Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

[Cain]

I don't see what's so hard to understand about Arkham Asylum. It seemed pretty straightforward to me. Sure, there were a few examinations and theories as to what made the villains (and Batman himself) tick, but over all, I thought it was one of the simplest comics I've ever read. Mind you, I'm sure it's not as simple as Batman vs. King Kong would be. Btw, Arkham Asylum isn't rated that highly as far as I know. I think opinions on it are pretty mixed. Some people love it, and some hate it. Some think it was just meh. But the reason why it has such a reputation is because of the disturbing artwork, more than anything story related.

I think it has to do with a lot of things not being explored enough in the story. A lot of the characters in it are just there as almost stock material and there is no real resolution at the end. Ultimately I think that's what turns off a lot of people that the story doesn't really live up to it's pretenses. That being said I do like it a lot as well but yeah McKean's work is more so why it's still relevant than Morisson's writing.

 

[Cain]

Waitaminute...

I know

Warren Ellis also writes various other comics besides his Ultimate work.

Yeah I'm 25 now and have been reading Ellis' comic work since my early teens. I know him as a comic writer more than anything else.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

He talked to no one in 'Tec 27 (except for "a fitting end for his kind"), or in any of the issues following up intil 'Tec 38, when Robin was introduced, which, besides allowing for broader audience appeal, was another reason he was brought in.

Here, the Bat-Man, wisecracking like Spider-Man in his best days

 

[Kevin Roegele]

that was the first story. Batman wasn't really dark in that one. He was dark in the story with monk or Doctor Death, Hugo Strange later. And in one of these "gritty" stories he asked for the way.

I didn't say he was dark in that one. Though I hardly need to, he is described within the very story as, 'a menacing figure' who punches a bad guy to his death into a tank of acid.

I said, "a guy caped in shadow who said almost nothing and dispatched gangsters to their death".

 

[DACrowe]

I don't think in black&white categories. I usually differentiate. Lines like "It's what YOU doooo that defines you" make me cringe, too. But really, "I mistook me for someone else", Bruce Wayne hanging down LIKE A BAT and such things... are just TOO much. Do you know why I don't care so much about characters? Because they are fictional AND they are written by different people with different views. So a real psychoanalysis becomes absolutely nonsense. Hey, and I am not only in for "fights", I liked well-plotted adventures, suspense stories... just not those pretentious psychobabble. That's awful.

And c'mon, everyone knows why stories like "Arkham Asylum" are rated high: No one knows what's going on there, no one wants to admit and so to show how "intellectual" they think they say it's "Wonderful". Gimme Batman versus King Kong over that anyday.

Well I understand your point of view, but have to say I could not disagree more. If you don't invest in the characters of any story in literature, film or comics, than it is just noise. It has no meaning. Exploring Batman as a character is what makes him interesting still, otherwise it is just recycled adventures of Batman vs. his rogues. Again this applies even to popcorn entertainment as Jaws is a masterpiece. Jurassic Park is unforgettable, ET and Close Encounters are moving. Saving Private Ryan is heartwrenching. And comparatively, Bay's summer popcorn flicks like Bad Boys, Armageddon, Pearl Harbor and Transformers are well edited and have some expensive eye candy that can create momentary suspense, but are ultimately mediocre and disposable pieces of bubble gum.

Too many superhero movies and fantasy pieces in general are like the latter, so I appreciate when a director or group of filmmakers and actors put more effort into it and try and make it like the former. That is why I can enjoy the "genre movies" of Christopher Nolan, Steven Speilberg, Robert Zemeckis, early George Lucas, Sam Raimi, and yes, Tim Burton.

P.S. You said it yourself Batman is written so differently from era to era and decade to decade that you try not to invest in any interpretation as each artist/writer will view him differently. So you accept them as they are created by that particular visionary? Then what is wrong with Tim Burton's views on the character just being one interpretation of Batman, no different than Christopher Nolan's. Technically speaking, ,I'd say Burton is closer to how Bob Kane and Bill Finger originally imagined the character as the shadowy, dark, somewhat menacing and mysterious figure who killed without compunction while facing off against some very freaky creatures? Burton's version of the villains really emphasizes their freak status.

If you dislike the depiction of Batman killing in the Burton movies, then you have a preference in how you like Batman to be represented and how he should be written. Thus you are invested into a particular version of the character.

 

[Chris Wallace]

If you watch the movie he was quite far from the crime scene. It was only the scream from the woman what caught his attention.



Yes.



As soon as he knew about the crime being committed he went right to the muggers and gave them the fright of their lives. One of them was sent directly to the hospital so he won’t be doing anithing criminal for some weeks IF he dares to relapse again.



Sadly for Batman, the technology found in Minority Report is not available so he can be around but he can’t predict where and when the crime will be exactly committed.



Because after Batman’s visit to the muggers, it’s clear they won’t be daring to rob anybody again.

Somwhere in the road you got convinced that being Batman allows you to be everywhere at the right time. But one person can be only at one place at a time. Scientific fact. In Batman’s own words “This is not a perfect world,” not even for a crime fighter.



Batman’s phantasmagoric presence. Those guys will be feeling Batman’s presence all around them for the rest of their lives. THAT is the point behind the suit and the weapons. They just saw a creature that was got shot and didn’t die. A creature than jumped off a roof and dissapeared in the air as if it wasn’t there at all. Superstition and ignorance in their minds will keep them afraid of their surroundings after seeing Batman. THAT’s why Batman is better than cops. Muggers don’t fear cops or jail anymore, so what if they’re sent into there. Corruption will keep them on the streets commiting crime soon afterwards. Not with Batman.

And, as an additional benefit that Batman intended, they’ll be telling everyone else about him, spreading the rumour and making the legend grow.



How can you prove there was nothing above? Or do you mean nothing above that we saw?



Because he deviated the Batwing dramatically upwards so to avoid the cathedral. Going above the clouds was just a natural consequence to that.



Then good for him and the victims. Those muggers won’t feel safe from now on.



That’s no more than a cliché. What separates Batman from criminals is that Batman doesn’t atack innocent people and criminals do, Batman doesn’t do what he does out of personal material benefit and criminals do, Batman saves future innocent victims of crime and criminals will make more innocent victims. In Burton’s movies he’s far from becoming a criminal, which is what criminals are.

You're missing my point once again. I found the entire scene to be poorly written. I would have found it much more satisfying to see him actually halt the mugging first & THEN go & teach those two losers a lesson. That would also make him more effective at his chosen mission.
And when you're on a rooftop, there's NEVER anything directly above you. I don't even remember there being a slightly taller adjacent building.

 

[Cain]

Technically speaking, ,I'd say Burton is closer to how Bob Kane and Bill Finger originally imagined the character as the shadowy, dark, somewhat menacing and mysterious figure who killed without compunction while facing off against some very freaky creatures? Burton's version of the villains really emphasizes their freak status.

That's the thing it has been stated that the golden age Batman was a huge influence on those films. Hell Keaton actually only blatantly killed twice the bombing of Axis in the first and the confetti bomb on the strong guy. Golden Age Batman was more of a killer than he was in this regard but people ***** about 1 scene in each movie. There are panels from golden age Batman comics that you see recreated in the first film. Yet people hold onto tired arguments as if Batman hasn't had different interpretations throughout his history. This is why he survived this long in the first place.

If you dislike the depiction of Batman killing in the Burton movies, then you have a preference in how you like Batman to be represented and how he should be written. Thus you are invested into a particular version of the character.

Exactly and there is nothing wrong with that either. Ultimately we all have a preference hell my ideal interpretation is not Burton's but in the movies his first movie came closest to it. But that's just what it is a preference it doesn't mean the one I like is "the one true Batman" there is no such thing with a character that has worn so many different faces. The only thing that matters is the constant Bruce Wayne's parents were killed he inherited their fortune and became a crime fighter. Everything else is left up to interpretation.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

LOL at the clown above me rating BEGINS as good as Batman: The Movie, and worse than B89 Returns and as good as Forever. You're a joke.

 

[sasquatchs]

You're missing my point once again. I found the entire scene to be poorly written. I would have found it much more satisfying to see him actually halt the mugging first & THEN go & teach those two losers a lesson. That would also make him more effective at his chosen mission.

Batman was on top of a skyscraper and the mugging took a few seconds...

More to the point, is handing someones handbag back the most effective way to introduce Batman?

And when you're on a rooftop, there's NEVER anything directly above you. I don't even remember there being a slightly taller adjacent building.

A crane? A gargoyle? A giant *****? Who cares. Same thing you have to assume in any Batman film. Batman hanging upside down at the docks in Begins the most recent example

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Burton's Batman was his own conception he was nothing like the Golden Age Batman. As you can see in the "page" I posted that this guy was actually quite extroverted. I could really appreciate an accurate adaption of the old Batman, but a strange guy in a castle in a rubber suit is hardly the early-Pulp Batman.

 

[The Joker]

LOL at the clown above me rating BEGINS as good as Batman: The Movie, and worse than B89 Returns and as good as Forever. You're a joke.

Always nice to see fellow Bat fans showing respect for eachother's opinions on what Batman movies they liked best.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

I'm just calling it like I see it ... haha, with my opinion

 

[Cain]

LOL at the clown above me rating BEGINS as good as Batman: The Movie, and worse than B89 Returns and as good as Forever. You're a joke.

I won't bother entertaining anything that comes from the diahrea puddle you consider a brain, you've proven yourself to be a joke more than once already.

 

[Cain]

Burton's Batman was his own conception he was nothing like the Golden Age Batman. As you can see in the "page" I posted that this guy was actually quite extroverted. I could really appreciate an accurate adaption of the old Batman, but a strange guy in a castle in a rubber suit is hardly the early-Pulp Batman.

Of course it's an adaptation a creator would put his own spin on things in an adaptation that's how they work. It's not going to be 'tec #27 - #37 as a two hour film. You don't understand what the word influence means apparently. There were clear and obvious influences from those comics in Burton's first film.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

I won't bother entertaining anything that comes from the diahrea puddle you consider a brain, you've proven yourself to be a joke more than once already.

Nothing as bad as those numbered reviews. haha

 

[Cain]

Nothing as bad as those numbered reviews. haha

For the last time stop trying to engage me in convo I only deal with posters who aren't fluent in bullsh**

 

[The Guard]

Someone beat me to this already, but...Batman not stopping the muggers in BATMAN is kind of a stupid complaint. He wasn't there to do so. The scream is the first thing that made him aware there was an issue. And Burton painted Batman as an agent of vengeance, not so much prevention. Which tends to be where he's most effective as a character archetype.

I like how Batman's suddenly not a hero in BATMAN because he kills. How many countless "heroes" has this world has over the years who has killed. How many did the 80's have?

 

[theMan-Bat]

yeah right. When he was with Alfred, Dick or Jason he played "Bruce Wayne". Right

No, when he was alone with Alfred, Dick or Jason he was Batman with or without the costume on. When he was in public without the costume on he hid beneath the disguise of Hugh Hefner-esque "Bruce Wayne, playboy and philanthropist."

 

[theMan-Bat]

Here, the Bat-Man, wisecracking like Spider-Man in his best days

Batman wisecracks in Batman and Batman Returns, too. "Alfred, why don't you marry her?", "Eat floor, high fiber", "Security? Who let Vicki Vale into the Batcave? I'm sitting there working, I turn around, it's like, 'Oh, hi, Vic, c'mon in'", "Excuse me, have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight" and "You weigh a little more than 108."

 

[Cain]

"those were the only ones I showed Tim Burton - I only let Tim see the original year of the Bob Kane/Bill Finger run, up until the time that Robin was introduced. I showed him the Steve Englehart/Marshall Rogers and the Neal Adams/Denny O'Neil stories. My biggest fear was that somehow Tim would get hold of the campiest Batman comics and then where would we be?" - Michael Uslan (executive producer of the WB Batman film franchise)

http://www.batman-on-film.com/interview_muslan_2.html

Once upon a time when BOF was a site I visited I remember someone made a thread made that cited the influences the golden age comics had on Burton's film. Here are some examples from that thread.

 

[Cain]

These might also ring familiar

 

[Cain]

some more

 

[Cain]

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

YES, there was bound to be similar images from a movie based on a comic book. haha

All the films have these elements.

 

[The Joker]

YES, there was bound to be similar images from a movie based on a comic book. haha

All the films have these elements.

It's not just similar images, it's similar scenarios there.

haha