Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

Discussion in 'Batman World' started by Bubastis, Jul 1, 2008.

  1. Man Who Laughed

    Man Who Laughed I'm nobody, really.

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    I like the movie b/c I grew up with it. I love it b/c its Batman. That said, I thought Returns was better. I hate how nobody addressed the whole "Bat" theme until Schumacher did BF. The way I look at it, BF is the easiest to watch. It's a popcorn flick. BR had the best story of the originals. B89 was good, but characters were under-developed, flawed, and out of their essence. Tim Burton didn't read the comics, so there's that. B&R is basically an atrocity. Modern day '66. And Begins has been the truest so far. Bruce doesn't know how to be Bruce, Batman wants to stop crime, not get revenge, Alfred is a father figure, and Gordon is the straight by-the-book cop that he is in the comics.
     
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  2. BatFan1986

    BatFan1986 Well-Known Member

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    Okay, this is your opinion, but however opinions can be null and void when factual events or evidence slaps you right in the face.

    Batman didn't willingly go after Joker with a gun, he shot the grappling gun in an attempt to keep his ass on the roof. He never set out to kill Joker, it was never implied that he was going to as far as I remember, he beat the hell out of him on the church, yeah, and he said that he had to stop him but absolutely no indication that he'd kill Joker.

    Keaton being hollow...Okay seriously, I hate to divide Batman fans like metalheads, but seriously? Do you need a Nolan to hold your hand through every movie/show/theater performance you see since you've seen Batman Begins? BB is a great movie, yes, but NOT every film after it needs to BE like it. In *MY* opinion, and in "reality" (not Nolans) Bruce Wayne would be emotionally hollow, it's been proven in the comics that he's somewhat unavailable in some emotional aspects, and though we start off following Batman in the 89 film in the alley, I think we get the hint that he's been doing this for quite some time now, not just a couple of weeks.

    Keaton by far IS the best live action Batman, did we see him go over to Hong Kong or wherever the hell it was to train for an hour before he dons the Batman persona? Nope. He's an emotionally awkward scarred Bruce Wayne which is EXACTLY how he should be portrayed in the comics but seeing as how DC Comics writers can't write for crap in a consistent manner when it comes to the caped crusader, throw any understanding of psychological value out the window now.

    The Joker dancing, being weird, eccentric, OFF HIS FREAKING ROCKER?! Why so serious? ...I mean, are you serious? Have you read the comic books? He does weird things, like I dunno, shoot Jim Gordon's daughter through the stomach and into (past?) the spine, paralyzing her and WHILE she crashes down on the coffee table, he makes sick jokes about coffee table books having weak spines. I mean c'mon now...

    And ALTHOUGH every other Batman obsessed fanatic has a problem with Alfred letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave, how about we all pay attention to what Bruce Wayne's only living parent said earlier:

    That he has no need to spend the rest of his remaining years grieving for the loss of loved ones, or their sons.

    That man, is THE BEST Alfred because he puts Bruce in his place and reminds him to stop being so obsessed with Batman, or spending so much time in the cave brooding. I view the Vicki Vale issue not bad, a violation of Bruce and Alfred's trust? Yes. Alfred's one last attempt to show Bruce that he can have a sense of normalcy in his life? You betcha.

    This is the problem I have with the boards (I'm not *****ing, mind you) is that to me DC Comics completely alienates their fans by not showing the true complexity that is Batman and thus we have posts like this one, while not ignorant, or useless, however it makes no sense because to me minus the fact The Joker was a criminal before being scarred by chemicals is the best Batman film ever.
     
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  3. raider34r

    raider34r Well-Known Member

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    wow, somebody feels the same way as i do
     
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  4. Nathan Petrelli

    Nathan Petrelli Well-Known Member

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    The point of Batman Begins was to show us who Bruce Wayne was before Batman and what he went through with his obsession to stop crime. Not only did it show us his training, but it also showed us a more in depth look a Bruce Wayne and who Batman is. By saying you want Batman to be all mysterious is basically saying you want Batman to be an empty character that we cannot feel for. If we didn't see Bruce's training, we would have just though. "Oh ok, this kid is pissed that his parents got killed and now he is a giant Bat". Not "Oh ok, this kid is pissed that his parents killed so he traveled the world studying criminals, found a league of ninjas who destroy cities that are plagued with crime and he uses theatrics to scare criminals straight".

    And as Mandalore said. Nolan made it clear so many times that he wanted to show everyone how Bruce Wayne became Batman.

    It's a Bruce Wayne story as much as a Batman one.
     
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  5. BatFan1986

    BatFan1986 Well-Known Member

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    Well you know, they should have picked up a better cast all the way around, as well as a different director.

    As I recall, the Spider-Man comics I had had webhead being a sarcastic ass inside of his suit and a doofus outside of it.

    Not a whiny heartbroken loser who speaks out of the side of his mouth while apparently going through puberty as his voice has more crack in it than Kim Kardashian's butt.
     
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  6. co2

    co2 Well-Known Member

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    I would still inlcude it on my personal list of the best comic book movies ever, but there might be something to it being over-rated. I remember the summer of '89 and it was Bat-crazy! No movie could honestly live up to the amount of public hype it generated. So from that standpoint, yeah it maybe was over-rated at the time.
     
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  7. Man Who Laughed

    Man Who Laughed I'm nobody, really.

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    To BatFan: Wow. Thanks for reminding me of that line that Alfred has. I still like Sir Michael Caine a bit more, b/c he seems more fatherly. Michael Gough's Alfred seemed too cold to be Bruce's father figure, but maybe that's why Keaton was playing him so detached...

    To Nathan Petrelli: While I would have been dealing in absolutes earlier, you're on to something with the "less is more." Although, I don't *want* to go to the movies and just watch a filmed comic book. I want to see interpretation. That's what I love about Bats. He's probably the least well-defined of the well known heroes, and easiest to reinterpret.(sp?)
     
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  8. omerhead

    omerhead Well-Known Member

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    I think B89 and BF had a little influence on the Spiderman films.

    Spiderman: Green Goblin kidnaps Mary Jane to lure Spiderman just like the Joker kidnaps Vicki Vale to lure Batman, Mary Jane kisses Peter Parker and Spiderman and finds out he's Spiderman just like in Batman Forever.

    Spiderman 2: He gives up on being Spiderman also in Batman Forever Bruce Wayne gives up being Batman.
     
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  9. The Guard

    The Guard Well-Known Member

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    He very much wanted to kill him. He says "I'm going to kill you!" when he's got him by the lapel. However, you can't say that Batman knew using his bola on The Joker would lead to The Joker's death. Batman couldn't possibly have known that the stone gargoyle would come loose like that, and that The Joker would be stupid enough to hang onto the ladder.

    I don't even know what this means. If you can't figure out Bruce Wayne's motivations and emotional state by the end of BATMAN, you're just not watching the movie. And if we're talking him being emotionally unavailable, that's simply not the case either. There are several scenes where Keaton gives some of the most emotional and immediate performances of the franchise in BATMAN. The dinner scene alone shows more "humanity" to him than most Batman actors had.

    He wasn't THAT emotionally awkward. People see him "forget" he's Bruce Wayne or Batman and go "He must be socially awkward". That's just not the case. The man may have been a tiny bit absentminded about his day to day affairs (like the comic book Wayne), but he was not that awkward, if at all.

     
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  10. Paste Pot Pete

    Paste Pot Pete No, I build a rocket.

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    Actually, he obviously tried to kill him a couple times.

    He blew up Axis Chemicals (and every goon inside), and you can assume he thought Joker was inside too.

    But if that's not enough for you, he aims his Batwing machine guns and missiles DIRECTLY at the Joker.

    Then, confronting him in the tower, he says "I'm going to kill you" - before punching him right off the rooftop. Had Joker not held on, he'd have been dead right then.
     
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  11. Kevin Roegele

    Kevin Roegele Do you mind if I don't?

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    The majority of people who have seen the Adam West TV show, any of the four Burton/Schumacher movies, the animated series, The Batman, etc etc would not have read the comics before.
     
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  12. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

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    Killing Joker is the best thing Batman could have done. That way he's saving a number of future victims. In Burton's movies, Gotham is so corrupt that jail might not be an option; Grissom was a dangerous mobster and a killer and he was always a free man.
     
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  13. Mr. Socko

    Mr. Socko Well-Known Member

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    :lmao:

    Yes, it's rather unanimous that this Batman was a killer and it was in his best interests to wipe out the Joker and his goons. I've only skimmed the last two pages but are people arguing over whether Batman killed or not...:huh:
     
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  14. the_monk

    the_monk Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if "over-rated" is quite the correct term for how I feel about it. It certainly has its place in Batman movie history, and is a huge step above most of the other films.

    However, it's not totally my cup of tea. Nicholson is kind of just "Nicholson" and most of the movie feels a bit "stiff", as if to mimic the difficulty Keaton had moving in the suit. He has to scissor his whole body to actually complete a kick. I mean, people complain about the action in Batman Begins...

    Some of it is good though, such as the Joker digging Vicki Vale's war photography.
     
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  15. Mr. Socko

    Mr. Socko Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I am aware that most do prefer Batman Begins. I've got no problem with whatever anyone prefers, even if it's Batman & Robin. It's just nonsensical that I go over to the TDK board and even this board and every thread I open contains numerous "I hate hate hate" posts about everything Tim Burton's Batman films consists of. And now several threads dedicated to it to boot.
     
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  16. BatFan1986

    BatFan1986 Well-Known Member

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    Haha I thought that Batman did say "I'm going to kill you" to Joker but couldn't quite remember it.

    What I mean by being emotionally unavailable is that, in BR you see that he can't really be in a relationship with someone who hasn't been there from the very beginning, you know what I mean? I mean this by being in this film, not so much a relation towards the comics, even then Bruce has a slew of problems.

    Yes he can interact, but otherwise he's way too concerned with avenging his parents. Which is to be expected, I mean even in the comics his every move and breath as Batman is to make sure the death of Thomas and Martha Wayne never happens again.

    I never thought the blowing up of Axis chemicals was to kill any goons or the Joker, actually I thought it was to send a message, as well as destroy any remaining chemical poisons Joker had left over.

    I dunno, it's hard for me to really evaluate all of Bat's motives in this movie because of it's really weird continuities, because I think of something like in Hush where Batman flips the hell out and beats the Joker unconscious and is trying to kill him and Gordon has to scream at him to back off (as well fire shots at him). So, who knows if he really was going to kill him...I'd say in the long run with you guys posts, haha oh yeah, Batman was going for the kill.
     
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  17. Kevin Roegele

    Kevin Roegele Do you mind if I don't?

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    I'm all for Burton's Batman killing people. He's the most unstable version of the character, he treads a very thin line between being a crime-fighter and a vengeance-driven lunatic. No-one wants to see him killing bad guys all over the place, but occasionally going too far just illustrates the fact that he is a very morally dubious character.
     
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  18. Bat Attack

    Bat Attack Mirth

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    LOL, overrated? OVERRATED?! Haha! Thanks for the laugh. It's the most bashed movie by acne covered fanboys right now because of the TDK, if anything it's the most UNDERRATED movie ever! :o Haha, thats why I hate these fourms now, all the new members are idiots. haha. oh well. miss the good old days of 2005 and 2006, back when you could actually have a conversation that was worthwhile on here.:(
     
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  19. Nathan Petrelli

    Nathan Petrelli Well-Known Member

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    Because 2005 is SOOOOO old school.
     
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  20. CFE

    CFE This is a job for...

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    After reading the OP again, I decided to take a crack at it:


    Keaton was the most psychologically driven and empathetic live action Batman. As someone's sig suggests Bale might have played Batman...but Keaton WAS Batman.

    1: It's BASINGER
    2: Kim was in the film because following Sean Young's accident, she was available. Then as a pleasant surprise, she pulled off a decent performance on short notice.
    3: Don't make a Kevin Smith/Superman Lives reference. It's tacky.

    Batman DOES exist out of revenge for his parents! As for the murder, that's how it was in 1939, and you obviously had to have known that portion of the mythology was the primary inspiration for the film.

    I suppose it's all a matter of opinion. Though for the record I cheered on for Keaton's Batman to succeed more than I ever did for Kilmer or Clooney.

    Again...How it was in '39.

    It's a movie. From the moment Bruce 'goes to work' to the moment where Batman saves Vicki and himself from plummeting to their deaths...you should be doing absolutely NOTHING but being entertained. As opposed to "Begins" which, for reasons that escape me, insisted on cutting away from the climax every so often to remind me (by remind me, I mean hit me over the head) with Ras' evil plan of 'blowing the water supply.'

    Again...It's a movie. And it's called the Batwing...please keep the terminology correct.

    See the first response of this post.

    There's an aspect to the Joker's character that always acts like a fool in public. Especially since Jack's idea of the character was that of him being mentally "short-wired" following the chemical bath at Axis. I mean the scene was essentially Joker killing every patron in an Art Museum (sans Vale) with toxic gas, then SPASTICALLY DANCING AROUND THEIR CORPSES to boistrous Pop Music while vandilizing the Art. If that doesn't scream Joker, I don't know what the hell does.

    And Prince's songs rocked...If you're gonna nitpick about THAT, of all things, don't bother...

    An Anti-Batman PR Campaign? The Joker making Batman look bad to the public?

    Huh...sounds an awful lot like an aspect of what the Joker's doing in "TDK" as well doesn't it...

    -----

    I didn't bother with the rest. Both El Payaso and Kevin have pointed out on numerous occasions the logic behind Alfred revealing Bruce's identity to Vicki in an effort to emotionally save him.

    And the last arguement was garbage, so THAT was entirely ignored.

    CFE
     
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  21. xero1186

    xero1186 Well-Known Member

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    Because Miller wrote Batman: Year One to talk about his "First YEAR" as Batman. Batman Begins is his ascension to becoming Batman. Year One only shows 14 pages of Bruce as he comes back to Gotham, fighting some thugs, bleeding in the study and then BAM next page he's Batman. Batman Begins isn't Batman Year One, and it wasn't trying to be. I DO think it was used as a nice reference point for the character's development.

    There are a lot more things wrong with the 89 Batman over the Begins Batman but as many have said, and I agree, without it we wouldn't be where we are as it is another level of Batman's growing lore over the last almost 75 years.
     
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  22. xero1186

    xero1186 Well-Known Member

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    It was actually explained in the animated series.

    + I agree with the person who said it's a Bruce Wayne movie as well as a Batman movie. That's what made it so great for me.

    They could've done a whole film without him actually becoming Batman and show some of the training he had before he met Ras and I would've been satisfied.

    But I digress, the real point is this;

    89 Batman and Begins Batman are very different and to compare the two of them to each other is looking at it all in the wrong way. They're movies from two very different decades. A lot has changed in Batman's lore in the period between the two films. If one or the other doesn't entertain you then don't watch. But don't come on here trying to lord your opinion over people that have strong nostalgic ties to the 89 rendition of the character and expect everyone to just start Burton-bashing.
     
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  23. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

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    Yes. In fact any action movie looks better than blurry random shots glued together.
     
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  24. Nathan Petrelli

    Nathan Petrelli Well-Known Member

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    I suggest you watch a different Keaton movie besides Batman. Your opinion on him being the most "psychologically driven and empathetic live action Batman" will change after you realize he acts in the same style each and every movie he is in..
     
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  25. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

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    Naturally, it's hard to tell the difference between Batman and Multiplicity.
     
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