Another Person Shot While Looking for Help

[Motown Marvel]

There are legal standards that define self defense, and based on the information we have thus far, self defense will not be an applicable defense in court. If there were signs of her attempting to force entry, maybe. But there seems to be no indication of her attempting a forced entry or any indication that she was putting the mans life at risk or intending him great bodily harm. My point is, gun owners do not get to define self defense and when it is or isn't necessary.

 

[charl_huntress]

My point is you do. I have the right to own a gun for protection which means I can use if I feel I need it. However, that doesn't mean if I make a mistake and use it when I shouldn't have used it that I should not pay for that.

 

[Motown Marvel]

But if what you feel is a necessity to use it doesn't jive with the legal standards of acceptable use of it, then you need to face the consequences. And so far, with the info we have, it would seem the mans actions do not jive with the legal standards to claim self defense.

 

[charl_huntress]

That's why I mention gun responsibility. You need to know when to use and know when not to, but you have the right to use it. So this case will hopefully bring up more talk about this. Don't get me wrong. I want more conversations on gun responsibility. We as gun owners need to have discussions about this. It's makes us more responsible gun owners.

 

[Motown Marvel]

You have the right to use it as dictated by the standards of law.

 

[charl_huntress]

That is correct. But a gun is like a car.... You can do whatever the **** you want with it. More talk is needed about proper gun responsibility instead of ownership or rights. People have the right to have a gun, but they don't have the right to shoot whoever the **** they want at anytime. As a gun owner, I want more discussion on when it's right, when you think it is right, why it is right, and why that makes a difference. This is what I want because I don't want to be blamed for shooting someone when I thought I had the right to do so. That's also why I mention property rights.

This woman was on this man's home front porch. If he asked her to leave and she didn't for whatever reason....should I shoot her is not the same as if I have the right to shoot her.

That's why I also mentioned property rights.

 

[Asgard]

This woman was on this man's home front porch. If he asked her to leave and she didn't for whatever reason....should I shoot her is not the same as if I have the right to shoot her.

That's why I also mentioned property rights.

Wait, do you think he has the right to shoot her if she didnt leave his porch when told to? I dont think thats legal in the eyes of the law. I think she'd have to be inside of his home for him to have any right to shoot her.

 

[charl_huntress]

She is on his property "refusing" to leave (I added that). She is drunk and agitated (I added that agitated part, but she was drunk).

Now, this man had no right to shoot HER. She was unarmed and a 64 in. women. He could have handled that with no gun, but what if it was a MAN who was 7 feet and 300 lbs. I think about stuff like this because it's relevant.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Surprise, America, this is what you've created. A young woman's life ends because we prize guns over logic. And not far behind, the old, steady demons of drugs and alcohol make another appearance. We just can't exist without bullets and booze.

Wafer should spend the maximum of time allowed by law in jail. No other outcome would be just.

 

[charl_huntress]

Guns over logic??? If someone has a gun and is about to use it then logic is out the door. Scar, you just don't like guns. I get that, but this woman was obviously not logical in the first place because at 19 she was drinking and driving. Let's count the ways.

19 - not even legal to drink
DUI - illegal
Looking for help - in fact fleeing the scene of her own crime
.218 - medically not in her right mind.

Yet the one with the gun is without logic because he had some cause to be scared of this person?

Y'all make me hope he gets off just because, but I'm not like that. I do hope he gets a fair trail and if he is found guilty of a crime then he should go to jail.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Guns over logic??? If someone has a gun and is about to use it then logic is out the door. Scar, you just don't like guns. I get that, but this woman was obviously not logical in the first place because at 19 she was drinking and driving. Let's count the ways.

19 - not even legal to drink
DUI - illegal
Looking for help - in fact fleeing the scene of her own crime
.218 - medically not in her right mind.

Yet the one with the gun is without logic?

Yes, very much so. If he had acted with any rational thinking, McBride would have been a hospital within the hour, getting treatment for any possible injures and her polysubstance problem. Instead, he acted like a troglodyte and she paid with her life. Lock that monster up.

 

[charl_huntress]

Troglodyte? Just because he was scared and woken up by some unknown person knocking on his door at 4am and got a gun? For that he is a troglodyte? smh...I would have wanted this situation to end differently too, but you can't reject someone's right to be afraid of something because they are. Is it a rational fear is not really the question for me. Everyone has the damn right to be afraid of something and everyone IS afraid of something. That does not make them a damn troglodyte. Jeeze...

 

[Paladin-Hoss]

It is reasonable to get spooked by someone knocking/banging at your door in the middle of the night. It's what he did afterward that makes me agree with Scar that the man acted like a Troglodyte.

Was looking through a window or whatever first was not an option? or calling the cops? how about get your gun if that makes you feel safer, but stay inside the house, making sure all the doors are locked...

The police report said that the girl was shot in the face-not in the back of the head. She was shot right in front of the face, near the mouth.

While it was originally reported that Ms McBride was shot in the back of the head - Lieutenant Serwatowski says that's not true.

He said: 'The girl was not shot in the back of the head while leaving the porch. I don't know where the family is getting this. She was shot in the front of the face, near the mouth

So that would mean that he was pointing his shotgun at her face.The girl was around five feet tall, and had visible injuries...there goes his defense of being affraid for his life.

There's also an article where his ex wife said that while the man is not a racist, he 's had a drinking problem and a bad temper.

If that's true, what most likely happened is a case of 'gonna show whoever that is they're messing with the wrong house! *grabbed shotgun*'

So... like Scar said...a troglodyte

 

[charl_huntress]

She had .218 alcohol level and keep in mind this was 3 hours after she had the accident, so she was visibly injured AND DRUNK. I probably would have kept my gun on her too if it were me. However, I would NOT have had my finger on the trigger until I was ready to shoot because I have had gun training, whereas most people do not.

 

[BestGirl]

She is on his property "refusing" to leave (I added that). She is drunk and agitated (I added that agitated part, but she was drunk).

Now, this man had no right to shoot HER. She was unarmed and a 64 in. women. He could have handled that with no gun, but what if it was a MAN who was 7 feet and 300 lbs. I think about stuff like this because it's relevant.

If it were a 7-foot tall man on your property refusing to leave, you still wouldn't be entitled to shoot. lock your door, call the cops, and only shoot if he actually enters your house.

She had .218 alcohol level and keep in mind this was 3 hours after she had the accident, so she was visibly injured AND DRUNK. I probably would have kept my gun on her too if it were me. However, I would NOT have had my finger on the trigger until I was ready to shoot because I have had gun training, whereas most people do not.

Better yet, instead of pointing a gun at the person knocking at your door, how about talking to him/her through a window if you're so afraid?

 

[Paladin-Hoss]

She had .218 alcohol level and keep in mind this was 3 hours after she had the accident, so she was visibly injured AND DRUNK. I probably would have kept my gun on her too if it were me. However, I would NOT have had my finger on the trigger until I was ready to shoot because I have had gun training, whereas most people do not.

And therein lies the problem, Charl

 

[Hotwire]

Charl has me on ignore so, could someone please share this so she can see what the law says about deadly force?

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(4e...eg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-780-951

 

[Spider-Who?]

Charl has me on ignore so, could someone please share this so she can see what the law says about deadly force?

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(4e...eg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-780-951

Not entirely sure this helps you, as it states use of deadly force is applicable if someone is trying or succeeds in breaking into your own or hurt you. It also is applicable if you have an honest and reasonable belief of either.

This guy wakes up at 4am to hear someone banging on his doors. That's a pretty fricking reasonable belief of someone trying to break in. Grabbing his gun to protect himself is covered here, and opens up the chance to argue for lawful self defense.

Where the case for self defense will stick or fail is the moment he opened the door (if he doesn't argue for the accidental firing). Did they speak to one another? Did she act in a manner that he reasonably took as threatening? How much time passed between him opening the door and the weapon being fired? Did he know she was on the porch when he opened the door? Where there porch or street lights on which would have allowed him to adequately see her and determine her condition?

These are all things we don't currently know, and infuriatingly, are also the things that NEED to be known to determine level of guilt. IMO, if there answers to these questions help prove his case, it will only save him from the 2nd degree charge. Manslaughter is the most likely verdict, and barring any evidence that proves he knowingly shot a defenseless girl looking for help, is the verdit I think is most appropriate.

 

[Hotwire]

Not entirely sure this helps you, as it states use of deadly force is applicable if someone is trying or succeeds in breaking into your own or hurt you. It also is applicable if you have an honest and reasonable belief of either.

This guy wakes up at 4am to hear someone banging on his doors. That's a pretty fricking reasonable belief of someone trying to break in. Grabbing his gun to protect himself is covered here, and opens up the chance to argue for lawful self defense.

Where the case for self defense will stick or fail is the moment he opened the door (if he doesn't argue for the accidental firing). Did they speak to one another? Did she act in a manner that he reasonably took as threatening? How much time passed between him opening the door and the weapon being fired? Did he know she was on the porch when he opened the door? Where there porch or street lights on which would have allowed him to adequately see her and determine her condition?

These are all things we don't currently know, and infuriatingly, are also the things that NEED to be known to determine level of guilt. IMO, if there answers to these questions help prove his case, it will only save him from the 2nd degree charge. Manslaughter is the most likely verdict, and barring any evidence that proves he knowingly shot a defenseless girl looking for help, is the verdict I think is most appropriate.

My point was more that it would be very hard to argue that you felt threatened and yet, you still opened the door. The fact that he opened the door is the weak link in his defense. If you're scared for your life, you don't make it easier for the perceived attacker to get to you. Even Charl listed the things she would do if she were the homeowner and her list did not include opening the door.

Now, if his intent was that he just wanted to scare the person off and accidentally shot her, that he may be able to work with. But, I'm not buying that he was scared for his life and shot her in self-defense.

 

[BestGirl]

Not entirely sure this helps you, as it states use of deadly force is applicable if someone is trying or succeeds in breaking into your own or hurt you. It also is applicable if you have an honest and reasonable belief of either.

This guy wakes up at 4am to hear someone banging on his doors. That's a pretty fricking reasonable belief of someone trying to break in. Grabbing his gun to protect himself is covered here, and opens up the chance to argue for lawful self defense.

Why on earth would a banging on your front door make you think someone was trying to break in? Someone who is trying to burglarize your house at night isn't going to make that much noise, and would probably enter through a window anyway.

Where the case for self defense will stick or fail is the moment he opened the door (if he doesn't argue for the accidental firing). Did they speak to one another? Did she act in a manner that he reasonably took as threatening? How much time passed between him opening the door and the weapon being fired? Did he know she was on the porch when he opened the door? Where there porch or street lights on which would have allowed him to adequately see her and determine her condition?

These are all things we don't currently know, and infuriatingly, are also the things that NEED to be known to determine level of guilt. IMO, if there answers to these questions help prove his case, it will only save him from the 2nd degree charge. Manslaughter is the most likely verdict, and barring any evidence that proves he knowingly shot a defenseless girl looking for help, is the verdit I think is most appropriate.

I really don't see how she could've acted in a way he could perceive as threatening. She was looking for help, so it's not like she would've been cussing him out or threatening him. If she tried to barge in, he should've just pushed her back out the door.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Why on earth would a banging on your front door make you think someone was trying to break in? Someone who is trying to burglarize your house at night isn't going to make that much noise, and would probably enter through a window anyway.

He claims he heard sounds of someone going from door to door trying to force her way into the home. Criminals will do what it takes to try and get into a home; whether its busting out a window, kicking in a door, forcing open a garage door...all of which make a substantial amount of noise. Some criminals even pose as police or someone needing help in order to gain access to a home.

Fact is, she, a drunk stranger, was trying to gain entry into another stranger's home in the middle of the night. Nothing about that screams puppy dogs and sunshine to a person waking up to that.

I really don't see how she could've acted in a way he could perceive as threatening. She was looking for help, so it's not like she would've been cussing him out or threatening him. If she tried to barge in, he should've just pushed her back out the door.

We weren't there experiencing the situation ourselves, so one of US not being able to "see how she could have acted" holds no weight in the discussion. Also, the "he/she should of done" is a waste of breath as well - they BOTH made a lot of mistakes in this situation, if any number of those had been done differently, we wouldn't be here.

But let's get something straight: She was not "looking for help". She had help. There was someone with her at the scene of the accident. She left that help behind. Why? Because she was overwhelmingly drunk and underage: had she stayed there and waiting for the cops (who, based on their response time to the shooter's 911 call, where only minutes away), she would have been arrested for underage drinking, drunk driving, and wrecking her car as a result of driving well above the legal limit. All of that being said, she was probably extremely panicked (exacerbated by being drunk) and with her nerves shot, frustrated, hurting, etc...all that adds up to a person NOT acting in a way that begs confidence in the decency of humanity, especially when the person being woken up faces that type of mentality having NO CLUE of the reasoning.

She didn't deserve to die and the shooter doesn't deserve to go free, but let's not paint him as a monster who shot a sweet little angel in the face simply because she politely knocked on his door. The truth is far more complicated than that.

 

[charl_huntress]

Better yet, instead of pointing a gun at the person knocking at your door, how about talking to him/her through a window if you're so afraid?

Have any of you ever seen a drunk person with that sort of alcohol level? Have ANY of you? I know Motown has, but the rest of you? I was drunk at that level myself once and in a complete blacked out state. I WAS NOT in my right mind. I know this because I don't remember **** I did. But let me tell you, when I woke in the morning I was in the restricted barracks because I had been picked up by shore patrol for fighting some random person over God knows what. I still to this day don't even know what it was about...lol

How in the hell can anyone have a rational conversation with a person in that state of mind, when I am also not in a rational state of mind due to being scared. I just don't get this why don't you talk it out crap. I just don't get it.

Have any you heard the adage let sleeping dogs lie? Is not just an expression. It is REAL talk! Don't believe me go and touch a sleeping dog that is not your dog. Just do it and find out. You will get bite. It is a NATURAL response to be fearful if you are woken up by something that startled you awake.

If it were a 7-foot tall man on your property refusing to leave, you still wouldn't be entitled to shoot. lock your

door, call the cops, and only shoot if he actually enters your house.

Okay, so I HAVE A GUN IN MY HAND AND I'M ASKING THEM TO LEAVE AND THEY WILL NOT. WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT THAT PERSON WHO WILL NOT LEAVE MY PROPERTY WHEN I AM ASKING AND HOLDING A G-D FRIGGIN GUN!!!!!!!!!
Plus, this dude is 7ft and 300 lbs, but you STILL want me, a woman who is 63in and 135 lbs, to wait for him to break in???? Good Lord!

Sorry about the caps. I know that's out there and wasn't trying to be rude, but I want that to be clear.

And therein lies the problem, Charl

See above.

Charl has me on ignore so, could someone please share this so she can see what the law says about deadly force?

[URL]http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%284ezztz3pmtssveq22khmxk55%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-780-951[/URL]

I will read this and take you off ignore so we can chat again, but please don't tell me you pity me. I really don't want to even talk to someone who pities me. But I think we just both got a little heated, and since you don't know me then recognize I don't even need your pity. Okay, we can be friends again. I'm going to read what you posted.

My point was more that it would be very hard to argue that you felt threatened and yet, you still opened the door. The fact that he opened the door is the weak link in his defense. If you're scared for your life, you don't make it easier for the perceived attacker to get to you. Even Charl listed the things she would do if she were the homeowner and her list did not include opening the door.

Now, if his intent was that he just wanted to scare the person off and accidentally shot her, that he may be able to work with. But, I'm not buying that he was scared for his life and shot her in self-defense.

I wouldn't open the door, but then again I told you I would if I thought my dog or someone I knew was hurt because then I would not be thinking rationally. I would make a bad choice and open that door.

See my thing is what if he was trying to determine if it was a real threat, or he thought he just heard a noise. What kind of lighting he had on his porch will also be key because if he couldn't really see her then maybe he thought it was just a cat. Then opened the door to see. It's hard to say and we're speculating of course. But my point was he had the gun in the first place because he was awaken by a noise that he thought was someone trying to break in. So he was already alert to someone he thought might being trying to intrude.

 

[BestGirl]

He claims he heard sounds of someone going from door to door trying to force her way into the home. Criminals will do what it takes to try and get into a home; whether its busting out a window, kicking in a door, forcing open a garage door...all of which make a substantial amount of noise. Some criminals even pose as police or someone needing help in order to gain access to a home.

Fact is, she, a drunk stranger, was trying to gain entry into another stranger's home in the middle of the night. Nothing about that screams puppy dogs and sunshine to a person waking up to that.

Except that he didn't hear someone trying to break into his home. Nor was she trying to gain entry. She was looking for help. He heard someone banging loudly on the front door and opened it to see who it was. If he had truly believed she was a burglar, he wouldn't've opened his door to her.



We weren't there experiencing the situation ourselves, so one of US not being able to "see how she could have acted" holds no weight in the discussion. Also, the "he/she should of done" is a waste of breath as well - they BOTH made a lot of mistakes in this situation, if any number of those had been done differently, we wouldn't be here.

But let's get something straight: She was not "looking for help". She had help. There was someone with her at the scene of the accident. She left that help behind. Why? Because she was overwhelmingly drunk and underage: had she stayed there and waiting for the cops (who, based on their response time to the shooter's 911 call, where only minutes away), she would have been arrested for underage drinking, drunk driving, and wrecking her car as a result of driving well above the legal limit. All of that being said, she was probably extremely panicked (exacerbated by being drunk) and with her nerves shot, frustrated, hurting, etc...all that adds up to a person NOT acting in a way that begs confidence in the decency of humanity, especially when the person being woken up faces that type of mentality having NO CLUE of the reasoning.

She didn't deserve to die and the shooter doesn't deserve to go free, but let's not paint him as a monster who shot a sweet little angel in the face simply because she politely knocked on his door. The truth is far more complicated than that.

She'd had help a few hours earlier before she stumbled away from the crash, probably in a blind panic. Later, she went looking for more help. I'm really not sure why you seem to think this excuses her being shot in any way.

I'm not painting her as an angel, either. You don't need to be an angel in order to not deserve getting shot in the face. I'm not saying he's a monster, either. He used his gun irresponsibly and deserves to be punished for it. That's all.

Have any of you ever seen a drunk person with that sort of alcohol level? Have ANY of you? I know Motown has, but the rest of you? I was drunk at that level myself once and in a complete blacked out state. I WAS NOT in my right mind. I know this because I don't remember **** I did. But let me tell you, when I woke in the morning I was in the restricted barracks because I had been picked up by shore patrol for fighting some random person over God knows what. I still to this day don't even know what it was about...lol

How in the hell can anyone have a rational conversation with a person in that state of mind, when I am also not in a rational state of mind due to being scared. I just don't get this why don't you talk it out crap. I just don't get it.

Have any you heard the adage let sleeping dogs lie? Is not just an expression. It is REAL talk! Don't believe me go and touch a sleeping dog that is not your dog. Just do it and find out. You will get bite. It is a NATURAL response to be fearful if you are woken up by something that startled you awake.

I'm not saying he should've reasoned with her. I'm saying that, if he were truly as nervous as he claimed to be, he shouldn't've opened the door to her. He should've attempted to communicate with her through a window, and once it was clear that she wasn't in her right mind he should've called the police.

Okay, so I HAVE A GUN IN MY HAND AND I'M ASKING THEM TO LEAVE AND THEY WILL NOT. WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT THAT PERSON WHO WILL NOT LEAVE MY PROPERTY WHEN I AM ASKING AND HOLDING A G-D FRIGGIN GUN!!!!!!!!!
Plus, this dude is 7ft and 300 lbs, but you STILL want me, a woman who is 63in and 135 lbs, to wait for him to break in???? Good Lord!

Sorry about the caps. I know that's out there and wasn't trying to be rude, but I want that to be clear.

If someone were on your property and refused to leave I would expect you to lock yourself in your house and call the police. If he tries to break in, then you can shoot him.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Soooooo many assumptions are being made by everyone.

 

[charl_huntress]

Except that he didn't hear someone trying to break into his home. Nor was she trying to gain entry. She was looking for help. He heard someone banging loudly on the front door and opened it to see who it was. If he had truly believed she was a burglar, he wouldn't've opened his door to her.

She was there and she was drunk with a .218 alcohol level. She may not have even know why she was there herself.

We weren't there experiencing the situation ourselves, so one of US not being able to "see how she could have acted" holds no weight in the discussion. Also, the "he/she should of done" is a waste of breath as well - they BOTH made a lot of mistakes in this situation, if any number of those had been done differently, we wouldn't be here.

You know who made the first mistake? She did! She got in her car and drove drunk and then crashed into a parked car. Instead of waiting for help, she fled the scene so she wouldn't be arrested. I actually feel more sympathy for the homeowner than I do this broad. He was home at his house minding his business and asleep, then her drunk-driving-crime-scene fleeing ass comes to his doorstep with her ******** and now he's caught in a snare that is all caused by HER!

She'd had help a few hours earlier before she stumbled away from the crash, probably in a blind panic. Later, she went looking for more help. I'm really not sure why you seem to think this excuses her being shot in any way.

If she was in a blind panic then it was because she was afraid of being arrested. Then this drunk girl shows up on this man's property, and in that state I wouldn't doubt she was acting a fool and refusing to leave. He had a right to be afraid of someone in that state (I don't care if it is a damn girl), and if it were me I would have kept my gun on that broad too because she was clearly a fool and likely was acting that way too. He had no idea what she was capable of. However, I would not have had my finger on the trigger, which was probably what he did.

The most irresponsible thing I believe he has done as a gun owner is put his finger on the trigger when he wasn't ready to shot and shot someone accidentally.

I'm not painting her as an angel, either. You don't need to be an angel in order to not deserve getting shot in the face. I'm not saying he's a monster, either. He used his gun irresponsibly and deserves to be punished for it. That's all.

Again, the only irresponsible action that likely occurred is he had his finger on the trigger and pulled inadvertently. I hope the law takes it was accidental into consideration.

I'm not saying he should've reasoned with her. I'm saying that, if he were truly as nervous as he claimed to be, he shouldn't've opened the door to her. He should've attempted to communicate with her through a window, and once it was clear that she wasn't in her right mind he should've called the police.

That's what you would have done and that's fine. But I am a homeowner myself. If I ask you to leave my property then you better go. I shouldn't need the police if you refuse to leave. I should have the right to remove you myself if need be, especially if you are refusing to leave and were not invited in the first place. Now we don't know if that was the case, but it could be. He may have opened the door to tell her ass to go away and she didn't. Who knows? The only real fact is he was on HIS property and she shouldn't have been. If she had stayed with her car and faced the damn music she would be alive today.

If someone were on your property and refused to leave I would expect you to lock yourself in your house and call the police. If he tries to break in, then you can shoot him.

Plueeze...I don't think like you and likely you will never think like me. That is all good. However, I would not give up a tactical advantage of keeping a target that is potentially a threat in my sight to then wait and let him catch me unawares by breaking in while I wait for the cops. You would do that, and that's your choice. I hope you survive if something like happens, but I am not you and I WILL not do that.