"Accomplices" Season 2: Episode 21 Discussion Thread

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Peter is the one that's making a mistake and not Liz. Liz isn't being arrogant at all. She likes Peter and Peter appears to like her and has encouraged that belief.

Again, there's no connection between them. No shared interests. When they speak, Peter is barely there in response. Liz is generating all of the enthusiasm about the relationsip. Peter just makes goo-goo eyes because she's (supposedly) hot. Not the basis of a relationship, even at the age of 15. Even at that age (unless the relationship is purely superficial, which it is for Peter) you still look to date someone you can share something with. But Liz has nothing to share with Peter. He's just the "nice guy" after her time of dating the "jerk" Flash. And she clearly seems to enjoy that she can dominate Peter. So yeah, she's pretty arrogant.


It looks like you have a misunderstanding of the intentions of the producers with the Gwen character. She is meant to be a shy character that develops into the character we know from the comics that is confident and popular. Perhaps it is cliché to have a character that starts out being meek and matures but it's a good one that is often told and I think they're doing a good job.

Not at all. If they were going about the path you suggest, then Gwen would have stood up for herself already. In literature, difficult situations lead to characters rising to the stuation. Gwen has had hers. And while it was good that she SAID that she won't be Peter's second choice, that stance falls by the wayside whenever they're in front of each other. So the character development is stalled.
 
Harry being the first Goblin and somehow becoming a master villain simply by taking a drug. I can understand his becoming a crook, but not his being able to embark on schemes beyond his years and knowledge with no prep time.

Harry being the first Goblin has not been 100% confirmed yet. All we have is his and Norman's statements.

Two mental cases. :yay:
 
Again, there's no connection between them. No shared interests. When they speak, Peter is barely there in response. Liz is generating all of the enthusiasm about the relationsip. Peter just makes goo-goo eyes because she's (supposedly) hot. Not the basis of a relationship, even at the age of 15. Even at that age (unless the relationship is purely superficial, which it is for Peter) you still look to date someone you can share something with. But Liz has nothing to share with Peter. He's just the "nice guy" after her time of dating the "jerk" Flash. And she clearly seems to enjoy that she can dominate Peter. So yeah, she's pretty arrogant.
You must have a different understanding of what arrogance means because I don't see how Liz is being arrogant. She doesn't assume that Peter likes her and forces Peter to stay with her. She has followed the same pattern as any normal person would; she likes him and shows an interest, he in turn shows an interest in her and they both perpetuate it by continuing to show enthusiasm for each other. There is no arrogance here on either side. People do not have to have lots of common interests to have a relationship; have you ever heard of the term opposites attract? It's true that Peter and Liz do not have a lot in common but personality-wise their characters aren't too far apart and that's why they get along and have a relationship right now.

Liz has only shown arrogance in the series at the start of season 1 before Peter leaves her at the coffee shop. From that point forward the viewer can see that Liz isn't an arrogant "popular girl" like Sally Avril.

Not at all. If they were going about the path you suggest, then Gwen would have stood up for herself already. In literature, difficult situations lead to characters rising to the stuation. Gwen has had hers. And while it was good that she SAID that she won't be Peter's second choice, that stance falls by the wayside whenever they're in front of each other. So the character development is stalled.
No I do think that this is the path the producers have chosen because they have effectively said so when discussing the extrapolation of the Gwen character for the series.

It's only been a couple of months since Gwen built up enough courage and put herself out on a limb by kissing Peter and he consistently undermined what she did by not taking action or saying something. Naturally Gwen would then retreat somewhat but not completely and the comment you mention about not being second choice is a good example as well as other actions taken this season. No one would expect her to suddenly change character overnight because that is completely unrealisti.
 
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GOOD EP, better than the entire spiderman aspect of nearly all eps this series.

you could tell though the ep kinda focussed too much on the spidey aspect this week than normal but it was fine.

good start to a saga, all the big players showing their cards. It was an interesting mix but it didnt really give us much to go on for what will happen next week.

rhino was good as always, so was foswell.

hammerhead was good, just wished they would have gone with adamantium head instead of titanium.

i was unaware silver sable had superpowers.

giving her a nail gun was also a nice move, she got pretty roughed up for a chick.

more black cat would have been nice, i woudl have liked to see her retrieving the chip on behalf of norman osborne in the end rather than it being a fake all along.
 
Is it just me or does this version of Rhino seem a bit smarter?

LOL I just said that. He's no scholar but he's a pretty competent thug.

And Dragon, being justifiably confident enough to go after what (or who) she wants doesn't make a girl arrogant. It makes her self sufficient. If she made catty expressions at Gwen while they were competing for him or demanding unreasonable commitments from Peter, I could understand. But after missing out on dinner entirely, she not only forgave the boy but took his tardiness into consideration was glad he showed up at all. Maybe she ain't right for him but Liz is a Prize in my book.
 
sorry but hammerhead and silver sable beating up spidey? especially the latter when Spidey makes short work of Kraven

that was just ****ing stupid... I really hope they don't do that sort of crap again and show Spidey kicking the crap out of Hammerhead and Silver Sable...
 
This was another great episode. From the Black Cat intro, to Sable's, to Rhino stomping his way in, I really enjoyed it. I'd LOVE to see Hobgoblin show up later. "I got the thing on the thing!! What do I win??"

:woot:
 
sorry but hammerhead and silver sable beating up spidey? especially the latter when Spidey makes short work of Kraven

that was just ****ing stupid... I really hope they don't do that sort of crap again and show Spidey kicking the crap out of Hammerhead and Silver Sable...

Silver Sable and Hammerhead have done this for years, its nothing new. But the moment it happens in a cartoon, all the whiners come out of the woodwork.
 
LOL I just said that. He's no scholar but he's a pretty competent thug.

And Dragon, being justifiably confident enough to go after what (or who) she wants doesn't make a girl arrogant. It makes her self sufficient. If she made catty expressions at Gwen while they were competing for him or demanding unreasonable commitments from Peter, I could understand. But after missing out on dinner entirely, she not only forgave the boy but took his tardiness into consideration was glad he showed up at all. Maybe she ain't right for him but Liz is a Prize in my book.

Agreed.
 
sorry but hammerhead and silver sable beating up spidey? especially the latter when Spidey makes short work of Kraven

that was just ****ing stupid... I really hope they don't do that sort of crap again and show Spidey kicking the crap out of Hammerhead and Silver Sable...

Hammerhead has kicked Spidey's ass in the comics.
 
And again, super powers don't make you a better fighter. The super strenght, speed and agility are all well and good, but the expert knowledge how and where to kick and punch a person still counts. Spidey is not a real fighter, cause despite his super powers, he's just a kid who fights crime for less than a year. Hammerhead and Sable have probably done that their whole lives.
 
it was hinted silver sable had recently learnt her skills

unless i didn't get the subtle tones it was actually hammerhead who taught her to fight.
 
You must have a different understanding of what arrogance means because I don't see how Liz is being arrogant. She doesn't assume that Peter likes her and forces Peter to stay with her. She has followed the same pattern as any normal person would; she likes him and shows an interest, he in turn shows an interest in her and they both perpetuate it by continuing to show enthusiasm for each other. There is no arrogance here on either side.

Or maybe you don't understand what arrogance is. After Flash's injury, Liz calls Peter to wait with her. Then, when Flash appears she acts repeatedly like a b**** to Peter. She never apologizes to him for that, nor does she even realize she's done something wrong. THAT'S ARROGANCE. She breaks up with Flash and goes to Peter. She doesn't say: "I just broke up with Flash. Do you think you'd like to be exclusive?" She just just tells Peter that she broke up with Flash and ASSUMES that Peter wants to be exclusive. THAT'S ARROGANCE. Again, Peter is acting like a jerk here as well, leaving Gwen hanging while he's swayed by Liz's come on because she's (supposedly) hot.

People do not have to have lots of common interests to have a relationship; have you ever heard of the term opposites attract?

The opposites attract thing applies to sexual relationships, and quickly burns out. For anything to last with "opposites" common ground nust be found. And this doesn't apply here. This isn't a case of opposites attracting. They have nothing to be opposing. Again, Liz, having been with a total jerk like Flash is switching to the nice guy she can push around. It will also burn out. But again, the real problem is that Peter doesn't have the stones to stand up to her (Or really anyone). Not realistic for someone who's Spider-Man.

It's true that Peter and Liz do not have a lot in common but personality-wise their characters aren't too far apart and that's why they get along and have a relationship right now.

Their characters aren't too far apart now, in that she's a jerk and he's blossoming into a jerk.

Liz has only shown arrogance in the series at the start of season 1 before Peter leaves her at the coffee shop. From that point forward the viewer can see that Liz isn't an arrogant "popular girl" like Sally Avril.

I've explained above why Liz is arrogant. Sally isn't arrogant. She's a freakin' b****. But she's also just another cartoon cliche.


No I do think that this is the path the producers have chosen because they have effectively said so when discussing the extrapolation of the Gwen character for the series.

Then they need to get on the stick about developing this.

It's only been a couple of months since Gwen built up enough courage and put herself out on a limb by kissing Peter and he consistently undermined what she did by not taking action or saying something.

A FEW MONTHS? You kiss someone, they reject you and you're hanging on for a few months? That's not a strong character. That's a victim. And again this says then that Peter's "not that into her" or that he's a whimp and can't go for what he wants (Even after it's dropped in his lap), both being incorrect characterization for Peter. As Peter's being written he doesn't deserve a girl that really loves and is devoted to him.

Naturally Gwen would then retreat somewhat but not completely and the comment you mention about not being second choice is a good example as well as other actions taken this season. No one would expect her to suddenly change character overnight because that is completely unrealisti.

Faced with Peter's behavior, a strong girl like Gwen would move on. And I mentioned the "second choice" comment to point ot that Gwen is saying one thing and doing another. She SAYS she won't be Peter's second choice, but is clearly willing to be as shown when she was going to kiss him again in the "Identity Crisis" ep. In fact, she was willing to be less than his second choice, since Peter wasn't making any choice at all. He was just going to kiss a pretty girl. Guys do that all the time. And Peter again doesn't step up. Like I said, this eter doesn't deserve Gwen.
 
LOL I just said that. He's no scholar but he's a pretty competent thug.

And Dragon, being justifiably confident enough to go after what (or who) she wants doesn't make a girl arrogant. It makes her self sufficient. If she made catty expressions at Gwen while they were competing for him or demanding unreasonable commitments from Peter, I could understand. But after missing out on dinner entirely, she not only forgave the boy but took his tardiness into consideration was glad he showed up at all. Maybe she ain't right for him but Liz is a Prize in my book.

Interesting points.

Lis is in fact so arrogant that she doesn't even see that there is a connection between Peter and Gwen.

And accepting Peter's tardiness simply shows that she's accepting that he's becoming a jerk. She's used to dating jerks as with Flash. She the typicla victim/victimizer chick, that either is with a guy who treats her like crap, or treats a guy l;ike crap. So she's simply allowing Peter to switch sides and treat her like crap. She can't have a mutual, sharing relationship. She needs a power struggle.

And BTW- what was up with the **** suit Liz was wearing at the end? She comes into the hall in a t-shirt and (I hope) panites? Is this Spider-Man or porn?
 
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And again, super powers don't make you a better fighter. The super strenght, speed and agility are all well and good, but the expert knowledge how and where to kick and punch a person still counts. Spidey is not a real fighter, cause despite his super powers, he's just a kid who fights crime for less than a year. Hammerhead and Sable have probably done that their whole lives.

Spidey's strength means that a normal person can't hurt him. Can't move him, can't faze him. If they could, then again, Rhino, Venom, Sandman would KILL him.

His speed means they can't hit him at all. If he can dodge bullets, the fastest kick thrown by the most expert martial artist will not be fast enough to reach him.

His Spider-sense solidifies this, because he's reacting before they can even move.. The spider-sense is a form of clairvoyance. They THINK it, he knows it.

And his superhuman agility means he can come at them from angles they can't see or prepare for in their marital arts training. He moves in ways normal humans can't.

What the likes of Sable or Punisher or whomever would need to do is rely on their weaponry and leverness. Use bullets and bombs to keep Spidey off balnce. Blow up the walls he'd climb on and catch him mid movement.

And let's remember- ultimately Spidey is supposed to kick these people's asses.
 
I haven't read many of the comics but all I was looking at was how he has superhuman abilities and in one on one combat he got his ass handed to him by Silver Sable... which issues in the comic has Silver Sable clearly kicked his ass?
 
it was hinted silver sable had recently learnt her skills

unless i didn't get the subtle tones it was actually hammerhead who taught her to fight.
There were hints that Hammerhead taught her to fight, but that may have not been recently.

Dragon said:
Spidey's strength means that a normal person can't hurt him. Can't move him, can't faze him. If they could, then again, Rhino, Venom, Sandman would KILL him.
Spidey is not the Hulk or Ben Grimm, you know. Besides, he wasn't seriously hurt in this episode, it's just that Hammerhead and Sable proved more than capable to hold their own against him.

Dragon said:
His speed means they can't hit him at all. If he can dodge bullets, the fastest kick thrown by the most expert martial artist will not be fast enough to reach him.
Nor is he Quicksilver.

Dragon said:
His Spider-sense solidifies this, because he's reacting before they can even move.. The spider-sense is a form of clairvoyance. They THINK it, he knows it.
The spider-sense in SSM just makes him aware that there is danger, nothing more. In such fights it's kinda useless, cause he already knows that there is danger. In SSM it certainly isn't clairvoyance.

Dragon said:
And his superhuman agility means he can come at them from angles they can't see or prepare for in their marital arts training. He moves in ways normal humans can't.
I seriously doubt that he has developed his abilities so much. By the time of "Accomplices" Peter has been Spider-Man for less than a year (closer to 6-8 months, probably). He is still a kid and he still lacks experience and he certainly lacks expert knowledge how to fight and move so unnaturaly.

Dragon said:
What the likes of Sable or Punisher or whomever would need to do is rely on their weaponry and leverness. Use bullets and bombs to keep Spidey off balnce. Blow up the walls he'd climb on and catch him mid movement.
There was plenty of useage of weapons and even choppers and cars.

Dragon said:
And let's remember- ultimately Spidey is supposed to kick these people's asses.
Uh-huh. And that was the point - Spidey is supposed to kick their asses, but they are not just common thugs or even normal villains. They are the bosses. The point was to show that they are more dangerous than the rest of the villains.
 
Interesting points.

Lis is in fact so arrogant that she doesn't even see that there is a connection between Peter and Gwen.

And accepting Peter's tardiness simply shows that she's accepting that he's becoming a jerk. She's used to dating jerks as with Flash. She the typicla victim/victimizer chick, that either is with a guy who treats her like crap, or treats a guy l;ike crap. So she's simply allowing Peter to switch sides and treat her like crap. She can't have a mutual, sharing relationship. She needs a power struggle.

And BTW- what was up with the **** suit Liz was wearing at the end? She comes into the hall in a t-shirt and (I hope) panites? Is this Spider-Man or porn?

Have you...EVER been in a relationship?
 
I love that, Liz came without pants and showing her legs, but she gave her boyfriend a kiss in the cheek. The ironies of a kids tv show :P
 
right on Ratcrawler, i couldn't have said it better myself...

Lis is NOT some stupid **** or something, she fancies the pants off parker and went for her man and is very forgiving of him, Peter just needs to be fully honest with her but in no way is Peter being a total jerk to her or has never treated her badly... he just hasn't been there as often... but yes he should be honest with his feelings for gwen and break it off with lis since it's obvious it's gwen he likes
 
Originally Posted by Dragon
And BTW- what was up with the **** suit Liz was wearing at the end? She comes into the hall in a t-shirt and (I hope) panites? Is this Spider-Man or porn?

are you serious? it's night those are her Pajamas. Pete got there late so she was ready for bed. is that really that hard to figure out? a lot of girls usually sleep in a t-shirt and underwear. you are kind of over criticizing miniscule things like that.
 

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