Comics Amazing Spider-Man #604 SPOILERS/Discussion

stillanerd

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Well, here’s some more of my thoughts regarding this particular issue:

*Barry Kitson’s artwork comes across much better this time around. Perhaps it was due in part from the break in-between issues, but it doesn’t look nearly as bland as it did in issue #602, especially when it came MJ on the bed in Peter’s old bedroom and the last panel. So, it terms of the penciling, definite improvement.

*As for Van Lente’s script on the other hand, it’s a little mixed in my opinion. It’s pretty clear that he’s evoking two classic stories in this part, one being “Captured by J. Jonah Jameson” (Amazing Spider-Man #25) in that Jolly Jonah is using the technology from the very first Spider-Slayer for the Mandroids on his Anti-Spider-Squad, and, of course The Chameleon’s first appearance in Amazing Spider-Man #1, especially since both stories involve him impersonating a police officer. So if one is aware of Spider-Man history, they might get a nice sense of nostalgia from that--or may think Van Lente is trying a bit too hard.

*The other slight problem is that while certain things seem nicely resolved, it comes off a bit too neat for it’s own good. For example, I certainly appreciated Jonah getting his comeuppance for his crusade against Spider-Man here, as not only all of the member of his Anti-Spider-Squad resign and help Spidey get away due to his saving the city from a terrorist attack, but also the Deputy Mayor rightly tells him off before he resigns from office, proving Jonah’s rivalry with Spider-Man is not going to work as well as it did when he was a newspaper publisher. But, I really thought the way Spider-Man escaped from Chameleon’s acid pit just seemed to strain all sorts of credulity, from the fact he was able to apparently web himself up in protective cocoon for what seems like hours (given we don’t know how durable the webbing is and that the webs are supposed to dissolve in an hour) even though the acid is fast acting to kill someone in seconds, to the pit conveniently draining so he would eventually get out.

*Likewise, while I thought it was a good scene between Peter and MJ and them patching things up due to the fact she thinks he’s helped Harry with his living situation (not to mention, thanks to a shared joke about Doc Ock, it’s pretty obvious not only does MJ know he’s Spider-Man, but Peter knows that she knows), it just seems too easy and quick. Not to mention it’s a regression back to the Roger Stern and Tom Deflaco days in which MJ played the role of Peter’s ex-fiancée who is now his really good friend even though there’s still deep feelings for one another. Speaking of Harry’s new living arrangement--I thought the panel showing Harry lounging on the couch with those three bombshell Reilly cousins was classic.

*Of course the one development I’m not at all happy with is that Michelle Gonzales is now Peter’s new live-in “lover.” To be fair, though, she is operating under the mistaken impression that they are a couple and it’s very apparent Peter is not exactly thrilled with the idea himself. But that still doesn’t make the situation any less contrived or any less troubling, especially since the foundation for this “relationship“ was built on the disturbing aspect of the Chameleon seducing Michelle under the guise of being Peter. The whole development of Peter’s new “relationship” carries with it rather sexist undertones and Michelle herself, as I said before, comes off less of character than more of a walking plot device. At best, she’s the typical moody, overly-demanding girlfriend; at worst she’s an ethnic stereotype. Of course, the only consolation to all this that this “relationship” is so obviously designed to fail that the quicker this “pairing” is over, the better.

BTW, if you really want to see why the the Peter and Michelle pairing is bad, a poster by the name of K-Box, a.k.a. CrazySugarFreakBoy, at comic boards says it much better, albeit far more harshly, than I can here: http://www.comicboards.com/app/show.php?rpy=smb-2009091018150649

*Finally, I know that comic books these days are designed to set-up the next big arc, but it still doesn’t make it any less frustrating. Granted, I am a little curious about the Chameleon teaming up with Kraven’s widow from Kraven’s First Hunt as the Gauntlet storyline is essentially getting underway here, but still it would have been nice to at least wrap up the Chameleon side of things.

With that said, it looks like the epilogue next week will essentially be the only comic really worthy of the title “Red-Headed Stranger” as it will focus more on MJ--which is what this entire five part story arc was advertised as being in the first place. Not that the story hasn’t been okay, mind you, but certainly for something that was touted as Mary Jane’s return to the supporting cast, it still comes off as a bit of a bait-and-switch. Still, I guess we’ll see how the “epilogue” turns out.
 
I think this post from S_D says it best about the whole Michelle thing:

HA HA HA SHE JUST NEEDED A GOOD STIFF ONE TO SET HER STRAIGHT AMIRITE???

NEVER MIND THAT IT WAS A SUPERVILLAIN WHO RAPED HER USING PETER'S FACE, BECAUSE COMEDY!!!

... S**t like this makes me think that whoever wrote it believes that vaginas have teeth.

Also, s**t like that is what really stops me from enjoying these stories, I don't give a damn how "classic" the supervillains are.

And remember when JJJ had at least a little bit of personality, and wasn't a walking charactature? Those were good times. :csad:
 
Me likee the book... that's all that matters to me.

:yay:
 
Why, all of a sudden are we getting reviews from people who can't even bother to come here? I've seen this name, Crazysugarfreakboy, a couple of times now, and another one, bleedingcool.com, that I keep seeing referenced. It's not like these are news sites or something. Or creators on other sites. Just dudes with opinions. And there's plenty of them around here.
 
Why, all of a sudden are we getting reviews from people who can't even bother to come here? I've seen this name, Crazysugarfreakboy, a couple of times now, and another one, bleedingcool.com, that I keep seeing referenced. It's not like these are news sites or something. Or creators on other sites. Just dudes with opinions. And there's plenty of them around here.

Aloha,
I'm going to PM you with my take on this. Suffice to say, there are those with an anti Spider-Man agenda.
Spidey rules
 
Aloha,
I'm going to PM you with my take on this. Suffice to say, there are those with an anti Spider-Man agenda.
Spidey rules

You talking about the loudest of the Anti-BND crowd or JJJ? ;)
 
Aloha,
I'm going to PM you with my take on this. Suffice to say, there are those with an anti Spider-Man agenda.
Spidey rules

I wouldn't necessarily say it's an "anti Spider-Man agenda" as it's more of an "anti One More Day/Brand New Day agenda" as one can certainly not like the current the direction the comics are taking and still be a fan of Spider-Man. And in the case of [blackout]Peter and Michelle's one-sided "relationship"[/blackout] I do think there is a rather unfortunate implications and subtexts involved with that particular subplot even if it was not the braintrust/webheads intention for doing so.

You talking about the loudest of the Anti-BND crowd or JJJ? ;)

:hehe:
 
Me likee the book... that's all that matters to me.

:yay:

Despite the extremely misogynistic sub-plot with Michelle? I'm usually not the guy to pull that card, but...Jesus it is completely appropriate in this case. :doh:
 
Despite the extremely misogynistic sub-plot with Michelle? I'm usually not the guy to pull that card, but...Jesus it is completely appropriate in this case. :doh:

This was, for the most part an interesting arc. It seemed to add to Chameleon both as a menace and how he feels about his target.

And though this Michelle thing started out with the whole drunken hookup (sorry, it was disscussed to death, but it was TOTALLY out of character!), the mistaken relationship that Chameleon caused for Pete did seem funny for a moment.

But, the problem is, as has been pointed out, it is all based on what is essentially rape. Chameleon had "relations" with Michelle under false pretenses. So the "joke" is on Michelle as well as Pete. And yeah, I'm a guy, and I can see that this sub-plot is underlying misogynistic.
 
I really enjoyed the book. Great artwork from Barry Kitson in this. The only real complaint I have is about the whole J. Jonah Jameson stuff. I liked the move in which he's become mayor. However, the whole "Spider-Man is a menace and I'm going to use peoples hard earned tax payer money to do what I did a million times before!" thing is just really running it's course. This is one case where I really wish the Spider-Man brain trust would take a page out of Ultimate Spider-Man and, I don't know, progress J. Jonah's character a little bit. He doesn't have to LIKE Spider-Man for christ sake but using the Spider Slayers for the hundredth time is rather bothersome to me.

That being said I really enjoyed it and the revelation at the end of the book was very awesome and I think that's helping to set up the Gauntlet storyline. I did like how Chameleon seems to really want to be "in character" when he takes over peoples lives. It's really a very sick, deeply rooted thing they have evolved the character into. He takes over these peoples lives, killing them in the process, and then tries to improve upon their lives when he poses as them. Very creepy. Very cool. I like the move they made with that.

And I don't really understand what all the fuss is about with this whole Michelle/Peter/Chameleon thing. I think that if you've read the book you can see that all Chameleon was doing was to do right by Peter. He could tell that Michelle liked Peter and, knowing that he dropped Peter Parker in acid and killed him, made love to her. Michelle thinks that it was Peter and, since Peter is Spider-Man and escaped the acid, it now leaves him in a very awkward position to keep being with Michelle or make her go into a fit. I think it's a very interesting plot thread and contributes to making what reading a Spider-Man comic is all about. Chameleon doesn't know Peter is Spider-Man and figured she just will never know what happened to Peter.

Though it does leave some questions. Chameleon is still out there and at large. What's going to happen when he realizes that Peter Parker is still alive?
 
SpideyInATree, the fuss is, despite what Chameleon said about "helping" Pete, I don't think he had that in mind when he had his way with her. He had her under false pretenses. It was Chameleon physically having sex with Michelle, not Pete. And it is being played as a laugh in which Michelle was duped into sex. I'm sure there must be more than a few women who would take issue with this.
 
I too dont see why everyone's all upset at the Chameleon/Michelle thing. Chameleon's a bad guy and he does mischievous things. So he tricked Michelle into having sex with her by pretending to be Peter, hows that crossing the line as opposed to dropping people in acid???
 
Well, like it was pointed out... the Chameleon is a bad guy, even with his "good" intentions, and that's what bad guys do... take advantage of situations...

Does the Michelle story seem a little forced... yes, at this point, but hopefully they can flesh out her character a bit more to make it even more interesting... it's not the first time we've read a "forced" storyline in comics, be them Marvel, DC or otherwise, nor will it be the last...

I thought it was a great arc, in spite of a few "flaws" that I saw... and after a bit of time, it seems like they're really getting a handle on the storytelling, which is just a bonus for all of us that are reading the book. :up:

:yay:
 
It's not that Chameleon did this. He is a bad guy. I get it, it makes sense.

It's the perception that it is being played for a joke. It's, oh boy, that Parker luck! Now look at the mess he's in!

It's fun and funny when Pete gets into messes. But it seems a little disturbing when you stop to think that this "funny misunderstanding" is based on what essentially is a rape. See what I mean?
 
I don't see it as a joke... obviously, it's something Peter will become aware because of the Chameleon's actions, and of course it will make things "messy" for Peter... leading a secretive double life will do that to anyone...

I guess we'll see how the writers handle it...
 
It'd be REALLY interesting if Michelle got pregnant...
 
Fred makes a valid point... and the Chameleon is a BAD GUY!!!!

Words fail me at the flimsy straws people keep trying to grasp at...

:huh: :huh: :huh:
 
SpideyInATree, the fuss is, despite what Chameleon said about "helping" Pete, I don't think he had that in mind when he had his way with her. He had her under false pretenses. It was Chameleon physically having sex with Michelle, not Pete. And it is being played as a laugh in which Michelle was duped into sex. I'm sure there must be more than a few women who would take issue with this.

Of course he nailed her under false pretenses...he's a VILLAIN! What did he do in the first five panels that we saw him in the arc? He dipped an innocent guy in acid. What did he try to do to Peter? Dip him in acid. I think a guy who is willing to dip people in acid and kill them is pretty much going to use his disguises as an advantage to get his little willy wet.

It's the perception that it is being played for a joke. It's, oh boy, that Parker luck! Now look at the mess he's in!

I don't know why people are looking at it as a joke, fans I am saying. I certainly didn't look at it as a joke. One of Spider-Man's oldest villains disguised as him and having sex with a person that is supposed to just be his roommate is a pretty serious thing. And, in the comic, I think Peter is taking it very serious too. The Parker luck thing is Harry having a key to his Aunt's house and now living in his old room. This Michelle thing I believe is going to be quite an ongoing thing from what we've seen.
 
:confused: :facepalm:Let me just say words fail me at this point.

Why do words fail you? Van Lente gave an answer to the question. It's not technically rape if Michelle believes that it's Peter. You think Peter is going to go, "Ok, Michelle...I'm Spider-Man. That guy who had sex with you in the kitchen wasn't me. It was one of my oldest and deadliest villains...THE CHAMELEON!" She is going to look at him and think he's ******ed and then lock the refrigerator up on him again.

If you want to think of it as rape, that's fine. It's your opinion. But people seem really surprised about something like that. I mean it's not like the actually Peter Parker character raped the girl. It was the Chameleon. The villain. You know...the bad guy...the one dipping innocent people in acid? Yeah.
 
Why do words fail you? Van Lente gave an answer to the question. It's not technically rape if Michelle believes that it's Peter. You think Peter is going to go, "Ok, Michelle...I'm Spider-Man. That guy who had sex with you in the kitchen wasn't me. It was one of my oldest and deadliest villains...THE CHAMELEON!" She is going to look at him and think he's ******ed and then lock the refrigerator up on him again.

If you want to think of it as rape, that's fine. It's your opinion. But people seem really surprised about something like that. I mean it's not like the actually Peter Parker character raped the girl. It was the Chameleon. The villain. You know...the bad guy...the one dipping innocent people in acid? Yeah.

Well, first of all, when it comes to rape, it's also a matter of informed consent not just force or coercion. Technically, had Michelle known that "Peter" was an impostor, she would not have given her consent. At the very least, it's sex by fraud. Granted, the question of whether or not it constitutes as rape is not as easy one, and yes there have in fact been court cases in which people have indeed committed sex by fraud and have been prosecuted for rape and/or sexual assault. There was a case in Michigan in which a person was convicted of felony sexual assault when he deliberately posed as a woman's fiancee in order to have sex with her. A similar case happened in Massachusetts, in which a woman had sex with her fiancee's twin brother when he pretended to be her fiancee and rape charges were filed against him. The case went all the way to the Massachusetts Supreme Court and was thrown out ONLY because the current wording of the sexual assault laws in Massachusetts stated that rape had to be exclusively sex by force (there's a move now to actually change the rape laws in that state because of that case). So, yes, while it depends on the state jurisdiction (and here are the http://www.nycagainstrape.org/survivors_legal.html]rape laws for the state of New York[/url] for example,) it's not unheard of and what the Chameleon did theoretically could indeed be prosecuted as rape, although it might be difficult under the law.

But I think what bothers me more is that regardless of whether or not what happened between Michelle and the Chameleon was rape, the entire situation is being played exclusively for laughs. The whole thing, if you notice, is being treated as a "typical Parker luck" scenario in how Peter is inconvenienced that, thanks to the Chameleon, he's been saddled with a moody, control-freak for a girlfriend that he no interest in having a relationship with, even though she was the victim of, by Van Lente's own addmission, a "horrible, evil, reprehensible" act.

As for what I believe Peter will say to her, well...talk to me in a few days. :cwink:
 
I really didn't need the whole legality of rape or whatever. If you want to believe it is, that's fine. I'm not going to get that into the whole law aspect of things over a comic book where the main character was bitten by a radioactive spider and can now cling to walls.

And who said it was for laughs? :huh: I didn't. Marvel didn't. Is Peter Parker ESP too? How is he supposed to know that Michelle slept with the Chameleon? He knows that he did after being drunk at his Aunt's wedding. For all he knows, so far, that Chameleon talked to her and started a relationship with her. Michelle didn't say. "Hey, you boinked me a a few days ago in the kitchen...lets boink again!" I'm pretty sure that when, and if, Peter finds out Chameleon did that he's going to take it pretty serious. The only person that can take it as a joke is yourself. If that's the way you are taking it, "As a 'Ha, ha...that's just the Parker luck'. Well, that's your fault. Not Marvel's. Not Peter's.

Chameleon is the bad guy. Bad guys do very bad things. It's supposed to make you loathe Chameleon and hope that Peter gets his hands on him again and makes him pay for what he's done.
 
Remember when Phoenix killed off an entire planet, and John Byrne made jokes about killing off the "broccoli-people?" Can you believe it???!?!?! That he would be so callous about a serious subject as genocide? Bastard!
 
^^^
Expect the difference there is that the scene where the Phoenix does kill off an entire planet was treated as a horrible act within the context of the story. By contrast, the situation involving the Chameleon and Michelle is intended to be comedic because of how it inconveniences Peter. Context is key, here.

I really didn't need the whole legality of rape or whatever. If you want to believe it is, that's fine. I'm not going to get that into the whole law aspect of things over a comic book where the main character was bitten by a radioactive spider and can now cling to walls.

Fair enough. But, considering that there's a call for having "realism" in comics, it's hard to so easily dismiss such "realism" by trying to essentially say it's all science fiction and fantasy, IMO.

And who said it was for laughs? :huh: I didn't. Marvel didn't. Is Peter Parker ESP too? How is he supposed to know that Michelle slept with the Chameleon? He knows that he did after being drunk at his Aunt's wedding. For all he knows, so far, that Chameleon talked to her and started a relationship with her. Michelle didn't say. "Hey, you boinked me a a few days ago in the kitchen...lets boink again!" I'm pretty sure that when, and if, Peter finds out Chameleon did that he's going to take it pretty serious. The only person that can take it as a joke is yourself. If that's the way you are taking it, "As a 'Ha, ha...that's just the Parker luck'. Well, that's your fault. Not Marvel's. Not Peter's.

Chameleon is the bad guy. Bad guys do very bad things. It's supposed to make you loathe Chameleon and hope that Peter gets his hands on him again and makes him pay for what he's done.
Well, let's look at the scenes again, first the one from issue #603 then issue #604:


qn4foy.jpg

amtzsp.jpg

1252642633557.jpg


Notice that the last panel DOES treat it as comedic, because it's all about "Oh no, Peter's roommate, Michelle, now thinks she's his girlfriend and she's an obsessive control freak who all but dragging him to the altar! Oh that Parker Luck!" What's more, the caption which Peter talks finding and killing the Chameleon is clearly intended to mean that Peter is mad at the Chameleon, not for taking advantage of the emotional state of his roommate, but for how the Chameleon has inconvenienced HIM by saddling him with a someone he had no interest of being in a romantic relationship with. Context is everything, and in the context of this, at least on Marvel's part, it's clearly intended to be a joke.

But at least we agree that it's not actually funny.
 
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