Am I the only one who feels like B'89 is vastly overrated?

[Hole Shot]

Gotcha. I love his delivery there. That's my favorite line of his.

Next time you watch this movie you're going to think back to this conversation and crack-up. Billy Dee is just so smooth there, he goes "GHOSTS! and goblinnnnnnnnnnnnns!" then puts his stogie back in his mouth but the icing on the cake is that right when he does that there is this hottie standing next to him with a HUGE aftro - Harvey Dent, Gotham City District Baller!

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Billy Dee is great in that part if I do say so myself!

 

[co2]

"This town needs an enima!"
One of my all time favorite lines.

 

[theMan-Bat]

My favorite lines are "never rub another man's rhubarb" and The Joker calling Batman a "gruesome son of a *****."

 

[Lazlo Panaflex]

- Bruce Wayne being this mysterious man that no one really knows anything about. And how it's a total shock to Vale and Knox to find out Thomas and Martha Wayne were murdered. Nice job knowing the town you cover, Knox!

Well Bruce Wayne throwing a charity at his own mansion where everybody in Gotham happens to know the address doesn't qualify him as mysterious.

But you do bing up a good point that I mentioned in another thread that how is it possible that both Knox and Vicki who both work at a newspaper have NEVER taken a picture of Bruce Wayne to know what he looks like as you see their puzzled looks when Wayne introduces himself.

Also Knox and Vicki were too young to remember about the Wayne's murder to put a connection.

 

[The Guard]

Knox is not a photographer, he seemed to be a crime beat reporter, and Vicki Vale just came to Gotham, far as I could tell. Who's to say they would recognize Bruce, not being a part of "high society"?

And since when have people know everything about Bruce Wayne? They know he's a playboy in BATMAN, and a player in Gotham, and that's all they need to know.

 

[Hole Shot]

Well Bruce Wayne throwing a charity at his own mansion where everybody in Gotham happens to know the address doesn't qualify him as mysterious.

But you do bing up a good point that I mentioned in another thread that how is it possible that both Knox and Vicki who both work at a newspaper have NEVER taken a picture of Bruce Wayne to know what he looks like as you see their puzzled looks when Wayne introduces himself.

Also Knox and Vicki were too young to remember about the Wayne's murder to put a connection.

Unless Knox is a recent resident of Gotham as well, I just find it hard to believe that the everyday citizen, much less the press, would not know that big bit of trivia about the city's biggest socialite.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

you people think BEGINS & TDK are so great...

i dunno about any of you, but to even compare them to 1989 BATMAN is a travesty...


1) the music was better in B89

2) that movie was marketed 10 times more heavily than any other batfilm

3) the sets were better

4) everything about B89 was darker


yes these NOLAN things are very very good, but if you weren't there in the theater in 89 and you weren't around to see the hype, then don't even talk...

the guy who started this thread fails to realize what a masterpeice BATMAN 1989 was.

 

[El Payaso]

you people think BEGINS & TDK are so great...

i dunno about any of you, but to even compare them to 1989 BATMAN is a travesty...


1) the music was better in B89

2) that movie was marketed 10 times more heavily than any other batfilm

3) the sets were better

4) everything about B89 was darker


yes these NOLAN things are very very good, but if you weren't there in the theater in 89 and you weren't around to see the hype, then don't even talk...

the guy who started this thread fails to realize what a masterpeice BATMAN 1989 was.

I agree. For a 20 years Bat-movie it's still groundbreaking and a success at entertaining.

 

[CFE]

you people think BEGINS & TDK are so great...

i dunno about any of you, but to even compare them to 1989 BATMAN is a travesty...


1) the music was better in B89

2) that movie was marketed 10 times more heavily than any other batfilm

3) the sets were better

4) everything about B89 was darker


yes these NOLAN things are very very good, but if you weren't there in the theater in 89 and you weren't around to see the hype, then don't even talk...

the guy who started this thread fails to realize what a masterpeice BATMAN 1989 was.

CFE

 

[Hole Shot]

you people think BEGINS & TDK are so great...

i dunno about any of you, but to even compare them to 1989 BATMAN is a travesty...


1) the music was better in B89

2) that movie was marketed 10 times more heavily than any other batfilm

3) the sets were better

4) everything about B89 was darker


yes these NOLAN things are very very good, but if you weren't there in the theater in 89 and you weren't around to see the hype, then don't even talk...

the guy who started this thread fails to realize what a masterpeice BATMAN 1989 was.

I was there, I was 9 years old, I saw it like six times in the theater, had countless Batman T-shirts from the movie, dressed as Batman that Halloween and still have the movie cowl in my closet, was the only person in the living room last fall when the promo for that one show came on and he went "Vic-Vicky Vale Vic-Vicky Vale" that knew what he was talking about, watch Batman 89 again a couple nights ago. I can credit that movie more than anything for my appreciation of comics and superhero flicks.

And I still prefer Nolan's work.

And I'm a Burton fan! Seriously, I'm the only person I know that LOVES, LOVES Big Fish.


P.S. I had to look, you were 2 years old in 89. So you weren't really there either

 

[Dark Globe]

you people think BEGINS & TDK are so great...

i dunno about any of you, but to even compare them to 1989 BATMAN is a travesty...


1) the music was better in B89

2) that movie was marketed 10 times more heavily than any other batfilm

3) the sets were better

4) everything about B89 was darker


yes these NOLAN things are very very good, but if you weren't there in the theater in 89 and you weren't around to see the hype, then don't even talk...

the guy who started this thread fails to realize what a masterpeice BATMAN 1989 was.

You haven't even seen TDK yet. For all you know, TDK could rip Batman89 a new *******. Also, Batman89 darker? I doubt it.

 

[NUFFSAID2004]

The first Batman is an extremely important film. Up until this, the only live-action Batman we had to go on was Adam West's campy take on the character. This is the film that broke out of that shell, bringing Batman to the grim, gritty, and dark avenger that he truly is. Sure, the movie had it's high points as well as it's low points. However, without a film like this to actually break the mold, then you wouldn't have a Batman Begins or a Batman:TAS. Also remember that Batman '89 was more than just a movie, it was more like an event.

 

[NUFFSAID2004]

The first Batman is an extremely important film. Up until this, the only live-action Batman we had to go on was Adam West's campy take on the character. This is the film that broke out of that shell, bringing Batman to the grim, gritty, and dark avenger that he truly is. Sure, the movie had it's high points as well as it's low points. However, without a film like this to actually break the mold, then you wouldn't have a Batman Begins or a Batman:TAS. Also remember that Batman '89 was more than just a movie, it was more like an event.

 

[BatFan1986]

You haven't even seen TDK yet. For all you know, TDK could rip Batman89 a new *******. Also, Batman89 darker? I doubt it.

No. We haven't seen TDK. Absolutely not.

We've seen Nolan's Gotham, and his Batman world though. With that said, Burton's Gotham and his Batman world is a much more sinister place.

It's not like Chicago, or New York, it's like hell on earth, it looks like hell on earth, it acts like hell on earth and it feels like hell on earth. Even during the day it's not pretty.

The villains aren't "insane" they know exactly what the hell they're doing when doing it. Batman is much grittier than Bale's, does he kill? Yep. It's a darker version.

 

[co2]

I just rewatched this film after not having seen it for almost 3 years. I can't speak for TDK yet, but '89 is absolutely darker than Begins. Burton's Gotham is more demented and twisted in a nightmarish way. Even batman himself reflects this in his willingness to kill (it was the 80's and killing was a real measure of a man )

 

[the_scream]

I used to love this film back when I was 10. Who didn't? The only exposure to Batman I ever had was Adam West's camp tv series. This was a dark, disturbing, action-packed film in 89.

However, a watched this movie the other night and couldn't believe how sloppy it is made. There are so many scenes that just seem to appear without having a real flow or context. Take the scene with Joker first revealing himself to Jerry Hall. She faints. The scene immediately cuts to the Joker sitting around with the mob bosses. WTF? When did he organise this? Did it happen two seconds after the previous scene? The cut is very jarring and makes no sense.

In fact, re-watch the film. The majority of the Joker scenes at the chemical plant could conceivable appear at any point in the film. They don't always flow from any plot developments in the film.

Instead, the film appears to be shot around set pieces rather than the other way around. Batman doesn't assist the dying people of Gotham until they actually start dying. He flys around his batwing waiting for something to happen? On that note, how did he know the Joker was going to be bringing out big balloons? He certainly seems prepared with the device in the wing designed primarily to scoop up the balloon cables.

Next, he fires everything in his arsenal at the Joker. I don't mind that this Batman is a blood thirsty bastard. But I do mind that all the Joker's goons die while the Joker stands there completely unharmed. Why? Because the script called for it. Ridiculous. Once again this happens when the Joker's goons somehow get to the top of the church tower. Why? Because Batman needs to fight someone. Forget how they got there.

Jack Nicholson's Joker was fun back in 89 but now he seems really light weight. I first noticed this after I saw TAS with Mark Hamill's amazing voice performance. Jack just doesn't seem insane. You can really tell he is acting and forcing out the laughs.

The only good thing about the movie now is the music. Terrific score that energises and "fakes" excitement. I mean "fake" in that it is designed to pump up the audience in the absence of a truly exciting film.

 

[El Payaso]

However, a watched this movie the other night and couldn't believe how sloppy it is made. There are so many scenes that just seem to appear without having a real flow or context. Take the scene with Joker first revealing himself to Jerry Hall. She faints. The scene immediately cuts to the Joker sitting around with the mob bosses. WTF? When did he organise this? Did it happen two seconds after the previous scene? The cut is very jarring and makes no sense.

You see, editing in cinema is quite useful. Not only creates atmospheres and mood but it also saves us to see things that are useless. Like Joker making a bunch of phone calls or characters taking a pee or sleeping their 8 hours.

Sometimes they show people getting into a car and 2 seconds later they’re already arriving. Sometimes they show a character going to bed and 2 seconds later it is the next morning. But it doesn’t mean that the trip by car lasted 2 seconds or that nights last two seconds.

Editing, in a few words, allows us to see a story that happens in two weeks in 2 hours. And thank God for that.

In fact, re-watch the film. The majority of the Joker scenes at the chemical plant could conceivable appear at any point in the film. They don't always flow from any plot developments in the film.

There’s only one scene with Joker at the chemical plant. It’s when he’s sending the products for public consumption. Next scene, we see the victims. Makes sense.

Instead, the film appears to be shot around set pieces rather than the other way around. Batman doesn't assist the dying people of Gotham until they actually start dying. He flys around his batwing waiting for something to happen?

Batman flies around to see the way things are happening so to know what to do in the most effective way. Results are there, in his second round he gets rid of all of the balloons at once. That way you save everyone and not only the first victims.

On that note, how did he know the Joker was going to be bringing out big balloons? He certainly seems prepared with the device in the wing designed primarily to scoop up the balloon cables.

That’s what makes Batman so cool. He’s prepared for everything.

He should have known about the parade since it was probably on TV. So he got the armed plane. Then the plane – as any of his other vehicles traditionally – was equipped with many other devices for other kind of situations.

Next, he fires everything in his arsenal at the Joker. I don't mind that this Batman is a blood thirsty bastard. But I do mind that all the Joker's goons die while the Joker stands there completely unharmed.

In fact some of the goons fell by themselves, not touched by Batman’s bullets. But it looked like the Joker was too much of a small target.

Why? Because the script called for it. Ridiculous.

I’d call a script that preserves the villiain fort the big climax brilliant.

Once again this happens when the Joker's goons somehow get to the top of the church tower. Why? Because Batman needs to fight someone. Forget how they got there.

There are an amazing invention to get to top of things; it’s called stairs. Obviously Joker thought that if he had to run, the top of the cathedral and the helicopter was a good choice and quite spectacular, like he likes things. And he knew he needed a failsafe to escape since he knew Batman was coming.

Jack Nicholson's Joker was fun back in 89 but now he seems really light weight. I first noticed this after I saw TAS with Mark Hamill's amazing voice performance. Jack just doesn't seem insane. You can really tell he is acting and forcing out the laughs.

Strange, I hear Hammill and it’s pure overacting. Great for cartoons of course.

But Nicholson’s actions are those from a truly mad man.

The only good thing about the movie now is the music. Terrific score that energises and "fakes" excitement. I mean "fake" in that it is designed to pump up the audience in the absence of a truly exciting film.

On the contrary, the action this time is not choppy or blurry like in other more recent Bat-movie where lousy editing tried to “fake” good fight scenes.

 

[Joe Von Zombie]

you people think BEGINS & TDK are so great...

i dunno about any of you, but to even compare them to 1989 BATMAN is a travesty...


1) the music was better in B89

2) that movie was marketed 10 times more heavily than any other batfilm

3) the sets were better

4) everything about B89 was darker


yes these NOLAN things are very very good, but if you weren't there in the theater in 89 and you weren't around to see the hype, then don't even talk...

the guy who started this thread fails to realize what a masterpeice BATMAN 1989 was.

How the hell does that factor into the over all QUALITY of a film? It doesn't. Yes Burton's Batman is darker but Nolan's take on the subject matter is a more mature (and by mature I don't mean dark and violent) approach to the character and as many people have already pointed out, TDK isn't out yet so you cant compare them, but given the reviews Ive read, it could very well be darker than Burton's films. I was around to see the hype, Batman was everywhere, but that means absolutely nothing in the context of the films quality.

 

[the_scream]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You see, editing in cinema is quite useful. Not only creates atmospheres and mood but it also saves us to see things that are useless. Like Joker making a bunch of phone calls or characters taking a pee or sleeping their 8 hours.

Sometimes they show people getting into a car and 2 seconds later they’re already arriving. Sometimes they show a character going to bed and 2 seconds later it is the next morning. But it doesn’t mean that the trip by car lasted 2 seconds or that nights last two seconds.

Editing, in a few words, allows us to see a story that happens in two weeks in 2 hours. And thank God for that.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You see, editing can also be jarring when there is no flow from scene to scene. Like many scenes in Batman 89 it is poorly edited. There is no build up to it. No mention of the crime bosses or when Joker assembled his goons again. Even Burton wasn't happy with the way the first Batman turned out.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There’s only one scene with Joker at the chemical plant. It’s when he’s sending the products for public consumption. Next scene, we see the victims. Makes sense.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Huh? Dude, watch more closely. Joker spends most of his time there. Didn’t you ever notice the all the pipes in the background such as when he is cutting out photos.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Batman flies around to see the way things are happening so to know what to do in the most effective way. Results are there, in his second round he gets rid of all of the balloons at once. That way you save everyone and not only the first victims.

[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]And fly up around the clouds too. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That’s what makes Batman so cool. He’s prepared for everything.

He should have known about the parade since it was probably on TV. So he got the armed plane. Then the plane – as any of his other vehicles traditionally – was equipped with many other devices for other kind of situations.

[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Including a convenient device that grabs onto balloon cables then cuts them. Perhaps he has some shark repellent spray in his utility belt too just in case he comes across an exploding shark.


[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In fact some of the goons fell by themselves, not touched by Batman’s bullets. But it looked like the Joker was too much of a small target.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]For machine guns and rockets fired right at a locked target? Can’t argue with that illogic when a few seconds before he managed to lock onto a series of cables waving about in the wind with no problems whatsoever.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I’d call a script that preserves the villiain fort the big climax brilliant.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yeah, except it can be done without being blatently contrived.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There are an amazing invention to get to top of things; it’s called stairs. Obviously Joker thought that if he had to run, the top of the cathedral and the helicopter was a good choice and quite spectacular, like he likes things. And he knew he needed a failsafe to escape since he knew Batman was coming.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A few minutes after Batman crashed. If the goons left just before the Joker, they would still be climbing the stairs. But the movie is too lazy to even have a passing line of dialogue for the Joker to say "meet me at the Church boys".[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Strange, I hear Hammill and it’s pure overacting. Great for cartoons of course.

But Nicholson’s actions are those from a truly mad man.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Actions not acting. There is a difference. The acting is just Jack Nicholson playing Jack. The Joker is supposed to be truly insane. Hamil's Joker isn't overracting. The Joker, by his very nature, is over-the-top. That's the point.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]On the contrary, the action this time is not choppy or blurry like in other more recent Bat-movie where lousy editing tried to “fake” good fight scenes.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The editing in BB is to create a sense that this guy is fast and deadly and can presumably disappear. Difficult to achieve with anyone who isn’t Batman in real life. It isn't perfect but mile better than the Burton fight scenes which are too overtly choreographed. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In the words of Neeson "This is not a Dance!"[/FONT]

 

[Dark Globe]

No. We haven't seen TDK. Absolutely not.

We've seen Nolan's Gotham, and his Batman world though. With that said, Burton's Gotham and his Batman world is a much more sinister place.

It's not like Chicago, or New York, it's like hell on earth, it looks like hell on earth, it acts like hell on earth and it feels like hell on earth. Even during the day it's not pretty.

The villains aren't "insane" they know exactly what the hell they're doing when doing it. Batman is much grittier than Bale's, does he kill? Yep. It's a darker version.

I'm sorry, but I can't take your comments seriously. Batman89 was like a kids flick and not really dark at all. The only thing dark about it was the lighting.

 

[the_scream]

I'm sorry, but I can't take your comments seriously. Batman89 was like a kids flick and not really dark at all. The only thing dark about it was the lighting.

To be fair, it was dark at the time when a lot of these movies were much lighter. It was also very violent and twisted. But, after viewing so many of Burton's films that have the same kind of "darkness" it is now much clearer that the violence and darkness is more black and cartoon-like than anything.

Nolan's Batman is more mature, and dark. Just the scene where Batman catches on fire and falls three or four stories to the ground in pain. That scene is very dark and disturbing. The mix of music and quick cuts, Bale's tormented expression. Like a real nightmare.

 

[batpawn]

i can't believe this...

The first Batman is an extremely important film. Up until this, the only live-action Batman we had to go on was Adam West's campy take on the character. This is the film that broke out of that shell, bringing Batman to the grim, gritty, and dark avenger that he truly is. Sure, the movie had it's high points as well as it's low points. However, without a film like this to actually break the mold, then you wouldn't have a Batman Begins or a Batman:TAS. Also remember that Batman '89 was more than just a movie, it was more like an event.

... it's okay if you say batman 89 is a masterpiece, even though that tim burton himself doesen't like what it turned out (but that doesn't say much, since he thinks batman returns is the far superior film) but please stop the "without batman 89, there won't be begins" ********. christopher nolan said damn often that he wanted to create a new franchise, in his style, it was his idea and damn much his style. to say there won't be a batman with a dark tone without batman 89 is nonsense. batman was a dark and gritty character even BEFORE 1989, do you really think nobody would have ever came up with the idea of making a dark batman movie, without burtons flick? seriously, give me a break.

i understand if you think that batman 89 is the best movie of all time, that's okay, that's your personal opinion, but there damn sure would have been a dark batman, even without batman 89.

 

[El Payaso]

[FONT=&quot]You see, editing can also be jarring when there is no flow from scene to scene. Like many scenes in Batman 89 it is poorly edited. There is no build up to it. No mention of the crime bosses or when Joker assembled his goons again. Even Burton wasn't happy with the way the first Batman turned out.[/FONT]

Oh you mean like being on one thing and then, without even a change on the music to skip to a random guy randomly explaining something about a microwave emitter that hasn't been even mentioned before

There's no need to introduce the crime bosses as at this point we all klnow there are crime bosses all over Gotham; Dent himsalf has talken about the "nest of vipers."

Burton wasn't happy of so much pressure into a commercial movie. He didn't say anything about the editing of scenes that had enough background.

[FONT=&quot]Huh? Dude, watch more closely. Joker spends most of his time there. Didn’t you ever notice the all the pipes in the background such as when he is cutting out photos.[/FONT]

Oh yes, after he sends Bob to take pics on a previous scene in that place, he is actually checking those very pics. Then he finds out about Vicky Vale and then he decides he's going after her which leads to the museum scene.

Oops, makes perfect sense again!

The background of that scene and what happens immediatelly after that with Joker and Vicky is perfectly connected.

[FONT=&quot]And fly up around the clouds too.[/FONT]

Yeah, it's a shame we can't have those iconics shots in every movie because the action is pure choppiness and nothing can be seen.

Including a convenient device that grabs onto balloon cables then cuts them. Perhaps he has some shark repellent spray in his utility belt too just in case he comes across an exploding shark.

Repellent? He could use an harpoon like the kind of guns he always uses but bigger. Still makes sense.

But yes, devices to grab things, in this case ropes, is very convenient for someone who's traditionally farsighted and well-prepared.

[FONT=&quot]For machine guns and rockets fired right at a locked target? Can’t argue with that illogic when a few seconds before he managed to lock onto a series of cables waving about in the wind with no problems whatsoever.[/FONT]

You mean Batman shot at Joker with the giant scissors?

[FONT=&quot]A few minutes after Batman crashed. If the goons left just before the Joker, they would still be climbing the stairs. But the movie is too lazy to even have a passing line of dialogue for the Joker to say "meet me at the Church boys".[/FONT]

That gives yourself away as a Batman Begins fan: the inconditional love for verbal explanations about every tiny detail that can be easily assumed.

[FONT=&quot]Actions not acting. There is a difference.[/FONT]

Please tell me what is it since actions defines the acting. "It's what I dooooo," remember?

Anyway, laughing or dancing when other poeople die is pretty crazy.

[FONT=&quot]The acting is just Jack Nicholson playing Jack.[/FONT]

Pretty close to the Joker and adding to that the mad man actions then the mix gives a satisfactory result.

[FONT=&quot]The Joker is supposed to be truly insane.[/FONT]

Like to char a man alive and laugh, dance and sing in the process.

Craziness check.

[FONT=&quot]Hamil's Joker isn't overracting. The Joker, by his very nature, is over-the-top. That's the point.[/FONT]

See how it is necessary to overact Joker, specially for a cartoon?

[FONT=&quot]The editing in BB is to create a sense that this guy is fast and deadly and can presumably disappear.[/FONT]

Weird, because the first fight of Bruce at jail was done the same way and he wasn't Batman yet. I smell lousy editing.

[FONT=&quot]Difficult to achieve with anyone who isn’t Batman in real life.[/FONT]

So because it's difficult they better don't do it but a mess of blurry choppy shots editing?

Isn't not doing something because it's too difficult the very definition of laziness?

And in any case, even when it worked the first time at the docks, that lousy way to solve the fights prevented us to see good Batman shots all throughout the movie.

[FONT=&quot]It isn't perfect but mile better than the Burton fight scenes which are too overtly choreographed.[/FONT]

They are perfectly rehearsed and executed. Spiderman vs Octopus fights were also - as in any other movie - coreographed. But luckily enough they didn't hide the good stuff behind a lousy editing and we could actually SEE what was happening. Which is a very good thing for this kind of movies

[FONT=&quot]In the words of Neeson "This is not a Dance!"[/FONT]

In words of El Payaso "This is not a fight scene!"

 

[Jack O Lantern]

That gives yourself away as a Batman Begins fan: the inconditional love for verbal explanations about every tiny detail that can be easily assumed

What would have made this film really great would have been after Bruce says, "Alfred, let's go shopping." That we see them actually shopping. We see them walking down the asiles, we see them at the checkout, we see them exhaging the cash for the goods, we see them bagging the items, we see them walking to the car park, we see them opening the boot, we see them putting the bags into the boot, we see them closing the boot, we see them getting into the car, we see them driving off, we see them arriving at Wayne Manor, we see them getting out of the car, we see them opening the boot, we see them taking out the bags, we see them closing the boot, we see them entering Wayne Manor. All while narrating their actions.

That would have been dark and mature.