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"Gangland" Season 2: Episode 23 Discussion Thread

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Their second encounter isn't something I would've called personal. Maybe Tombstone had more to fight for, but the stakes weren't terribly high for Spidey.

And I put two different things on this episode regarding Tombstone over on toonzone.net, one is the level of potential that a clean Big Man/Tombstone still had (until now), and an idea on how to use him effectively down the road, (like in the 3rd season):


And how I would've written the 2nd half of the battle once silver, tombs, and hammer are outside (slightly tweaked from my toonzone suggestion):





Um that's bull, that they should have to give some sense of an ending just because they're supposedly ending. Not everything has to be given some degree of closure. Some things do go unresolved, just like in real life.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a little sense of closure and nothing has been 100% resolved. Things have been left open ended enough to do a lot more with the Tombstone character. He is far from finished and the writers have assured themselves of that by allowing him to remain free much to Spidey's disapproval by allowing him to remain on the streets until they can ultimately bring him down. It's a war between them and Spidey only won the last battle. It gave us a vague finish without a solid conclusion. This is not real life it is just a fictional tv series that we all watch for entertainment.

It's nice that they decided not to treat Tombstone as some all powerful God like they did with TAS Kingpin. Like Ock and Norman who will likely get his soon and many of the other villains have only been temporarily defeated but we know they will return and their level of hatred for Spidey will continue to grow. Tombstone will undoubtedly try to reclaim what he believes is his empire so all is not lost.

Hopefully we get more seasons but if not then we aren't left waiting for that physical showdown we all anticipated between them.
 
let's not get too worried about spidey and tombstone

at the moment it's 1-1 all' and he's still one of spidey's toughest opponents

to be fair this series, spidey has been taking out multiple badguys in almost every ep. I mean once you get to a point where you are taking down the sinister six legitimately (without the symbiote or invoking mistrust), then you're kinda stuck

all it needs is for tombstone to give spidey one helluva beating to get things back to speed.

as for his big man connections, nothing was proved and he'd probably pin it all on the goblin by the end of the series, making him clean in the eyes of the public again.
 
Funny...that was the same opera music they used in Punisher while he was fighting the Russian.
 
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a little sense of closure and nothing has been 100% resolved. Things have been left open ended enough to do a lot more with the Tombstone character. He is far from finished and the writers have assured themselves of that by allowing him to remain free much to Spidey's disapproval by allowing him to remain on the streets until they can ultimately bring him down. It's a war between them and Spidey only won the last battle. It gave us a vague finish without a solid conclusion. This is not real life it is just a fictional tv series that we all watch for entertainment.

Yes but I feel like they had lightning in a bottle with Tombstone, and him being unbeatable to Spidey up til this point was one of the big reasons why? Tombstone, didn't get beat by Spidey because of it being a natural evolution of this story between them. He only got beat so Green Goblin can look like the #1 threat to close out the season. Tombstone lost his mystique here, not to mention far too much momentum.

It's nice that they decided not to treat Tombstone as some all powerful God like they did with TAS Kingpin. Like Ock and Norman who will likely get his soon and many of the other villains have only been temporarily defeated but we know they will return and their level of hatred for Spidey will continue to grow. Tombstone will undoubtedly try to reclaim what he believes is his empire so all is not lost.

Tombstone was far above Kingpin and every other villain on this show. And Kingpin was never treated like a god when in front of spidey.

Tombstone (up till now) was alot like Darkseid on this show, in the sense that they were the one villain that the main protagonist could never straight up beat. When Superman got a physical victory over Darkseid, it was done in a story that meant something at that point.

Hopefully we get more seasons but if not then we aren't left waiting for that physical showdown we all anticipated between them.

If this was THAT showdown I would've rather not seen it and left it to my imagination. The more interesting villain took a blow only so a lesser (but still interesting) villain could look the most menacing.

let's not get too worried about spidey and tombstone

at the moment it's 1-1 all' and he's still one of spidey's toughest opponents

to be fair this series, spidey has been taking out multiple badguys in almost every ep. I mean once you get to a point where you are taking down the sinister six legitimately (without the symbiote or invoking mistrust), then you're kinda stuck

Nothing personal but it's kind of hard to be a sympathetic hero when you can handle any villain thrown your way, Spidey still beat Tombstone like any other villain in my eye. And like I said, it's not like this was one of spidey's most hard fought victories. Kraven got beat a 2nd time by Spidey but he left Spidey with a black eye, and other miscelaneous damages. Compare how Spidey came out of THAT battle compared to this and tell me which villain came out looking better in defeat and why?

all it needs is for tombstone to give spidey one helluva beating to get things back to speed.

If Spidey gets a beatdown by Tombstone just for the sake of getting his heat back, it would just be the creators admitting they screwed up.

as for his big man connections, nothing was proved and he'd probably pin it all on the goblin by the end of the series, making him clean in the eyes of the public again.

How's it gonna be the goblin's fault when he wasn't even there? Logic stretch much?

And remember, 16 different government agencies are watching his moves. What's he gonna do in this situation.


At least in the rewrite I proposed he would've come out unbeaten by spidey, just under suspicion and watched by the law (but not exposed), but his resources (Hammerhead, The Enforcers, Osborn) would be crippled.

It was possible to make GG look good against Tombs here (and outwit him) without sacrificing his mystique. I'm just sadened the writers couldn't figure out HOW to do it.
 
Yes but I feel like they had lightning in a bottle with Tombstone, and him being unbeatable to Spidey up til this point was one of the big reasons why? Tombstone, didn't get beat by Spidey because of it being a natural evolution of this story between them. He only got beat so Green Goblin can look like the #1 threat to close out the season. Tombstone lost his mystique here, not to mention far too much momentum.



Tombstone was far above Kingpin and every other villain on this show. And Kingpin was never treated like a god when in front of spidey.

Tombstone (up till now) was alot like Darkseid on this show, in the sense that they were the one villain that the main protagonist could never straight up beat. When Superman got a physical victory over Darkseid, it was done in a story that meant something at that point.



If this was THAT showdown I would've rather not seen it and left it to my imagination. The more interesting villain took a blow only so a lesser (but still interesting) villain could look the most menacing.


I see and I understand your stance. But I don't think the writers were necessarily putting Tombstone on a pedestal in that we would not get another confrontation this soon. Tombstone being the central crime figure has been at the root of the problems. From thugs committing crimes as part of his larger operation to creating supervillains further destabilizing NY to new threats such as GG trying to get a share of this power grab. They are the ones who went to Norman in the first place indirectly creating another threat and new power struggles. Not to mention the creation of Dr. Octopus. If not for Spidey's intervention Tombstone would have already met his demise in The Uncertainty Principle.

Everything just spiraled from Tombstone and he just represents a figure in the one major constant in this show, and that being organized crime. The writers have put their focus on the criminal organization itself, not Tombstone. Tombstone is just a major player in that theme. Which is why we will see new characters and new threats involved in future gang wars. Spiderman winning that physical battle and getting a moral victory seeing him hauled away in handcuffs doesn't saffice since he is a free man. Which is why Peter is so upset. He has not won anything Tombstone still looms.

Comparing Superman/Darkseid is far more epic in scope than anything Spidrman/Tombstone could ever offer. The stakes were much higher and far more detrimental and served much better as an end to a great series.
 
I see and I understand your stance. But I don't think the writers were necessarily putting Tombstone on a pedestal in that we would not get another confrontation this soon. Tombstone being the central crime figure has been at the root of the problems. From thugs committing crimes as part of his larger operation to creating supervillains further destabilizing NY to new threats such as GG trying to get a share of this power grab. They are the ones who went to Norman in the first place indirectly creating another threat and new power struggles. Not to mention the creation of Dr. Octopus. If not for Spidey's intervention Tombstone would have already met his demise in The Uncertainty Principle.

So your saying they didn't see the bigger picture, after sacrificing his "invincibility/invulnerability"?

Everything just spiraled from Tombstone and he just represents a figure in the one major constant in this show, and that being organized crime. The writers have put their focus on the criminal organization itself, not Tombstone. Tombstone is just a major player in that theme. Which is why we will see new characters and new threats involved in future gang wars. Spiderman winning that physical battle and getting a moral victory seeing him hauled away in handcuffs doesn't saffice since he is a free man. Which is why Peter is so upset. He has not won anything Tombstone still looms.

Yeah but any other figure (green goblin aside) trying to take over and/or copying the Big Man's way of operating things will just be thought of as a poor mans tombstone, and hot potatoeing the big man role would be redundant.
And like I said above, Peter didn't think much of it once he heard 16 governments were watching Tombstone's actions.
And trust me it's been put in everyones minds that once Spidey/or any hero can beat a villain, once. They'll automatically think they can do it again.
So whats to make people think he can't beat Tombstone again? That's one of the things that Tombstone had over every other villain on this show.

Comparing Superman/Darkseid is far more epic in scope than anything Spidrman/Tombstone could ever offer. The stakes were much higher and far more detrimental and served much better as an end to a great series.

Yes its far bigger in the grand scheme of things. But there were still alot of things that made it similar. Spidey coming face to face against a power figure who outmatched him instantly was similar to their first meeting, Tombstone also offered Spidey an opportunity we know Spidey would never take. Darkseid did something similar in offering Superman an opportunity.
I'm saying that the ground work of Spidey/Tombstone and their feud had similar themes that also happened when it first started out.
Tombstone was still an all powerful figure that was sort of a hybrid of Luthor/Darkseid. Spidey couldn't touch him or beat him.

And whilst I don't expect the scope to reach from across the galaxy, but keep in mind the stakes didn't start out instantly high. They escalated. A similar thing could've happened (it could still, but they stumbled IMO) with Spider-Man/Tombstone.
 
Yeah but any other figure (green goblin aside) trying to take over and/or copying the Big Man's way of operating things will just be thought of as a poor mans tombstone, and hot potatoeing the big man role would be redundant.
And like I said above, Peter didn't think much of it once he heard 16 governments were watching Tombstone's actions.
And trust me it's been put in everyones minds that once Spidey/or any hero can beat a villain, once. They'll automatically think they can do it again.
So whats to make people think he can't beat Tombstone again? That's one of the things that Tombstone had over every other villain on this show.



Yes its far bigger in the grand scheme of things. But there were still alot of things that made it similar. Spidey coming face to face against a power figure who outmatched him instantly was similar to their first meeting, Tombstone also offered Spidey an opportunity we know Spidey would never take. Darkseid did something similar in offering Superman an opportunity.
I'm saying that the ground work of Spidey/Tombstone and their feud had similar themes that also happened when it first started out.
Tombstone was still an all powerful figure that was sort of a hybrid of Luthor/Darkseid. Spidey couldn't touch him or beat him.


Well, what else was Spiderman going to do, go confront the Tombster again? Capatain Stacy did what any officer of the law would do, give his assurance that they would do everything within their power to put him behind bars. All Spiderman can do is accept that but you know he won't be ultimately satisfied until he deservingly serves time for all his wrong doing. And we knew when GG first got involved threatening to take his empire that they would be playing musical crime boss so it was only a matter of time. They played that game in season one and GG was not done with his goal. GG is just completely insane, how long will his reign last? We all expect his defeat in their final confrontation in a few episodes so his fate is predictable. Right now that leaves Hammerhead and the Tombster has made it clear he will be dealt with.

At this point Tombstone has something that is very valuable, his freedom. He can go back to the comfort of his lavish skyrise apartment. There was really no reason to prolong a physical confrontation well into future seasons for the sake of a climatic fistfight between the two. There will be the rise of new threats from new villains and some of the old ones. Just because Spiderman beat Doc Ock and Goblin a few times should we not look forward to new battles and plots?

I can respect your opinion and all but I think it was handled properly, but I guess that we just agree to disagree.
 
I loved Gwen's makeover by MJ , The Whole Gangwar between the three crimeboss was great , JJJ was funny as ever, The Parker luck returns , Flash continues to win the heart of the geek girl, Mark & MJ are becoming more of an item , It's obvious Captain Stacy knows Parker is spidey , And The Green Goblin returns just in time for the final arc of season 2 .
 
when the fight came out of the opera house and Capt Stacey pulled up, i was sure he was going to die. just the way the music was building up to what seemed like him getting out of the car. like one of those moments in movies wehre everyone knows the characters going to die and your just waiting for the moment when they take the fall.

anyway i really don't like how powerful Tombstone is in this, he was owning spidey again, and how spidey beat him was really lame looking, like he pulled a piece of something with his web and it fell like a foot onto Tombstones head. they had this huge buildup and then it just ended.

I'm not to sure how i felt about Green Goblins appearence at the end, i mean i was waiting for it, but it just looked wierd to me, maybe its because everyone the whole episode were regular looking guys and then all of a sudden there is this bright green imp. i have no idea how else you could have done it tho
 
Nothing personal but it's kind of hard to be a sympathetic hero when you can handle any villain thrown your way, Spidey still beat Tombstone like any other villain in my eye. And like I said, it's not like this was one of spidey's most hard fought victories. Kraven got beat a 2nd time by Spidey but he left Spidey with a black eye, and other miscelaneous damages. Compare how Spidey came out of THAT battle compared to this and tell me which villain came out looking better in defeat and why?
Actually I think tombstone still comes out better

kraven got legitimately knocked the **** out after running him up a tree. knocked out cold. This is in super mutant form as well.

tombstone took a bloody big mechanical machine in the face. he also had spidey where he wanted him, under his feet for the second time in the show's history.

tombstone is still one of only a few heroes that have single handedly beaten spidey on ANY occasion.

in fairness, he was only beaten as a plot device to get norman to be a big player in things.
 
in fairness, he was only beaten as a plot device to get norman to be a big player in things.

And that's what my biggest annoyance with this is.

And it doesn't matter if Spiderman hurled something at Tombs HE STILL BEAT HIM.

Now Spidey has now beaten every villain thrown his way.

Kraven, yes was knocked out. But he gave Spidey a tougher battle that actually took it's toll on Spidey. Tombstone didn't give Spidey that kind of fight. He could've but the staging wasn't there.
 
There was really no reason to prolong a physical confrontation well into future seasons for the sake of a climatic fistfight between the two. There will be the rise of new threats from new villains and some of the old ones.

Why not, the next time they met it could've been in a bigger storyline, with the stakes raised higher. Like in say the next season. Many other shows have done this in serialized storytelling when it came to keeping a villain strong.

Superman TAS did it with Darkseid
X-Men Evolution did it with Apocalypse
Avatar: The Last Airbender did it with Fire Lord Ozai
The bigger the buildup the stronger the payoff sometimes. I felt Spec. Spidey had a similar opportunity with Tombstone here. Not that the big showdown/victory had to happen at the end, but more like in a storyline that actually mattered.
 
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Why not, the next time they met it could've been in a bigger storyline, with the stakes raised higher. Like in say the next episode. Many other shows have done this in serialized storytelling when it came to keeping a villain strong.

Superman TAS did it with Darkseid
X-Men Evolution did it with Apocalypse
Avatar: The Last Airbender did it with Fire Lord Ozai
The bigger the buildup the stronger the payoff sometimes. I felt Spec. Spidey had a similar opportunity with Tombstone here. Not that the big showdown/victory had to happen at the end, but more like in a storyline that actually mattered.

Awesome as he is, Tombstone is nowhere near the kind of power level as any of the above. I'm also not sure how you'd raise the stakes with him either, as he's pretty much hit the pinnacle of power he wants. He was the undisputed head of the criminal underworld for all of the first season and most of the second, with no indication that he wants anything beyond that- Doc Ock's the guy who's out for world domination, not Tomby. Really, something had to happen to shake up the underworld or else Tombstone risked becoming TAS Kingpin- a villain who could never be touched and who never really had his situation changed. This would quickly become stale and boring, in my opinion, which is a far greater threat to a cool villain than losing a battle every once and a while.

Besides, if you stop to think about it Spidey only beat Tombstone after a huge brawl involving several villains, after which Lincoln (this version of whom possesses no special powers we are as yet aware of) was probably tired and therefore easier to defeat. We still don't know how he would do against Spidey if it was just the two of them in a straight fight. (Their first confrontation doesn't count- in that case it was Spidey who was tired from fighting Rhino, and he probably expected the Big Man to be physical pushover. As a result, Tombstone was able to surprise him and pin him.)

Besides, assuming that we get a third season, we'll probably see Tombstone working to regain control of his empire, giving plenty more oppurtunities for awesomeness.
 
In Tombstone's defense, he was fighting Doc Ock and Silvermane for the majority of the episode. I would assume that he wasn't in tip top shape when he fought Spidey one on one at the end.
 
I agree with both of you. Tombstone may have been tired from fighting Doc Ock and Silvermane. Doc Ock and Silvermane putted up a good fight.
 
I couldn't be bothered to go thru the whole thread so see if it has already been mentioned but the people who get engaged in this episode are the geek and pretty girl who were strangers in the street until Spidey webbed them together and hung them from a lamp post and as he's leaving he shouts, "You can think me later dude."
 
yes tombstone was fighting doc ock and silvermane, but so was spider-man, so i wouldn't say that tombstone would be more tired. i do find tombstone to be ridiculously overpowered though. he should be no more a threat to spider-man physically imo than hammer head really. Venom, Doc Ock, and GG are the real challenges
 
This is it, episode 23, the epic beat down of the entire season. Now we can all reflect and...

Oh, wait, this isn't even the season finale, is it? It just looks, feels, sounds, talks, and punches like one, and we have another three episode arc to go! Sometimes describing an episode that is of a certain entertainment quality seems fruitless. How can a thousand or twenty thousands words capture that almost giddy feeling a fan can feel when you've watched an awesome animated comic work? When from opening to end credits everything has been pulled off to thrill your eyes or give you laughs. Where stories seem to end yet many more begin.

It's episodes like this that really make you not only appreciate the show, but beg for Season 3 and show the gap between WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN and this may as well be an ocean.

"Gangland" is the culmination of the current, well, Gang War story-arc for this season that in away began with the premire with Master Planner organizing super-villains and going about with grand scale plots to control New York and even the world. Naturally, said Planner was none other than Doctor Octopus, a mastermind and menace so grand in Spidey's world that he doesn't just sit back and let Venom or Green Goblin reign supreme as Nemesis #1 without a helluva fight. Just as it should be. Aside for Hammerhead showing up in the last Sandman episode where he reformed, the Big Man/Tombstone/ L. T. Lincoln has been quiet until two episodes ago when the arc came to fore. There was little quiet about this episode. It's some 23 minutes long and nearly two thirds of that is fighting. But it's not just sloppy combat, it is well paced, nuances, and interspliced with some comedic lines from other characters that put some sitcoms to shame. SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN will make you laugh before it yanks at the heart-strings.

It's Valentine's Day and Spidey would love to just grab flowers for Liz Allen for their hot date, but he's too busying having to web up two goons who are robbing the place and naturally are working for conflicting bosses, Silvermane for one and Big Man for the other. With Silvio "Silvermane" Manfredi due out of jail by the second and with Dr. Octopus still lurking about with practically every super-thug who isn't in jail or depowered (or Sandman), the pressure is mounting on the web-slinger to find a way to diffuse the situation or at least prepare for it without feeling like a bug caught in the middle of a fire-fight. He also is distracted from Liz by Gwen Stacy, and this is also the episode where that comes to a head.

It seems there would be two debates this episode may bring; the fate of Tombstone after some 15 episodes of build up, and the end of Peter's "relationship" with Liz and how he came off. And, yeah, how awesome the Four Way Dance was. I'll try to cover all that as I go along.

Peter manages to show up on time for his double date with Harry Osborn and Gwen; apparently the girl got a MJ-style make-over for the fancy dinner, and to say that Peter's "you look like an angel" is an understatement. The girl cleans up very well, to say the least. Harry, on the other hand, seems far less impressed by her looks and more so by her punctuality; he is very much his father's son sometimes. Makes you wonder what kinds of things exactly he and his mother go through on those "trips to Europe". In many ways the date would be between Gwen and Peter, but due to circumstances, mostly being Peter's inability to focus properly on women for very long, they both are with different dates right now. In this episode Liz begins to finally realize and experience how she is second fiddle in Peter's heart. One could easily claim that Peter is a cad at some moments to Liz, who honestly did nothing to deserve it. It isn't like she is a standard nagging, whine prone superhero girlfriend like many have been. She's been amazingly tolerant of Peter's latenesses and disappearances, part and parcel of being Spider-Man (or a newspaper photographer). It wasn't even as if all the moves in their relationship were hers; as some go, Liz never went anywhere with Peter she didn't feel invited.

There is a part of me who is almost waiting for someone to beg me to explain how I feel Peter is more sympathetic than Cyclops in WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN, who often comes off as a needy dipstick with women issues. The answer is that Peter isn't doing this to Liz deliberately, and at 16 he has more of an excuse due to youth than Cyclops does as someone college aged. I'm a social worker by profession and the idea of a 16 year old boy stringing along two girls without being malicious or deliberate about it is more than possible. Alanna Ubach's Liz Allen in some ways is a tragic heroine; she isn't a bad character unto herself, and has gotten a slew of focus, but she isn't Lacey Chabert's Gwen Stacy, that "destined" love interest for Peter. But to me I LIKE that Peter in this show "dates around". He did that all the time in the comics. It wasn't like the films where he loved one girl from first grade to college and no one else, which is almost creepy in a way. Peter thought little of flirting with Liz Allen while dating Betty Brant in the comics, then stressing about it later, after all. While becoming Spider-Man didn't change Peter's character for the worse, it did give him some more cajones around women, whether intentional or not, that he never had before. How can Peter know that Gwen is something special if he's never dated anyone else before to compare her with or to? Besides, it's high school; everyone but me dated around.

(I was one of those shy reclusive nerds who never got a spider-bite to get any confidence. Long story.)

A few episodes ago I was sort of feeling the drag of Peter/Liz, but I understand why the writers included it. Just having Peter nab Gwen without any sort of soap opera drama past a few episodes is too easy. Liz and Peter never dated in the comics; here was a chance to be unique for something else beyond turning Kraven into a Tiger, which I appreciate. Sometimes unique relationships in comic book cartoons can be cooler than the real thing, at least for a while; it's been nearly six years since X-MEN EVOLUTION ended and I am STILL annoyed that Scott never returned poor Rogue's crush and instead fell into Jean's arms, almost literally. That's the power of handling these things right. It can get on your nerves that Peter doesn't just grab Gwen and make out with her in one of those epic 360 degree camera turns, but get it too soon and it's anti-climatic. Who expected Liz to choose Peter over Flash? What strapping 16 year old male would not even "try out" dating a cheerleader who was clearly and assertively into him who has none of that "friend tension" that Peter has with Gwen? If things run their course with Liz, Peter is no worse off with her than he was in Season 1; but making the leap from friend to lover with Gwen is a far larger one. Does it seem cad-ish from Liz's perspective? Sure. It's intentional. When Eric Lopez's Mark Allen stands up for his little sister's feelings at the end with Peter, you're not supposed to feel that Mark is WRONG. Quite the opposite, in a way. Peter Parker isn't Superman, after all. He's not supposed to be a moral paragon who can make no social or personal misstep.

Older teenagers likely could easily connect to this Peter and many in the cast of this show; a shame it is being almost exclusively promoted to younger kids. Hopefully positive buzz spreads.

But I am skipping all over the place.

The two couples meet up with Eugene "Flash" Thompson and his date Sha Shan, who was finally impressed with his moral courage exposing Harry's cheating to the school football commission last episode. There is another character who has really grown this season. He all but steals the episode here; his banter with Peter asking him for help with the date is sheer genius. It's perfectly written and acted between Josh Keaton and Joshua LeBar; the timing with the lines were incredible, and the animation makes it all flow well. The kids run into the rest of the posse, Kong with Gloria and Randy with Sally, who only agree to squeeze in from Liz's plea. It seems she wants anything to try to distract Peter from Gwen, to get his focus back on her. Sha Shan and Eugene ultimate end up trying to work through their "smart girl/jock guy" dilemma because she knows that Flash deep down is at least a good guy under his jockness.

But it isn't all ARCHIE style drama, is it? At Lincoln Center (I think), where J. Jonah Jameson is being drug along to the opera by his wife, the three crime cornerstones are all meeting in a private box. Hammerhead and Tombstone in one corner, Sable and her father Silvermane in the second, with Dr. Octopus (in his BEST cape from the Count Dracula collection) and Vulture in the third. Their perspectives seem rather clear and untenable. Big Man is a businessman and is willing to compromise for an alliance, with him likely still in control. Silvermane feels the streets are his by birthright, and Ock feels both are just cheap hoods compared to his Bond-villain-approach to things. It becomes clear very quickly, however, that Hammerhead, the perennial stooge for hire, is about to make a power play, albeit with unexpected help from a mysterious new party (or old party). The situation quickly deteriorates when everyone assumes the other invited them there, and Hammerhead escalates the situation by finding a hidden tranquilizer gun and TKO'ing Sable with it, which turns the meeting into a fight immediately.

If I had but one tiny, minor caveat about the spectacle that followed, it is that it seemed that Tombstone downed Vulture awfully fast. Sure, it was close quarters, little room to fly, and Adrian was likely caught off-guard. I know that the fight was good and insane enough with only four combatants; adding Vulture might have made it crazier. But I only say that because this show's version of Vulture is incredibly good and entertaining.

Faster than a speeding bullet, Hammerhead is painting Tombstone as the mastermind to the double-cross and Silvermane is busting out his trademark body-armor (rather than cybernetics from the comics, which I though worked nevertheless). The look is the same and they really helped make a somewhat generic cyborg design work for an animated show, and made Silvio, voiced by the reliable Miguel Ferrer, sound unique and intimidating by himself. You have Octopus thrashing things with his tentacles, Silvermane with his Mafia Iron-Man schtick, especially sonic forcefield blasts, and Tombstone with his stone cold physique. While Hammerhead watches the dons battle it out and expects to pick up what is left of the underworld, Foswell, undercover as "Patch", calls in the tip to J.J., who of course gets Peter involved for snaps at the end. The three criminals battle it out for a while just outside the opera before Spider-Man arrives, who quickly has to try to add to the mix while saving civilians caught in the middle, such as J.J. and a few kids from a field trip.

What makes SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN a great rather than merely good is not only an attention to detail, but a sense of class and distinction. Rather than give kids the same jazzy fight music as many past shows or even episodes, this episode chooses classic orchestra music, akin to crime movies. This of course includes the titanic "La Donna e' Mabile" at one point (yes, the song in THE PUNISHER (2004) where Frank battles the Russia, or even the song that The Tick starts to sing to the Thousand Year Bloom in "BLOOMSDAY"); how many "childrens cartoons" give you opera music alongside their comic book style fight scenes, and it all fits perfectly and elegantly? Peter MacNicol by now is really owning his role as Dr. Octopus and I can easily say that he's never been more exciting or more dangerous and dynamic as he is in SS-M. No longer is he a stale mad scientist or Kingpin's flunky. Spider-Man quickly finds himself overwhelmed by the trio's conflict as it moves outside, watched by the police (with Capt. Stacy of course leading them) and dozens of civilians, including Jameson and Foswell. Octopus at one point pins Spidey down and wisely suggests they continue their squabble after eliminating him, and I enjoyed how the arrogant, old-world-mobster-in-armor Silverman "isn't impressed" by the wall-crawler. Unfortunately for them, Lincoln's reputation as a sound businessman means he can't be seen publicly allying with criminals, so he aids Spider-Man only by obligation, much as when they both had to ally to stop Green Goblin's bomb in season one.

Spider-Man is throwing some fast and furious one liners which are consistently hilarious in this show, and gets an extended sequence against Silvermane, which I liked because I have to admit for a "C-List" rogue of Spidey's I always had a soft spot for him, same for Tombstone and Hydro-Man. As with everyone, Silverman's armor has a weakness; batteries that can be removed at the joints that cause the middle aged mobster to collapse. "You can't...do this...to Silvio Manfredi!" Once Dr. Octopus is caught off guard and defeated, Tombstone and Spider-Man have their showdown in the sewer.

And there will be some that say, "That's it!?" but I am not one of them. They fight on screen for a good 2-3 minutes, with no dialogue or even sound effects at one point, just more opera music, with even some different angles from Ock's POV as he tries to see who wins (likely wanting to at least witness Spider-Man die, even if not causing it). All that alone would have made for a fitting duel without the entire rest of that three way battle before hand. After that whole fight, Big Man was just exhausted, and Spider-Man capitalized at the right moment (after taking quite a beating from Lincoln). In many ways Tombstone is a unique enemy for Spider-Man. No fancy gimmicks or weapons to exploit, no distractions like insanity or a grandiose scheme of revenge or conquest. He's just a cool, cunning organized crime boss who is more than strong and swift enough to physically overpower Spider-Man with his bare hands if he is careless; like Kingpin without the baloney "I'm not superhuman, just am a sumo in a suit" theory. I thought Spider-Man's pledge as someone who "doesn't back down" was quite definitive and that was more than enough to satisfy me.

Besides, this show if anything proves that Dr. Manhattan line; "Nothing ever ends."

With even J.J. having to back away from siding with Tombstone via the press, all of the crooks are arrested. Tombstone is quickly released from jail, but with various government agencies watching his every move now, his criminal enterprise is very limited. He may be free, but his network is shattered, Hammerhead has double-crossed him, and he's likely lost a lot of his "street rep" having been taken down by Spider-Man. Without being in prison, of course, there is always the chance of a rise to power again in a theoretical Season 3 or 4, but I appreciate that this show knew it had two seasons and 26 episodes, and is bringing some things to a satisfying enough conclusion knowing it has one and only one shot to dazzle the network, either CW 4kids or Disney XD.

The scenes between Capt. Stacy and Spider-Man are of course very strong, with him sounding very much like a mentor talking to a hero he knows is a teenage boy at heart. Clancy Brown is really nailing the role here and while I know everyone is waiting with baited breath if the show ever kills his daughter, it is worth noting in the comics, George died first, and while network cartoons may be iffy about killing teenage girls on camera, middle aged men can be worked around.

Peter returns to the restaurant and gets a dressing down from Mark Allen, speaking for his sister and claiming she is better than to be "number two" in his heart to Gwen Stacy. While Gwen now acknowledges she understand that Peter "needs the job to help his aunt" (even if his aunt isn't as helpless as Peter frets; he's just responsible), it was never about the job to Liz. While of course Peter was the star, my liking for Mark Allen really grew here. I like his "non-date date" thing he has with MJ and it was good of him to stand up for his sister. It will be interesting when and if Mark ever becomes the Molten Man. Oh, who I am I kidding; this is a show that had Col. Jupiter for chrissakes; Molten Man is inevitable.

The true mastermind of the whole crime coup is of course revealed as Green Goblin, well rested and just as insane as ever. I have no clue how Steven Jay Blum switches from Wolverine to Goblin, but he always is incredible. The bigger question is, is Harry really THE Green Goblin? Or is he somehow a stooge or distraction for his father? Norman was tasked with creating villains to "distract" Spider-Man; what better than a villain who is his best friend, who also sometimes aids in Norman's dealings, who Norman can control? I am curious if Harry is the Goblin in body, but Norman is in spirit. The great Norman Osborn being a mere spectator is too small for this show. Maybe the two act as Goblins when each has to be seen in person, much as there was more than one Batwoman in BATMAN: MYSTERY OF THE BATWOMAN to throw people off? It certainly looks to be interesting.

And yes, that couple getting married was the one Spidey accidentally webbed up some time ago to save them. They totally owe him.

This final endgame arc not only has to tie things up for the season, but if the network ratings gods are not kind, for the entire show itself. While everyone in the production team from the writers to the actors wants to hurry up and get back into production, it is out of their hands. What a task it will be to top everything in what has been a practically legendary Season 2, and what a triumph it will be when, not if, the show pulls it off.

Toonzone interviews star Josh Keaton here, and this is my favorite highlight:
http://news.toonzone.net/articles/2...ent-josh-keaton-on-the-spectacular-spider-man
MAA/TZN: Last question: between Gwen, MJ, and Liz, which one would Josh Keaton pick?

KEATON: Josh Keaton would totally pick Gwen, and sometimes I get really really mad at Pete for not seeing that it's right there in front of him. She's cute, she's a dork, she's smart, she's kind of feisty. I want to smack him upside the head sometimes.

I know what you mean, man. Here's hoping whatever happens in the next three episodes, we have as good a payoff as we had at the end of "NATURE VS. NURTURE".

Epic episode. Miss it at your peril. Do it for "Hamster".
 
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I don't buy into the whole "Tombstone was exhausted" theory. Especially when Spidey fought nearly as much of the battle he did. And none of the hits to Tombstone really seemed to stop him for that long, if at all.

IMO this episode took Tombstone from epic villain (like he was in season 1) to mearly decent villain (he's no longer a villain that feels like he's at the top of the food chain).
 
yes tombstone was fighting doc ock and silvermane, but so was spider-man, so i wouldn't say that tombstone would be more tired. i do find tombstone to be ridiculously overpowered though. he should be no more a threat to spider-man physically imo than hammer head really. Venom, Doc Ock, and GG are the real challenges


I agree with the above statement on the first part.

But on the second part, Tombstone is as powerful as those in charge want him to be.
Honestly after his first appearance I thought they had a clear idea on how to use him effectively against Spidey. But they clearly want Green Goblin as the shows #1 villain.
 
it's nice to see people wanting tombstone to stay badass, this time last year there were outcrys on how easily he took down spidey.

it's nice to know the majority have now accepted spidey's ownage in the invisible hand, it helped both their character developments.

i would just say try not to take it badly, he was pretty much still kicking apart from that block attack to the face.

I do think one thing they need to fix about the show is have spidey injured more. he's only had bruises from kraven but he's had a lot of tough fights and takes some serious damage, but never has anything to show for it.
 
AMAZING episode! Seriously, so bad ass. This Dock Ock is my favorite Dock Ock. He is so fierce.

So we still don't know if Norman or Harry is the Green Goblin do we? I think Norman purposely gave Harry the green ooze but i'm not sure.
 
I don't buy into the whole "Tombstone was exhausted" theory. Especially when Spidey fought nearly as much of the battle he did. And none of the hits to Tombstone really seemed to stop him for that long, if at all.

IMO this episode took Tombstone from epic villain (like he was in season 1) to mearly decent villain (he's no longer a villain that feels like he's at the top of the food chain).

Tombstone was in the fight before Spider-Man arrived; Spidey kind of showed up around Round 2 of a three round bout. He took quite a few shots from Dr. Octopus and Silvermane before fighting Spider-Man himself. And he still managed to hammer Spidey quite a bit before Spidey basically hit him in the face with an engine or something. At some point Tombstone had to suffer a setback, and I thought it was well handled. It isn't like he was jailed or defeated for very long anyway. It wasn't like after Spider-Man webbed him up and was handing him to the cops that Tombstone could have torn free and physically escaped without ruining any of his "legit" rep left.

I thought it was a sufficient climax. They wanted Tombstone's arc to have an ending without completely removing any potential for another in Season 3. Don't want to burn all those bridges now.
 
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