to the occasion physically but not mentally/emotionally, which he should have.
 
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