Comics Amazing Spider-Man #604 SPOILERS/Discussion

Oh my god. It is funny. There. I said it. I laughed when I read the issue. I didn't make the connection immediately upon reading it, and neither did any of you (which is why most people were saying "technically", it's rape, when this all started, because they were caught off guard too.) Label me misogynistic. Fine. But if we're going to go over every single word, and debate legal definitions for the next ten pages, please, just shoot me now.
 
Oh my god. It is funny. There. I said it. I laughed when I read the issue. I didn't make the connection immediately upon reading it, and neither did any of you (which is why most people were saying "technically", it's rape, when this all started, because they were caught off guard too.) Label me misogynistic. Fine. But if we're going to go over every single word, and debate legal definitions for the next ten pages, please, just shoot me now.

Well, you see, that's what's a little unsettling about the scene to me. Not that you found it funny or anyone else found it funny, mind you, but that it was the author's intention to depict it as humorous. And sure, on an initial reading and the way it's written and illustrated, I can understand why some would think it's funny. But then, you stop and think about it and go "Wait a minute..." Although, to be fair, I don't believe the writers or editors on the braintrust/webheads really gave it such serious thought or intended it to be nothing more than just a joke.
 
I actually like the ramifications (story-wise, before people start breaking out the torches and pitchforks.) of what I think was an "oooops" moment for the writers/editors. It could give the opportunity to flesh out Michelle's character more than the one-dimension that they've shown so far. And if Peter finds out about it, it puts his sense of responsibility in direct conflict with his secret id.
 
I think it's all good as well.... call me a rapist... :whatever: :whatever: :whatever:

:yay:
 
I dunno, call me dense but....I'm actually glad to see Peter finally getting some. Ever since BND started he's been portrayed as this young, immature loser that cant do anything right, but this new development kinda gives him an edge of maturity, in my opinion at least. Hey if he's not gonna be with MJ anymore they might as well have him to the whole 'bachelor' thing right? I'm not saying that every issue has to begin with Pete and Michelle in bed together, but its good to see Peter grow up a little bit.
 
All right, apparently, Van Lente has settled the matter yet AGAIN:

First off, while I believe he had the best of intentions, the poster "DrSevarius" wrote me under his real name and asked me a question I thought I was answering in private, to him. He posted my response without my permission and without telling me beforehand it was supposed to be for public consumption.

If he had told me that, I would have, first off, made it clear that I am not a Marvel employee. I am not a Marvel spokesperson. I am a freelancer. I speak only for myself. That is just as true for the following statement as the previous one.

Also, if he had told me that, I may have been less coy about the following "Spoiler Alert".
Anyone who cares not to have stuff that's in ASM #605 revealed now should avert their eyes.

Amazing Spider-Man #605, which went to the printer weeks ago, makes it clear that Michelle and Chameleon did nothing more than make out in the kitchen scene in #603.

There was no sex, and therefore no rape.

And I'll simply point out that in the scene in ASM #604 when Peter comes home he has no idea why, exactly, Michelle is treating him differently, only that she is. He learns why-- at least partly -- and he responds, in #605.

Thanks for listening. I appreciate it.

Best,
Fred Van Lente
http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/

So, with that, I'm feel a little bit better now and am glad Van Lente corrected things.

EDIT: Oh, and Rich Johnson has also weighed in on the matter: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2009/09/13/amazing-spider-man-and-the-rape-that-wasnt/
 
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I'm having a hard time believing that this is such an issue...

I'm glad the Internet didn't exist in the 70's... it would have put me off from comic book buying...

:csad:
 

Hyperventilating and jumping the gun aside, I'm sure the producers of Law and Order:SVU should be worried...

Which is another fair point. He is a murderer too. But somehow that doesn’t see to have the moral disgust that murder has and I can’t explain it. There is no midday TV show called Rape She Wrote nor a Dick Van Dyke vehicle called Diagnosis: Rape. Murder in fiction is entertainment, rape is not – or shouldn’t be.
 
And just for the record: Van Lente didn't "correct" things. He was forced through internet swooning to give details on a future issue, that he probably would rather not have, in order to stop a fan-manufactured "controversy."
 
I'm having a hard time believing that this is such an issue...

I'm glad the Internet didn't exist in the 70's... it would have put me off from comic book buying...

:csad:

And just for the record: Van Lente didn't "correct" things. He was forced through internet swooning to give details on a future issue, that he probably would rather not have, in order to stop a fan-manufactured "controversy."

The reason why the controversy existed in the first place is because, based on the way the story was presented itself, it gave the appearance that the Chameleon disguised as Peter had sex with Michelle, and thereby committing a possible sexual assault, and played the whole thing for laughs. If the writer can't make what happen clear in his own story and has to clarify things outside of his story, then the onus in on the WRITER not the FANS.

Also, if there was no sex involved, it certainly makes Michelle's behavior afterward even MORE over-the-top. You have her contemplating being "Mrs. Michelle Parker" in her notepad; wearing Peter's T-shirt and boxers; planning to buy him new clothes after tossing out his old ones; setting schedules for when he goes to bed, how long their "quality time" must be, and when they must have "snuggle time;" arranging a date to meet her parents--all from a make-out session on the kitchen floor where no sex took place? I mean, I've heard of people taking relationships too fast but DAMN!
 
The reason why the controversy existed in the first place is because, based on the way the story was presented itself, it gave the appearance that the Chameleon disguised as Peter had sex with Michelle, and thereby committing a possible sexual assault, and played the whole thing for laughs.

That was the gist of what I was saying. I was saying why the whole thing was inappropriate. And given what stillanerd said about Michelle's reaction, you can see why I (and apparently most of you) "jumped to conclusions."

On a similar note, I had given Pete (and the writers) the benefit of a doubt when we got the preview of Pete waking up with Michelle. I thought it was going to be a misunderstanding again played for a laugh. But, apparently in the next issue they confirmed they slept together, making the whole thing out of character for Pete (and no let's not argue about this again).

Anyway, given the explanation, (which apparently is a spoiler) I'm fine with it. So, I'll drop it.

I just can't believe how polarized we are as a Spidey community. I mean take this Michelle discussion. It's like the same posters that oppose OMD/BND saying that this is a case of technical rape used for a humorous effect and the same posters who are pro-BND jump in and saying the other side is taking it too serious. Sigh. You know, its ok sometimes for an anti-BND poster say something good about the stories and a pro-BND poster say something is bad or wrong in the stories.

Look, I'm trying to be fair. Do I hate OMD, the new BND status quo, and the end of the marriage? Yes, very much so! Have I stopped reading? No, I'm giving it a chance. Do I like the BND stories? Not many of the earlier ones, no, but I like the general direction lately.

What didn't I like (aside from no marriage)? All the supporting cast thrust on us like they were always long time friends. Freak. Menace. Jackpot. Overdrive (was it?). The Joyriding Internet Girl. MJ sleeping with that actor. Spider tracer murders. Spider burglar. Pete "reverting" to a total slacker (even though he wasn't ever one to "revert" to). Mrs. Kraven & kid. Drunken-hookups.

What did I like? Norah (who we're actually introduced to). Mr. Negative. Anti-Venom (although I don't like Gargen as Venom, but that was done a while ago). Norman being in charge of H.A.M.M.E.R. and the Dark Avengers. I'm ok with Harry's return, depending how they use him. Doc Ock. Although a bit contrived, JJJ as mayor. Aside from the mention "mix-up," Chameleon's story.

Sorry, I'm rambling again. :csad:
 
All right, apparently, Van Lente has settled the matter yet AGAIN:

http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/

So, with that, I'm feel a little bit better now and am glad Van Lente corrected things.

EDIT: Oh, and Rich Johnson has also weighed in on the matter: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2009/09/13/amazing-spider-man-and-the-rape-that-wasnt/

And once again, Fred Van Lente shows why comic book companies and writers, artists, etc will never take people on Internet message boards seriously. :woot:

The fact of the matter is, stillanerd, continuing the conversation we were having before this pulse pounding announcement...it was not meant to say, "Ha Ha, Chameleon falsely swooned Michelle and now Peter has to put up with it!". As, iloveclones said, it was a humorous situation in the fact that Peter had no idea about the situation and suddenly is confronted with Michelle wanting him to meet her parents and she told Vin about their impending relationship. The Chameleon once again doing something odd to his life, which he really didn't expect. That's what is humorous.

I seriously will not understand where you or other people were getting this notion that Fred Van Lente, or the editors of the book, were going, "Bwahahaha! Isn't it hilarious that Chameleon tricked Michelle into a sexual situation?! This is going to be comedy GOLD!". I really don't see where it comes out and says that. And I think, as Mr. Van Lente has proven now, that maybe it's a good idea to let a story develop before you jump the gun and throw around accusations.
 
As i said before, i too don't understand what all the fuss is about. Maybe its just me but i'm kinda happy peter's got a hot and horny roommate to romp with every now and then. At least SOMETHING in his life is going good and it could make for some interesting adult drama, something Spidey's books have been lacking for a while now.
 
I actually like the ramifications (story-wise, before people start breaking out the torches and pitchforks.) of what I think was an "oooops" moment for the writers/editors. It could give the opportunity to flesh out Michelle's character more than the one-dimension that they've shown so far. And if Peter finds out about it, it puts his sense of responsibility in direct conflict with his secret id.

But does it conflict with his secret identity, though? If I remember correctly, the only reason why Chamelion chose Peter was because he was close to the mayor as a photographer.

I dunno, call me dense but....I'm actually glad to see Peter finally getting some. Ever since BND started he's been portrayed as this young, immature loser that cant do anything right, but this new development kinda gives him an edge of maturity, in my opinion at least. Hey if he's not gonna be with MJ anymore they might as well have him to the whole 'bachelor' thing right? I'm not saying that every issue has to begin with Pete and Michelle in bed together, but its good to see Peter grow up a little bit.

He got black-out drunk and had more than likely unprotected sex with a woman he just barely met. That's actually about the exact opposite of maturity.
 
But does it conflict with his secret identity, though? If I remember correctly, the only reason why Chamelion chose Peter was because he was close to the mayor as a photographer.


It puts it in conflict, because he would have to explain away why it happened. Let's say this manufactured rape controversy actually happened, and play it through:

First off, Pete would have to find out it even happened. Which isn't a given. But let's say Michelle drops into conversation something about them being together the other night. At that point, pete realizes that Michelle has been raped. And he says to her, what? The guy you were with wasn't really me, but a master of disguise that was impersonating me. At which point MG hits him with a frying pan (turning the story into the rape-comedy that everyone was whining about). The question then becomes, how does Pete convince Michelle, and one of those ways would be to come clean about his secret id.

All in all a moot point, because it didn't happen!
 
^^^
He doesn't have to mention his secret identity. He can simply say the Chameleon kidnapped and impersonated him as part of a terrorist plot, which is not only true but was also completely unrelated to him being Spider-Man in the first place.

And once again, Fred Van Lente shows why comic book companies and writers, artists, etc will never take people on Internet message boards seriously. :woot:

The fact of the matter is, stillanerd, continuing the conversation we were having before this pulse pounding announcement...it was not meant to say, "Ha Ha, Chameleon falsely swooned Michelle and now Peter has to put up with it!". As, iloveclones said, it was a humorous situation in the fact that Peter had no idea about the situation and suddenly is confronted with Michelle wanting him to meet her parents and she told Vin about their impending relationship. The Chameleon once again doing something odd to his life, which he really didn't expect. That's what is humorous.

Yes, but that's partly why it carried with it such a troubling aspect since Peter is not the real victim in the case, regardless of whether Michelle had sex with the Chameleon or not, and it was treated as how HE was inconvenienced. After all, Peter may not know the specifics of what happened, but he certainly does know the Chameleon was involved and that whatever he did caused Michelle to fall head-over-heals in love with him and all but drag him to the altar.

I seriously will not understand where you or other people were getting this notion that Fred Van Lente, or the editors of the book, were going, "Bwahahaha! Isn't it hilarious that Chameleon tricked Michelle into a sexual situation?! This is going to be comedy GOLD!". I really don't see where it comes out and says that. And I think, as Mr. Van Lente has proven now, that maybe it's a good idea to let a story develop before you jump the gun and throw around accusations.
Because, based upon the subtext of the story, it WAS being played for laughs at Peter's expense because it was setting up how Peter was now saddled with a relationship with a woman he had no interest in pursuing, despite Michelle being the possible victim of a crime (and if you follow that thread I showed, one poster links to the Sexual Offenses in New York State Penal Law which suggest that, if Michelle and the Chameleon DID actually have sex, it could be third-degree rape).

Now Van Lente says that Michelle and the Chameleon never had sex but simply made out. Okay, fine. But the real sticking point is that all the indications, while not explicit, certainly give the reader the distinct impression that there was far more than making out going on between Michelle and the Chameleon disguised as Peter, especially in light of Michelle's behavior towards Peter afterward. Yes, she comes off as an obsessive, control freak who is moving their "relationship" way too fast, but it's at least plausible if the context is that she's behaving this way because she had sexual intercourse with whom she thought was Peter. But if there was no sexual intercourse involved, it makes her out to be juvenile and certifiable to say the least. Which means, we have either the unfortunate choice in thinking she was the unknowing victim of a possible sexual assault or that she's completely bat**** insane.

Either way, as a character, she certainly has been badly realized and is really nothing more than a walking plot device and stereotype than a legitimate member of the supporting cast.
 
^^^
He doesn't have to mention his secret identity. He can simply say the Chameleon kidnapped and impersonated him as part of a terrorist plot, which is not only true but was also completely unrelated to him being Spider-Man in the first place.


Of course he doesn't have to. And what you laid out would be a perfectly good resolution. But sometimes I think you guys forget that the goal is to get the characters into some kind of conflict. Not steer them around every problem, but push them right into the middle of it. I could go through Lee's entire run of Amazing, and think of dozens of ways for Pete to avoid the problems he encounters. But where's the fun in that?

This is why I've never understood the "Pete should have someone to come home to" mentality? Why? I don't (as a reader) want for it to be that easy on him. I want his life in turmoil.
 
Now Van Lente says that Michelle and the Chameleon never had sex but simply made out. Okay, fine. But the real sticking point is that all the indications, while not explicit, certainly give the reader the distinct impression that there was far more than making out going on between Michelle and the Chameleon disguised as Peter, especially in light of Michelle's behavior towards Peter afterward. Yes, she comes off as an obsessive, control freak who is moving their "relationship" way too fast, but it's at least plausible if the context is that she's behaving this way because she had sexual intercourse with whom she thought was Peter. But if there was no sexual intercourse involved, it makes her out to be juvenile and certifiable to say the least. Which means, we have either the unfortunate choice in thinking she was the unknowing victim of a possible sexual assault or that she's completely bat**** insane.

Either way, as a character, she certainly has been badly realized and is really nothing more than a walking plot device and stereotype than a legitimate member of the supporting cast.

See, Van Lente can't win. Reasonable explanation? Well, you should have been more clear. The truth is, I thought they had sex when I read it. Furthermore, I didn't get the implication of it until it was mentioned here. But, even before Van Lente clarified, I was willing to wait to see what happened next. Because it's serialized fiction. Mis-directing your audience (even if it's unintentional, as this was) is part of the bag of tricks.

And you're completely dismissing the fact that her encounter with Chameleon/Pete wasn't the first. This isn't the case of someone going gaga after one little peck on the cheek. The two of them were living together, slept together, and then fought about it. The reason they fought about it wasn't because Pete blurted out that he didn't remember, which obviously, Michelle did. Which means to me that it was more meaningful to her than Pete. Now, she's all ready to dump Pete out of the apartment, and Chameleon/Pete puts the moves on her. Which indicates to Michelle that maybe it meant more to him than he first indicated. So to her, Game On again. Her reaction, although a little over the top, is perfectly reasonable.

This is no different than any "romantic farce" except with a supervillain twist on it.
 
See, Van Lente can't win. Reasonable explanation? Well, you should have been more clear. The truth is, I thought they had sex when I read it. Furthermore, I didn't get the implication of it until it was mentioned here. But, even before Van Lente clarified, I was willing to wait to see what happened next. Because it's serialized fiction. Mis-directing your audience (even if it's unintentional, as this was) is part of the bag of tricks.

Well, IMO, Van Lente should have made it clear within the story that there was no sex between Michelle and the Chameleon rather rather then having to explain it, which to me is just bad storytelling. Also, even prior to this, Van Lente and Marvel let the whole thing continue to be seen that way until, after issue #604 came out, someone finally asked him about it (and remember his initial response was that, while he believed rape didn't take place, what the Chameleon did was a "horrible, evil, reprehensible" act before coming out AGAIN and saying there was "no sex, and therefore no rape." And given how Marvel's "all ages" comics usually don't actually show any characters doing the deed and even when they show two people naked in bed, the word sex isn't even mentioned, it certainly leaves enough room to think something happened. After all, a lot of people believe Peter and MJ had sex at the end of issue #149 and that Peter and Betty had a one-night stand in issue #189, even though there was no actual depictions of the acts themselves. So it's not hard to make such an assumption, especially when it's left intentionally vague (and it this case it certainly was more than suggestive).

And you're completely dismissing the fact that her encounter with Chameleon/Pete wasn't the first. This isn't the case of someone going gaga after one little peck on the cheek. The two of them were living together, slept together, and then fought about it. The reason they fought about it wasn't because Pete blurted out that he didn't remember, which obviously, Michelle did. Which means to me that it was more meaningful to her than Pete. Now, she's all ready to dump Pete out of the apartment, and Chameleon/Pete puts the moves on her. Which indicates to Michelle that maybe it meant more to him than he first indicated. So to her, Game On again. Her reaction, although a little over the top, is perfectly reasonable.

This is no different than any "romantic farce" except with a supervillain twist on it.

I was exclusively referring towards Michelle and Chameleon being on the kitchen floor, but yes, I do agree that, for the most part, Michelle's reaction towards Peter after their drunken hook-up was understandable, even though in that case there were also moments where she went over-the-top in that she said he was the reason there were "waiting periods for handguns" and that whole business with leaving out the cookies and padlocking the fridge as a form of revenge and another message she wanted him to leave the apartment. And I agree that, in light of what happened with the Chameleon, she would think that Peter would want their relationship to be more than a drunken one-night stand as it seemed to confirm he felt about her the same way she apparently did him.

HOWEVER, what I am saying is that if there was no sex between Michelle and the Chameleon, look at how she REACTS to what is apparently a mere "make-out session" where no sexual intercourse took place. She starts doodling "Michelle Parker" in her notepad; she greets Peter with a kiss and calls him sexy; she starts making demands like him being on time, how long they must have "quality time" together, what time they must go to bed and snuggle; she gives away all of his clothes to the goodwill and plans to take him shopping for new ones; and she arranges them to have a date to meet her parents.

See what I'm getting at? In one case--learning that Peter can't remember them having sex because he was blackout drunk--her reaction, while over-the-top, is at least plausible. In the other case--her believing she and Peter made out on the kitchen floor but didn't actually "go all the way"--she's all but ready to drag him to the altar. I realize that Mark Waid and Van Lente are trying to indicate that Michelle grows in infatuation for Peter based upon those two instances as part of a "romantic farce," but, ironically, if she and the Chameleon did actually have sex, her behavior towards Peter, while over-the-top, is, just like her behavior after the drunken hook-up, is plausible. But if no sex took place, then her behavior is just comes across as incredibly extreme.

Now don't get me wrong, I not saying that I prefer if Michelle and the Chameleon having sex, mind you, but I'm just saying, if read that if they did, it's more plausible although certainly very squicky. Not to mention, I'm starting to think that, while Van Lente is saying there was no sex, there's enough suggestiveness in the actual comic to suggest it could have easily been more than that.
 
Well, IMO, Van Lente should have made it clear within the story that there was no sex between Michelle and the Chameleon rather rather then having to explain it, which to me is just bad storytelling. Also, even prior to this, Van Lente and Marvel let the whole thing continue to be seen that way until, after issue #604 came out, someone finally asked him about it (and remember his initial response was that, while he believed rape didn't take place, what the Chameleon did was a "horrible, evil, reprehensible" act before coming out AGAIN and saying there was "no sex, and therefore no rape." And given how Marvel's "all ages" comics usually don't actually show any characters doing the deed and even when they show two people naked in bed, the word sex isn't even mentioned, it certainly leaves enough room to think something happened. After all, a lot of people believe Peter and MJ had sex at the end of issue #149 and that Peter and Betty had a one-night stand in issue #189, even though there was no actual depictions of the acts themselves. So it's not hard to make such an assumption, especially when it's left intentionally vague (and it this case it certainly was more than suggestive).

As was told by Van Lente himself, she makes the claim they didn't have sex in ASM #605, which was already off to the printer long before "fandom" got all uptight over nothing... so Marvel and Van Lente DID make it clear that they didn't have sex...

Bad storytelling? Or looking for a reason to flatten out your bunched up panties?

I was exclusively referring towards Michelle and Chameleon being on the kitchen floor, but yes, I do agree that, for the most part, Michelle's reaction towards Peter after their drunken hook-up was understandable, even though in that case there were also moments where she went over-the-top in that she said he was the reason there were "waiting periods for handguns" and that whole business with leaving out the cookies and padlocking the fridge as a form of revenge and another message she wanted him to leave the apartment. And I agree that, in light of what happened with the Chameleon, she would think that Peter would want their relationship to be more than a drunken one-night stand as it seemed to confirm he felt about her the same way she apparently did him.

HOWEVER, what I am saying is that if there was no sex between Michelle and the Chameleon, look at how she REACTS to what is apparently a mere "make-out session" where no sexual intercourse took place. She starts doodling "Michelle Parker" in her notepad; she greets Peter with a kiss and calls him sexy; she starts making demands like him being on time, how long they must have "quality time" together, what time they must go to bed and snuggle; she gives away all of his clothes to the goodwill and plans to take him shopping for new ones; and she arranges them to have a date to meet her parents.

See what I'm getting at? In one case--learning that Peter can't remember them having sex because he was blackout drunk--her reaction, while over-the-top, is at least plausible. In the other case--her believing she and Peter made out on the kitchen floor but didn't actually "go all the way"--she's all but ready to drag him to the altar. I realize that Mark Waid and Van Lente are trying to indicate that Michelle grows in infatuation for Peter based upon those two instances as part of a "romantic farce," but, ironically, if she and the Chameleon did actually have sex, her behavior towards Peter, while over-the-top, is, just like her behavior after the drunken hook-up, is plausible. But if no sex took place, then her behavior is just comes across as incredibly extreme.

I've known girls that have written Mrs. TMoB all over their bedroom walls for something LESS than a make-out session... so it all seems very plausible to me.

Maybe you should go out and meet more women... :cwink:

:yay:
 
I've known girls that have written Mrs. TMoB all over their bedroom walls for something LESS than a make-out session...


There's a joke in there somewhere. I'll be damned if I know what it is......
 
See, what I mean? Why is everyone so insulting?

Listen guys, we all "jumped" to the conclusion, which is why the technical rape was brought up. The writer says the next issue clears up they did not have sex.

So I'm fine with it and I'm "not looking for a reason to flatten out your bunched up panties."

As a matter of fact, I did give the writers the benefit of the doubt when Pete woke up next to Michelle, thinking he just passed out or stumbled into the wrong room and he didn't do something so stupid as to get so drunk and have (probably unsafe) sex with her. Of course, the following issue confirmed that did in fact happen.

So based on Pete & Michelle having the drunken hookup and Michelle's reaction to Pete when he got back, I thought it was reasonable that during that cutaway from Michelle's giggle (complete with little heart) that they had sex.

But again, it didn't happen, so I'm fine with it.

And yes, aside from the fact Michelle will get her feelings hurt, it is a humorous situation Pete finds himself in.
 
See, what I mean? Why is everyone so insulting?

Listen guys, we all "jumped" to the conclusion, which is why the technical rape was brought up. The writer says the next issue clears up they did not have sex.

So I'm fine with it and I'm "not looking for a reason to flatten out your bunched up panties."

As a matter of fact, I did give the writers the benefit of the doubt when Pete woke up next to Michelle, thinking he just passed out or stumbled into the wrong room and he didn't do something so stupid as to get so drunk and have (probably unsafe) sex with her. Of course, the following issue confirmed that did in fact happen.

So based on Pete & Michelle having the drunken hookup and Michelle's reaction to Pete when he got back, I thought it was reasonable that during that cutaway from Michelle's giggle (complete with little heart) that they had sex.

But again, it didn't happen, so I'm fine with it.

And yes, aside from the fact Michelle will get her feelings hurt, it is a humorous situation Pete finds himself in.

Haha... Spider-Gnome wears panties... :woot: :woot: :woot:

:cwink:
 

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