Comics Amazing Spider-Man #607 Spoilers/discussion

[Spider-Gnome]

And SG... what about those comments from Peter during the Gang War where he's always "complaining" that MJ is still in his apartment? I've heard people state that he's merely covering up "feelings", but it doesn't necessarily come across that way...

Just wondering what your thoughts were?

Hey, TMOB,

I'm sorry, I thought you had said you read my comments after a re-read The Gang War arc. It got buried in The Amazing Spider-Man v.2 thread while everyone was arguing about that poll.

Honestly, I don't recall him complaining about MJ being over all the time. The only complaining I saw was in a thought balloon about her decorating his apartment and not having a big spool of wire and Indian statue (callback to the 70's).

Anyway, to save you time from going over that thread, I'll reprint my thoughts here:

OK, I finally reread the issues of ASM you were kind enough to point out where you said Pete was mad at MJ for barging in on him and Black Cat after they were "making whoopie" (sorry, forgot the exact term you used ).

First of all, it was a fun read because it was the Gang War that lead to the Hobgoblin "reveal." Rodrick Kingsley was hardly in it, which is probably why I didn't really remember him when the "Hobgoblin Lives" mini came out. But I guess Marvel had already decided to go a different route since we got the Ned Leeds reveal immediately after. Gotta check out "Hobgoblin Lives" again.

Anyway, I read ASM #284-288. For the most part, he is with MJ. They even are suppose to have a date, but of course things never work out right. Black Cat doesn't even show up until #288. It is there that we get the scene you mentioned, which, as you said, was a mere 2 issues before the proposal (#290).

The scene has MJ coming over in the morning to make Pete breakfast in bed, only to find Felicia already in the kitchen. Cat is fully dressed. Pete is still in bed. While Cat & MJ get all "catty," Pete is "rescued" by a call from Aunt May, so he quickly gets his butt out of there. He is not mad, more just in the middle of things (much like the recent issue of ASM).

At Aunt May, he thinks about this scene and his thoughts are:"That scene at my apartment this morning was just too much! The Black Cat bulldozed her way into my place after her apartment was firebombed.* And, even though Mary Jane and I don't have a formal commitment I felt really skeevy when she walked in and found Felicia there! I have nothing to apologize for... or do I?" That's a direct quote from ASM #288, included what they bolded.

See, I read it differently. He's not mad at MJ. If anything, he says Cat "bulldozed" her way there (I'll get to the * in a minute). If anything, it seems like he is starting to realize that there might be something more between him and MJ.

The * was for PPTSSM #123. So, to be fair, I checked out Spectacular #123. Cat's apartment is bombed and they go to Pete's to regroup. MJ heads there to talk to Pete about their relationship, since she revealed she knows his id. She wants to resolve things and she thinks "Frankly, I know which way I'd like to resolve them. Finally." It is then that she and Cat are formally introduced. At the end of that issue, Pete again laments someone has died and again is feeling hopeless. Cat offers comfort, so that leads to the scene in ASM#288.

To be fair again, I skimmed ASM #289 (Hobgoblin reveal). No MJ and Cat appears on the second to last page. Pete decides he will remain Spider-Man (again) but his suit was trashed. Cat however has made him three extra suits (the black one, natch) and he's all happy. Cat says "Don't tell me, hotshot. Show me." Pete replies, "Oh, I'll show you all right." The next page is a splash with him in costume swinging around the city. So, I could give you that, too.

But, I'm more of a mind as stillanerd when he suggested that this was all a case of more Pete hiding from his true feelings more than everything else. Maybe you're right and they should have gone steady at that point. But given their relationship, a proposal wasn't totally out of the question.

I'll agree with you that they missed an opportunity by not having an engagement period.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[Themanofbat]

I did read it...

I just couldn't remember what you had said...

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I did read it...

I just couldn't remember what you had said...

Must be old age.

Or it didn't really make an impression with you.

 

[Themanofbat]

Old age...

 

[ragingdemon155]

I don't have a problem with Peter sleeping with Felicia. It was obvious they were doing it in the '80s in a 1940s Hollywood kind of way. Now it is more explicit. Whatever.

M y problem is this another example of bad writing. BC was actually quite interesting when she was first introduced as a semi-villain who falls in love with Spidey and they become partners. This is going back to BC after they wrote her out of the series as a girl who just wants to have one night stands with Peter (the same kind of writing that Peter did while semi-dating MJ about four issues prior to him PROPOSING MARRIAGE TO MJ). In fact they'll just recreate that scene where MJ comes to make Pete breakfast and finds Black Cat in his kitchen wearing his shirt. They're assuming fans have no memories or back issues and youngin's won't know any better.

Meanwhile all the great development Kevin Smith, Mark Miller and Dan Slott made with her this decade is out the window. She became the friend, the confidant. The most trusted person Peter could turn to for help who was extremely lonely because she was still hung up on Peter and wanted a serious relationship with him, but the boat has sailed and she is alone. And somewhat spiteful. Meanwhile MJ and Aunt May simply do not trust or like her, even when she saves Peter's life multiple times.

There was a great tension building here. Now she is a sex toy for Peter and his vicarious readers.

Weak.

That's exactly how I feel regarding this issue. Now I know it's rare for someone to utter the words "I'm a big fan of the Felica", but I am. I've always loved what she's brought to the title and her interactions have always been golden with Peter. Obviously their relationship was built on the whole sexual tension angle, however it grew way past that. All the development is wasted now because she's been reverted back and I hate that. There's nothing wrong with "reusing" plot points at one point or another. As a comic fan, I understand that it's all one huge cycle and essentially we'll get the same stories at times. There is something wrong with simply erasing character development. That's what's happened with the Spider/Black Cat relationship.

And once again, I hate being reminded of the fact that "no one" knows who he is. We know that already Marvel. Stop throwing it in our faces. We get that "People remember something happened, but don't know what".

 

[DACrowe]

Hey, TMOB,

I'm sorry, I thought you had said you read my comments after a re-read The Gang War arc. It got buried in The Amazing Spider-Man v.2 thread while everyone was arguing about that poll.

Honestly, I don't recall him complaining about MJ being over all the time. The only complaining I saw was in a thought balloon about her decorating his apartment and not having a big spool of wire and Indian statue (callback to the 70's).

Anyway, to save you time from going over that thread, I'll reprint my thoughts here:

OK, I finally reread the issues of ASM you were kind enough to point out where you said Pete was mad at MJ for barging in on him and Black Cat after they were "making whoopie" (sorry, forgot the exact term you used ).

First of all, it was a fun read because it was the Gang War that lead to the Hobgoblin "reveal." Rodrick Kingsley was hardly in it, which is probably why I didn't really remember him when the "Hobgoblin Lives" mini came out. But I guess Marvel had already decided to go a different route since we got the Ned Leeds reveal immediately after. Gotta check out "Hobgoblin Lives" again.

Anyway, I read ASM #284-288. For the most part, he is with MJ. They even are suppose to have a date, but of course things never work out right. Black Cat doesn't even show up until #288. It is there that we get the scene you mentioned, which, as you said, was a mere 2 issues before the proposal (#290).

The scene has MJ coming over in the morning to make Pete breakfast in bed, only to find Felicia already in the kitchen. Cat is fully dressed. Pete is still in bed. While Cat & MJ get all "catty," Pete is "rescued" by a call from Aunt May, so he quickly gets his butt out of there. He is not mad, more just in the middle of things (much like the recent issue of ASM).

At Aunt May, he thinks about this scene and his thoughts are:"That scene at my apartment this morning was just too much! The Black Cat bulldozed her way into my place after her apartment was firebombed.* And, even though Mary Jane and I don't have a formal commitment I felt really skeevy when she walked in and found Felicia there! I have nothing to apologize for... or do I?" That's a direct quote from ASM #288, included what they bolded.

See, I read it differently. He's not mad at MJ. If anything, he says Cat "bulldozed" her way there (I'll get to the * in a minute). If anything, it seems like he is starting to realize that there might be something more between him and MJ.

The * was for PPTSSM #123. So, to be fair, I checked out Spectacular #123. Cat's apartment is bombed and they go to Pete's to regroup. MJ heads there to talk to Pete about their relationship, since she revealed she knows his id. She wants to resolve things and she thinks "Frankly, I know which way I'd like to resolve them. Finally." It is then that she and Cat are formally introduced. At the end of that issue, Pete again laments someone has died and again is feeling hopeless. Cat offers comfort, so that leads to the scene in ASM#288.

To be fair again, I skimmed ASM #289 (Hobgoblin reveal). No MJ and Cat appears on the second to last page. Pete decides he will remain Spider-Man (again) but his suit was trashed. Cat however has made him three extra suits (the black one, natch) and he's all happy. Cat says "Don't tell me, hotshot. Show me." Pete replies, "Oh, I'll show you all right." The next page is a splash with him in costume swinging around the city. So, I could give you that, too.

But, I'm more of a mind as stillanerd when he suggested that this was all a case of more Pete hiding from his true feelings more than everything else. Maybe you're right and they should have gone steady at that point. But given their relationship, a proposal wasn't totally out of the question.

I'll agree with you that they missed an opportunity by not having an engagement period.

Sorry for the long post.

Yeah, I bought those back issues a few years ago and they were a great read. You had Spidey, Daredevil, Kingpin, the Rose reveal and Hobgoblin's original reveal. Plus a decent story and BC/MJ trouble in Peter's life, with Betty also going off the deep-end. It was a very fun story.

I don't have the issues with me now, but I distinctly remember BC in Peter's apartment with no pants on just a shirt, it may have been her shirt, but it gave credence that if you *read between the lines* given Marvel was more considerate of child readers then, that the message was clear. Especially at the end of that story line when BC gives Peter the black costumes she sewed for him while still in a bathrobe he picks her up and says, "After I show you how glad I am...I'll show the whole world."

Or something to that extent. That was code for booty-call.

 

[DACrowe]

That's exactly how I feel regarding this issue. Now I know it's rare for someone to utter the words "I'm a big fan of the Felica", but I am. I've always loved what she's brought to the title and her interactions have always been golden with Peter. Obviously their relationship was built on the whole sexual tension angle, however it grew way past that. All the development is wasted now because she's been reverted back and I hate that. There's nothing wrong with "reusing" plot points at one point or another. As a comic fan, I understand that it's all one huge cycle and essentially we'll get the same stories at times. There is something wrong with simply erasing character development. That's what's happened with the Spider/Black Cat relationship.

And once again, I hate being reminded of the fact that "no one" knows who he is. We know that already Marvel. Stop throwing it in our faces. We get that "People remember something happened, but don't know what".

Very much agreed.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Yeah, I bought those back issues a few years ago and they were a great read. You had Spidey, Daredevil, Kingpin, the Rose reveal and Hobgoblin's original reveal. Plus a decent story and BC/MJ trouble in Peter's life, with Betty also going off the deep-end. It was a very fun story.

I don't have the issues with me now, but I distinctly remember BC in Peter's apartment with no pants on just a shirt, it may have been her shirt, but it gave credence that if you *read between the lines* given Marvel was more considerate of child readers then, that the message was clear. Especially at the end of that story line when BC gives Peter the black costumes she sewed for him while still in a bathrobe he picks her up and says, "After I show you how glad I am...I'll show the whole world."

Or something to that extent. That was code for booty-call.

No, you misremembered (I just reread those issues). At the time Black Cat was not wearing her traditional garb. Her costume was a white leotard, black (80's) jacket, mask, & hair in a pony tail. That is exactly what we was wearing when MJ came over (minus the mask). Felicia did spend the night, conning herself over after her apartment was fire bombed.

Of course, you make me feel old, as I bought those issues when they first came out.

 

[JayTee]

"Great development" my backside. Kevin smith had Black Cat raped.

First off, changing origins for characters is always stupid. Secondly, someone's gonna go off about how "powerful" a topic rape is in a comic book story. Go soak your head. It's Spider-Man for crying out loud. You're sick if you think rape belongs in his world.

Here's a nice idea. Let's have Spider-Man raped. See how "powerful" and "touching" it is then. Jerks.

 

[mre]

Thats a cue for someone to post that PSA on child abuse featuring young Peter Parker and Uncle Ben.

 

[ragingdemon155]

"Great development" my backside. Kevin smith had Black Cat raped.

First off, changing origins for characters is always stupid. Secondly, someone's gonna go off about how "powerful" a topic rape is in a comic book story. Go soak your head. It's Spider-Man for crying out loud. You're sick if you think rape belongs in his world.

Here's a nice idea. Let's have Spider-Man raped. See how "powerful" and "touching" it is then. Jerks.

Anyway....I thought Kevin Smith did a great job with the character of BC as well as her relationship with Peter. The last conversation they have in the title is very well down and shows some of that maturity the two of them share. This is coming from someone who can't stand Kevin Smith.

I was on the fence about the topic of rape being used in a Spider-man story. Do I have a problem with "rape"? Of course. You could argue that it's the most traumatizing experience a woman can experience. However, as long as a comic presents a topic in a mature manner, then I feel that it can cover all ground. I guess I'm sick.

 

[DACrowe]

I had thought it was an excellent story, especially due to it getting into BC's head as more than a sex object, the first time a writer had done that since MJ and Peter tied the knot from what I could tell. It paved the way for them to become close friends and confidants again. I thought it opened the door for Mark Millar to use her really interestingly as Peter's unofficial back-up in sticky situations and her saving his life and then after she gets hospitalized Peter realizing just how alone she really is as he is the only friend she has to visit her. And contrast that with BC and MJ fighting there and BC trying to help in the Civil War mess and Aunt May and MJ gossiping hate for her...it was just an interesting situation that while I liked the marriage a lot it was only BC, a former lover in costume, that Peter could really connect with in that lifestyle, especially after going rogue, as Dan Slott used her.

Now she's his **** buddy again.

 

[iloveclones]

I find it hard to believe that anybody gets sucked into this notion that Mark Millar or Kevin Smith made any character interesting. Ever. These guys are one-trick ponies...basically, the shock jocks of comics. You take the killing of Karen Page out of DD, and no-one would ever even remember that run. He didn't do anything different with Black Cat. Can't make her interesting through good stories? Let's do it the easy way: have her be raped(or not, it took so long, I don't even remember what happened....or care for that matter), that'll make things interesting.

 

[mre]

iloveclones...... I think MM did make some characters, if at least smarter than average writers, interesting. I really enjoyed MM's run with MKSM. Not as good as KS, but I think he deserves some credit for doing something else that was interesting with BC. I mean... she was just a sex object.

 

[X Knight]

why do I have the feeling that Marvel will find some excuse to "retcon" these current stories and go back to the status quo before BND.

Indeed, it almost feels like Peter's current "irresponsible" behavior is part of the devil's deal, like it's turning him into something that he's not and he's losing his moral compass.

So, at the end of the day ( and probably just in time for Spider-man 4 ), Marvel will "restore" the status quo and give us old Peter back.....

Cuz......I really find it hard to believe that Marvel is taking their flagship character, whose supposed to be a good role model for kids, and making him behave the way he has in these last few issues. Especially now that Disney owns Marvel......

 

[moraldeficiency]

While I'm not the biggest Millar or Smith fan they have done some good stuff. I thought the rape aspect (back when she was much younger) made sense given the cat's adversion to any person not in a mask. It really didn't seem forced. Millar's is a bit of a shock jock but he's done some good stories too.

I like big shocking stuff, if it make sense (bendisss!!!). So they can be hit or miss, but I like a surprise or two and if it fits I'm cool with running with it.

 

[iloveclones]

Believe me, I've liked stuff from both of them (and Bendis too). I love big splashy knock-all-the-toys-over stories. But when people talk about "lazy writing" ( a way too overused and misused phrase), that's what I think of. No character or plot development. Just throw a big bowling ball and watch us pick up the pieces.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I get what you're saying but I thought the aspect of BC being raped made sense considering her character as it was introduced. She only like supers, no normal men, and when she felt betrayed by Pete she went to kill him. Kinda crazy behavior unless you had some trauma like that. It just fit in my mind so I didn't feel that was lazy but actually quite inspired. Made her seem less like a semipsychotic ***** and more like a character.

That series was horribly late, I'm glad I waited for the trade.

 

[JerseyJoker]

Haven't been around to talk about the comics in a while.

Been busy, so i just recently managed to catch up with everything with the last arch and now the beginning of the return of Ben and Kaine.

Great stuff, the story was pretty ordinary to start off, which isn't a bad thing, a few hints here and there, but mostly a bit of mystery, with some great jokes and great art. Forgot off the top of my head who did the art for the comic, but i love the look of Spidey.

 

[mre]

Haven't been around to talk about the comics in a while.

Been busy, so i just recently managed to catch up with everything with the last arch and now the beginning of the return of Ben and Kaine.

Great stuff, the story was pretty ordinary to start off, which isn't a bad thing, a few hints here and there, but mostly a bit of mystery, with some great jokes and great art. Forgot off the top of my head who did the art for the comic, but i love the look of Spidey.

I agree, I really thought the art was great, and I am loving the story so far.