Another Person Shot While Looking for Help

[Teelie]

Twist the words all you want, take things out of context. Completely make up ****, it doesn't change the man is a cold-blooded murderer. This was reported in the news, not something I made up. You certainly can't deny he didn't call the cops afterwards. No one said anything about serial killing, some may have declared racial profiling but he is callous to kill someone then fail to call the police.

You've defended his right to kill someone out of fear which amounts to justifying his killing her for no reason. Just kill someone, then claim to be scared seems to be your criteria for justifable homicide.

Yes, you victim-blamed then tried to deflect it as something else. Had she not gone to his house she wouldn't be dead. It's her fault for scaring this man to cause him to shoot her.

I don't know all the facts, neither do you, but it hasn't stopped you from defending his right to kill anyone who knocks on his door. The facts we've seen so far are all pointing to a careless murder and not to any kind of reasonable defense.

 

[Nathan]

It was when I questioned the victim's intentions or motives in this incident that EVERYONE riled up and then I was a victim blamer. Yet, part of the process of determining someone's guilt or innocence in court of law is actually asking those questions because it helps determine each individuals state of mind.

If only that would have been all. No one has an issue with you asking questions. But that's not what you did. You pretty much pointed out everything she did wrong. Blaming her for not being as prepared as you. Blaming her for knocking on someone's door at night. Blaming her for not staying in the car until sun is up, and then look for help. And at the same time, not blaming the homeowner for anything. He might have been scared. He gets a free pass.

 

[charl_huntress]

If only that would have been all. No one has an issue with you asking questions. But that's not what you did. You pretty much pointed out everything she did wrong. Blaming her for not being as prepared as you. Blaming her for knocking on someone's door at night. Blaming her for not staying in the car until sun is up, and then look for help. And at the same time, not blaming the homeowner for anything. He might have been scared. He gets a free pass.

The first thing out of my mouth was why did she get out her car? So every discussion after that pertained to that subject because EVERYONE was offended. I didn't discuss the homeowner because I had to explain to EVERYONE why I thought this was a poor choice and why I wasn't a victim blamer. When someone finally asked me if I thought the guy was at fault too...I SAID YES. So I didn't give him a free pass.

Twist the words all you want, take things out of context. Completely make up ****, it doesn't change the man is a cold-blooded murderer. This was reported in the news, not something I made up. You certainly can't deny he didn't call the cops afterwards. No one said anything about serial killing, some may have declared racial profiling but he is callous to kill someone then fail to call the police.

You've defended his right to kill someone out of fear which amounts to justifying his killing her for no reason. Just kill someone, then claim to be scared seems to be your criteria for justifable homicide.

Yes, you victim-blamed then tried to deflect it as something else. Had she not gone to his house she wouldn't be dead. It's her fault for scaring this man to cause him to shoot her.

I don't know all the facts, neither do you, but it hasn't stopped you from defending his right to kill anyone who knocks on his door. The facts we've seen so far are all pointing to a careless murder and not to any kind of reasonable defense.

I have only read what was reported here. Until I see it then you could be making it up

I did not defend his right to kill someone. I defended his right to be scared, which in your mind equates to the same thing because YOU don't think he had any cause to be afraid and committed the act in cold blood. We could round and round with this and we are.

I don't even know what a victim blamer is, but again for you there is never anytime when the victim of a car crash seeking help IS EVER IN THE WRONG. You have said this repeatedly. It doesn't apply to a drunk driver, a woman high on crack, or even people fleeing a crime because that person seeking help is never in the wrong. The monstrous cold blood homeowner IS 100% to BLAME. Again, we could go round and round because I don't look at things like this. It's not black and white, but if you want to make it that simple then do it.

I don't know all the facts and you don't know all the facts, but who is rushing to judgment here?

 

[redhawk23]

Even if the woman had been driving drunk...that has nothing to do with the fact that the guy opened his door and shot her.

 

[Teelie]

You have a right to be scared, not to shoot someone because you are scared, which you have defended. I never said it was fine to hit someone and run from the scene, I never said it was fine to drink and drive. She was alone, she needed help. She knocked on a door seeking help. She was killed for her literal trouble.

There's nothing more to say. You'll defend his right to kill people knocking on his door "out of fear" until past the point of reason.

 

[Spider-Who?]

avoiding being black? avoid gun owners?

It's a shame that sarcasm is the go to response around here. A shame, but not surprising in the least. It's also not surprising that the sarcasm is based on the automatic assumption that it is the victim who must learn a lesson, because, apparently, anyone who says "hold on, we need all the facts" and is blaming the victim and relinquishing the shooter of all responsibility.

Avoid assuming people will help you instead of shooting you in a time of need?

While I initially took this as another sarcastic response, this sadly is not too far off from the truth of things. People DO need to be mindful of the state of anger, fear and paranoia that is so prevalent these days, as well as the survival instincts (be they just or not) that come into play with those types of conditions. We all need to be aware that situations can be easily misunderstood and that not everyone is a saint so that we can avoid/dispel negative encounters. Conversely, we also need to mindful of the fact that not everyone is out to hurt others and not all situations call for defensive/offensive measures. Sometimes the person on the other side of the door will be an angel, sometimes it will be the devil...it will always be a gamble but we as a people need to understand that our actions greatly affect the nature of the situation. The more people understand this and act accordingly, the less this culture of fear and over-eager defensiveness will thrive.

That's all well and good except instead of calling the police at any point in this time he went back to bed making his attorney's claims sound like a pitiful defense against a man who shot first and didn't bother asking questions or informing anyone later.

Where are you getting that information? This article states that he was on the phone with 911 moments after he shot her and that police were there a few minutes later.

So far nothing has come out in his favor. What reasonable excuse is there to shoot someone who was unarmed in the face then fail to call the police? Or is that just another innocent mistake? That even assumes his claim is accurate...

That article I mentioned also states that he claims the gun went off accidentally, though I don't know of the police's ability to prove/disprove that. It's not out of the realm of possibility - your body tends to clench up when you're scared/startled and if you stupidly have your finger on or near the trigger, you'll unintentionally pull it. But this is why we need to know as much as we can about what happened between her leaving the accident and her death.

...and that for some reason he felt it more important to go back to bed than report an attempted break in and homocide.

Once again, this "shot a girl, then went back to bed without calling the police" notion is wholly inaccurate.

Normally I'd like more facts before making a judgement but in this case no facts that have come out so far have shown this ending in any other way than a callous shooting of an innocent person seeking help.

In this case, I think you should stick with your "more facts before judgement" process, especially since a huge part of the story feeding your reaction is wrong; its why ALL situations need to be met with the search for ALL facts and as little emotional poisoning as possible. No one here seems to care about this necessary search for truth - it literally is "I'm angry about what happened and want this guy hanged. I don't care about the facts!" mentality...its the "shoot first ask questions later" mentality people are ironically damning...it's gross, irresponsible, and only adds to the damage that already exists.

I'm not saying the guy is innocent of killing her - he's not. At all. This shouldn't be a question of IF he is guilty, but WHAT exactly is he guilty of: negligent homicide? manslaughter? 1st degree murder? We can't know if we're going to be willfully ignorant of the facts just so we can quickly satisfy our blood lust.

 

[charl_huntress]

le...sigh...there is a difference between "oh you scared me" and I think "someone is breaking into my home" scared. If you can't see that you will never see reason.

edit:

Spidey-Who thank you for posting that. It was the first detailed article I've read so far.

 

[Nathan]

The first thing out of my mouth was why did she get out her car? So every discussion after that pertained to that subject because EVERYONE was offended. I didn't discuss the homeowner because I had to explain to EVERYONE why I thought this was a poor choice and why I wasn't a victim blamer. When someone finally asked me if I thought the guy was at fault too...I SAID YES. So I didn't give him a free pass.

Are you sure?

I guess I have a different perspective on this. I would not knock on anyone's door that late at night unless I am being chased by a serial killer. It seems safer and more logical to stay inside the locked car and wait for morning. Another thing is since it was 2:30am, I am assuming she wasn't just knocking like a regular knock. Anyone pounding on my door at 2:30am should EXPECT to meet the barrel of a gun.

It's you explaining how you would handle the situation. Not even entertaining the thought that she might possibly be injured after an accident, and really be in the need of help. Or maybe you did, but it's still not good enough for you. A head wound isn't worse than a serial killer after all.

And the bolded part is the reason people have an issue. The first reaction would be to point a gun in someone's face. Apparently you wouldn't keep your door tightly locked either. No, you'd probably throw the door open, ask "WHAT DO YOU WANT?!", spooking the person, forcing him/her to oh so unexpectedly twitch and make a wrong move, then shoot him/her in the face. But it's ok. You were probably too scared to just keep your tightly locked, and just from the either side of the door, ask what the person wants.

 

[Teelie]

Sorry, says he did call, but then hung up. Which is only a little better.

At 4.46am the female dispatcher says: 'Just received a 911 call from a male (who) thinks he just shot someone on his porch. Then he hung up; we're trying to call back.'

Yeah, that's all okay then. He called them to let them know of the body laying on the porch.

Let's keep reading.

Immediately after Ms McBride's death the 54-year-old homeowner apparently claimed he pulled the trigger by accident, but in recent days his lawyer has said he was in fear for his life.

Was it because he feared for his life or did he not mean to pull the trigger? If he feared for his life then why didn't he call the police first? Why did he open the door? If it was accidental, why did he also claim to fear for his life?

On Monday, an autopsy revealed the victim had died from a gunshot wound to the face and the death was ruled as a homicide. The report from the Wayne County Medical Examiner's Office, said there was 'no evidence of close range discharge of a firearm.'

She wasn't that close to him so why pull the trigger? Why even have the gun aimed at her? If he feared for his life and she wasn't that close he could have tried to talk to her or call the police or even fire a warning shot into the ground, not in her face.

But Thurswell does not think that is a valid line of defense in this case. He said: 'She had no weapon. She's five feet four inches tall. He's got a shotgun. He has to show that he's in imminent fear of his life. How's he going to show that?

How indeed.

On the night in question Ms McBride crashed her car into a parked vehicle just before 1am. A neighbor called police and tried to help Ms McBride who was apparently disorientated and bleeding from her head.

So she was not only barely over five feet, unarmed and seeking help, she looks like she was injured and in need of medical help.

Still her fault for not staying with the car? She likely had a concussion if the disorientation is any indication.

But the guy was scared, there's a black bleeding woman on his porch and she looks dangerous despite having no weapons in her hands or anyone with her. Better to shoot her than maybe try to help her.

As Nathan pointed out with your own words, this is also how you greet people who knock on your door at night. With a gun in their face.

 

[charl_huntress]

Are you sure?



It's you explaining how you would handle the situation. Not even entertaining the thought that she might possibly be injured after an accident, and really be in the need of help. Or maybe you did, but it's still not good enough for you. A head wound isn't worse than a serial killer after all.

And the bolded part is the reason people have an issue. The first reaction would be to point a gun in someone's face. Apparently you wouldn't keep your door tightly locked either. No, you'd probably throw the door open, ask "WHAT DO YOU WANT?!", spooking the person, forcing him/her to oh so unexpectedly twitch and make a wrong move, then shoot him/her in the face. But it's ok. You were probably too scared to just keep your tightly locked, and just from the either side of the door, ask what the person wants.

Yep...I said that. I remember because then I had to give a very detailed response of why. But notice I said expect to meet that gun...I didn't say I would shoot her, open my door (unless my dog or someone was hurt), or chase after them with my gun. But I DID say she SHOULD expect to meet my gun if she is "pounding" on my door at 2:20am. That's again why pounding on someone's door at that time of night is not prudent. I'll say that again in case someone has missed the 50 other times I've said it.

Yes, I know the bolded part is why EVERYONE took an issue, which then required detailed explanations about my security, why I think 2:30am is a tricky time to ask for help, why someone waking me up would scare me, why I would even be scared by someone pounding on my door, why I think ANYONE pounding on my door at that hour could be a threat. It's all there so you can go back and read that too if you wish.

In fact, part of my reasons for defending this guy's right to be afraid was because I understood the fear part, and someone pounding on my door that late at night would freak me out too. That's where all the victim blaming and you are defending him all started. No one here can empathize with his fear, but they certainly can empathize with hers. I do empathize with both of them, but because I didn't absolve HER from any responsibility in this matter then I was on the side of the monster. That's how we ended up here today.

 

[Teelie]

why I think 2:30am is a tricky time to ask for help, why someone waking me up would scare me, why I think ANYONE pounding on my door at that hour could be a threat.

Remember kids, having an accident in the evening means having to wait until morning to seek help. And robbers will knock on your door to break in first. But only at night. They never break in during broad daylight.

Yeah, I'm definitely over this.

 

[Nathan]

Yep...I said that. I remember because then I had to give a very detailed response of why. But notice I said expect to meet that gun...I didn't say I would shoot her.

Yes, I know the bolded part is why EVERYONE took an issue, which then required detailed explanations about my security, why I think 2:30am is a tricky time to ask for help, why someone waking me up would scare me, why I think ANYONE pounding on my door at that hour could be a threat. It's all there so you can go back and read that too if you wish.

Oh, I read that. And some, including me, already pointed out how that is not even a remotely relatable scenario. Someone who's going knock on your door will have to work for it. You might have every right to be reasonably worried. But when you're scared, keep the ****ing door shut.

I will never understand how someone who's apparently scared for his life, will go towards the danger, and even open the door. "Oh, someone tries to gain entry to my home through that door? Let's open it, shall we." The only way that make sense, if the guy has the "You came to the wrong neighborhood." mentality and wants to take care of business the old fashioned way. Only it didn't happen to be an intruder, but a short, unarmed and visibly injured woman.

 

[TheBat812]

Yes, he made a mistake, but he was scared. That would make it more likely to make a mistake because you're not thinking clearly. Again, I'm not absolving him of that mistake, but I am trying to find why he made his choice in the first place and to me barring this was a psycho standing his ground or cold-blooded case of murder then I WILLING to give him the benefit of the damn doubt that was not his intent. Jeeze people...I can't see why that offends you, or that you simply can't get that. It boggles my mind.

Ok, maybe that's the reason behind his actions. I'm not saying that he's an evil man who killed her in cold blood (that is still yet to be determined, although it's certainly a possibility. Not calling the cops was a huge mistake), I'm just saying he's clearly guilty of manslaughter and killing her with no lawful justification.

 

[charl_huntress]

Yeah, I'm definitely over this.

Good...I am glad.

Oh, I read that. And some, including me, already pointed out how that is not even a remotely relatable scenario. Someone who's going knock on your door will have to work for it. You might have every right to be reasonably worried. But when you're scared, keep the ****ing door shut.

I will never understand how someone who's apparently scared for his life, will go towards the danger, and even open the door. "Oh, someone tries to gain entry to my home through that door? Let's open it, shall we." The only way that make sense, if the guy has the "You came to the wrong neighborhood." mentality and wants to take care of business the old fashioned way. Only it didn't happen to be an intruder, but a short, unarmed and visibly injured woman.

Right, we established my scenario was different, but I thought we also established he did have the right to be afraid. You said this earlier, do I need to find it? What we disagree on (I think) is his response that fear by getting his gun and then opening his door. Why did he open the door? Who in the hell knows why he did that? If we can agree that when people are scared then it's possible for them to make poor choices, then I hope we can agree that in this may be been a poor choice he made while in the grip of fear.

But you know since this whole convo started we were all under the impression he didn't call the cops. Only we find out today that HE DID call the cops, so I'm sure we'll find out about the door too.

Ok, maybe that's the reason behind his actions. I'm not saying that he's an evil man who killed her in cold blood (that is still yet to be determined, although it's certainly a possibility. Not calling the cops was a huge mistake), I'm just saying he's clearly guilty of manslaughter and killing her with no lawful justification.

No lawful justification? I'm sure we'll find out. I don't want to say either way, but he DID call the cops. Spidey-Who posted an article and it says he called minutes after it happened. I am glad to hear you say he's not a cold blooded murder. I just don't that even with what little we do know.

 

[Hotwire]

Where are you getting that information? This article states that he was on the phone with 911 moments after he shot her and that police were there a few minutes later.

That does change things. He's no less responsible but, it at least shows he had some compassion and guilt. (This goes back to what I'd said earlier about people react to actions that make them feel guilty.) Now, I'm more inclined to believe the accident angle. However, I still refuse to accept that someone scared for their life would even open the door in the first place. No matter what charl says.

 

[charl_huntress]

In this case, I think you should stick with your "more facts before judgement" process, especially since a huge part of the story feeding your reaction is wrong; its why ALL situations need to be met with the search for ALL facts and as little emotional poisoning as possible. No one here seems to care about this necessary search for truth - it literally is "I'm angry about what happened and want this guy hanged. I don't care about the facts!" mentality...its the "shoot first ask questions later" mentality people are ironically damning...it's gross, irresponsible, and only adds to the damage that already exists.

I'm not saying the guy is innocent of killing her - he's not. At all. This shouldn't be a question of IF he is guilty, but WHAT exactly is he guilty of: negligent homicide? manslaughter? 1st degree murder? We can't know if we're going to be willfully ignorant of the facts just so we can quickly satisfy our blood lust.

 

[Nathan]

It better get revealed that he tried to do more before even attempted to open the door. When you think there's someone out there, you don't go for the door first. You get loud so the person who is trying to intrude knows someone is home. You yell, scream, ****ing curse. You let the person know you're armed, you don't have to be nice about it. But you don't open the door, when you think someone tries to gain access through it. Yes, sometimes you do stupid **** when you're scared, like driving off after an car accident. It's a reflex, you try to get distance between you and some horrible scenario. But to go for the door when your scared, thinking someone tries to get into your home, that's just plain illogical.

 

[charl_huntress]

That's what you would do, Nathan, it's not what everyone would do. Please believe...

The time that person tried to break in my house, and this was when I lived at a place with no real security like I have now (just clarify because not having security made it worse, which is why I am very particular about it now). I had five thoughts I can remember clearly to this day!

1. WTF is that noise????
2. Is that what the **** I think it is?????!!!!!
3. OMG ****ing GOD it is!!!!!
4. I have to defend myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5. Where is a weapon????!!!!!!

That fear put me at a stress level where after that I might have dived out the window. I am assuming that my thought after that was I need assistance, but I didn't call the police. I called my UNCLE.

So I'm saying his choice was illogical. It was a bad choice, but it's possible he made it in fear. The reason why saying recognizing this fear is important is it separates cold-blood murder to accidental homicide (manslaughter). Yet, if you point that out then you're on the side of the monster and defending his right to kill...crazy stuff.

 

[Slushy]

Remind me not to ask strangers for help...

This.

 

[Teelie]

That's what you would do, Nathan, it's not what everyone would do. Please believe...

The time that person tried to break in my house, and this was when I lived at a place with no real security like I have now (just clarify because not having security made it worse, which is why I am very particular about it now). I had five thoughts I can remember clearly to this day!

1. WTF is that noise????
2. Is that what the **** I think it is?????!!!!!
3. OMG ****ing GOD it is!!!!!
4. I have to defend myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5. Where is a weapon????!!!!!!

That fear put me at a stress level where after that I might have dived out the window. I am assuming that my thought after that was I need assistance, but I didn't call the police. I called my UNCLE.

That puts it all into perspective now why you're so defensive.

 

[charl_huntress]

So what's your excuse?

edit: you know I said that and then thought well I don't even really know what he means. Are you talking defensive in a bad way, or like I like my security? I think I know which one you're talking about, so you should probably answer my question since I have no idea why you are like you are.

 

[Nathan]

That's what you would do, Nathan, it's not what everyone would do. Please believe...

The time that person tried to break in my house, and this was when I lived at a place with no real security like I have now (just clarify because not having security made it worse, which is why I am very particular about it now). I had five thoughts I can remember clearly to this day!

1. WTF is that noise????
2. Is that what the **** I think it is?????!!!!!
3. OMG ****ing GOD it is!!!!!
4. I have to defend myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5. Where is a weapon????!!!!!!

That fear put me at a stress level where after that I might have dived out the window. I am assuming that my thought after that was I need assistance, but I didn't call the police. I called my UNCLE.

And yet, in your panicked state, you still had the present of mind, to think of gaining distance between you and the danger. Though the window dive would have been stupid, it would have been understandable. At least you didn't think of running through the front door, right into the arms of the intruder. And you might not have called the Police, but at least you called someone. And how old were you again? Pretty young, right? In this case though, we deal with a grown man, who owns a gun that can quickly take care of any intruder. He should at least have felt safer than you.

So I'm saying his choice was illogical. It was a bad choice, but it's possible he made it in fear. The reason why saying recognizing this fear is important is it separates cold-blood murder to accidental homicide (manslaughter). Yet, if you point that out then you're on the side of the monster and defending his right to kill...crazy stuff.

Well, it certainly didn't help how you entered the discussion. If you hadn't started to talk about how you would have handled a car crash, saying to stay in the car, when you don't even know if the person was injured, and then say "Knock on my door, expect the barrel of my gun.", the discussion wouldn't have went on as long as it did, and we wouldn't even be talking right now.

 

[Hotwire]

That's what you would do, Nathan, it's not what everyone would do. Please believe...

The time that person tried to break in my house, and this was when I lived at a place with no real security like I have now (just clarify because not having security made it worse, which is why I am very particular about it now). I had five thoughts I can remember clearly to this day!

1. WTF is that noise????
2. Is that what the **** I think it is?????!!!!!
3. OMG ****ing GOD it is!!!!!
4. I have to defend myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5. Where is a weapon????!!!!!!

That fear put me at a stress level where after that I might have dived out the window. I am assuming that my thought after that was I need assistance, but I didn't call the police. I called my UNCLE.

So I'm saying his choice was illogical. It was a bad choice, but it's possible he made it in fear. The reason why saying recognizing this fear is important is it separates cold-blood murder to accidental homicide (manslaughter). Yet, if you point that out then you're on the side of the monster and defending his right to kill...crazy stuff.

She has me on ignore put, I'd like to point out that Open the door is NOT on her list!! Just saying.

 

[TheBat812]

She has me on ignore put, I'd like to point out that Open the door is NOT on her list!! Just saying.

Ya, I don't understand why on earth he would open the door unless he had decided she wasn't a threat or he wanted to scare her off. I can certainly see a scenario where he opened the door to help and accidentally shot her because he sucks with a gun, I guess the trajectory of the shot will help determine that.

 

[charl_huntress]

And yet, in your panicked state, you still had the present of mind, to think of gaining distance between you and the danger. Though the window dive would have been stupid, it would have been understandable. At least you didn't think of running through the front door, right into the arms of the intruder. And you might not have called the Police, but at least you called someone. And how old were you again? Pretty young, right? In this case though, we deal with a grown man, who owns a gun that can quickly take care of any intruder. He should at least have felt safer than you.

I was young (14), but fear is fear. If you're in the grip of it can be like your mind goes blank. That's what happened to me. I don't remember ANYTHING after thinking I needed a weapon. I could have gone out the door. I was just...in a panicked state. The crazy part about that whole scenario is I didn't even think about the things my father told me to do...which is what you said to do. Turn on the lights, which were off. Turn up the TV, which was low. I didn't do that because I was just scared ****less and I could have done anything at that point. Though this dude is grown, I'll give anyone the benefit of the doubt if their gripped with fear, and add in the fact he was wakened by this noise and he may not have been able to process what he was doing rationally.

Now, I will say all gun owners have to be responsible for their actions because it is life or death. It's not a game. There no takes back. The best advice my father EVER gave me, and he drilled this into me as soon as I could identify a gun. Exact words. "If you pull this on someone YOU MUST be ready to die." So when I think of picking up my gun, I don't think of killing anyone. I myself have to be ready to die. That makes you a lot more cautious to pull.

Well, it certainly didn't help how you entered the discussion. If you hadn't started to talk about how you would have handled a car crash, saying to stay in the car, when you don't even know if the person was injured, and then say "Knock on my door, expect the barrel of my gun.", the discussion wouldn't have went on as long as it did, and we wouldn't even be talking right now.

lol....idk if that's a good thing or a bad thing. My speech can be very direct. I am prior military. I am just straight to the point....most time. I of course can ramble with the best...lol