Are DC films held to a different, higher standard?

Yeah....you got me....I don't think much of Superman.

Saw the Chris Reeve movies around a dozen times each at the theater because I didn't think much of Superman.....watched them a hundred more times on VHS tape and DVD because I don't think much of Superman....drove 3 hours one way to attend the SUPERMAN FESTIVAL in Metropolis Illinois for 10 years straight because I don't think much of Superman.....have pictures and memorabilia of me with the stars of the SUPERMAN movies and TV shows all over my house because I don't think much of Superman.

I recently started to make a list of the superhero DVDs I own, so this may not be complete (none of all my Justice League DVDs are on the list), but here is what I have wrote down that I own so far...
Superman (serial) (1948)
Atom Man vs. Superman (serial) (1950)
Superman the Movie (1978)
Superman II (1980)
Superman II the Donner Cut (1980/2006)
Superman III (1983)
Superman IV (1987)
Superman Returns (2006)
Man Of Steel (2013)
Supergirl (1984)
Superman Doomsday (animated) (2007)
Superman Batman Public Enemies (animated) (2009)
Superman/Batman Apocalypse (animated) (2010)
Superman/Shazam the Return of Black Adam (animated) (2010)
Superman Unbound (animated) (2013)
Superman vs the Elite (animated) (2012)
All Star Superman (animated) (2011)
Superman Fleisher cartoons (animated) (1940's)
Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman (series) (4 seasons) (1993)
Smallville (series) (10 seasons) (2001)

But yeah....I don't think much of Superman.

Yeah, I guess not. Because, despite being a clear fan of the character, you still seem to believe that his ability to fly trumps all other aspects of the character. That he's not Superman if he doesn't fly. He doesn't fly in your Fleischer cartoons, for example.
 
I listened to that interview, too, and Gough was only speaking about what he knew about Welling during the time that he worked with him on the show. Gough and Millar left the show at the end of Season 7. They were not involved in the production of the show at all, including the series finale.

It still proves Welling was reluctant but as I said they were never going to make a suit for one episod anyway so it doesn't really matter.

Although he did say the series finale went pretty much as they would have done it.
 
Yeah, I guess not. Because, despite being a clear fan of the character, you still seem to believe that his ability to fly trumps all other aspects of the character. That he's not Superman if he doesn't fly. He doesn't fly in your Fleischer cartoons, for example.

He does just not in the first episodes.
 
All of those took the leaping Superman into flying eventually though and in Morrisons case that was the plan all along. Everyone expects him to fly, if he didn't people would ask why he wasn't flying. Infact I believe it was the Fleischer show that started him flying because it was easier to animate.

That doesn't change the fact that people still liked and enjoyed the flightless Superman stories. In fact, as I have said several times already, the fans of New 52 Superman ultimately preferred the flightless Superman of Morrison's Action Comics to the flying Superman who wore the traditional costume in later issues. The non-flying Superman Morrison introduced was a fan favorite rather than the flying Superman who came later.

It's not the same as Smallville where the whole premise is a prequel and he even flew in that several times (including floating above his bed in episode 2). In a two hour film you can't do that, if it's an origin you could get away with that in the first hour but not for an entire film.

It's not the same because the storytelling worked so well that fans preferred the flightless Superman to the flying one that he became later on in the continuity. It's not eating vegetables to get to dessert. Fans had access to vegetables and dessert, and they ultimately agreed that the vegetables were better than the dessert. The vegetables were the dessert, in fact. They liked the flightless Superman more.
 
Look, I understand that iconic characters and stories are subject to more limitations that lesser known characters and stories, but I don't think that is necessarily a valid foundation for film criticism. A film and its characters should be judged on its merits. That isn't to say that a film cannot fail because it messed with the wrong iconic elements or poorly handled their deconstruction, but a knee jerk rejection of a story because it failed to conform to a particular pop culture expectation doesn't seem like a good idea.

I think a good adaptation that experiments with iconic elements knows how push audiences and challenge them; a film like that uses the established expectation to enrich the story by testing the principle of that element. For example, Man of Steel and the DCEU have completely rejected any element of the iconic triangle-for-two. The DCEU's Lois never knew the bespectacled Clark Kent, and neither Lois nor Clark had to concern themselves with being caught between that dual identity. Lois was there before there was a Superman, and she never knew Superman without knowing he was Clark Kent. This is a deviation that seems to have worked for most people.

When it comes to values, I think as long as a story does not endorse a deviation from the core values, then that deviation is fair game. If Batman abandons his no kill code, for example, then all that matters is that the story treats this deviation as a deviation that cannot stand. A redemption arc, in other words, reinforces the core value. If Superman kills, then show why it is okay that he kills. In this case, show that he had to kill Zod or else an innocent family would have died. Make it clear that Superman could not see any other way, and that it broke his heart that there was no other way.

I'm actually in agreement with you that the films need to be judge on their own merits. But if you try to do something new with an already established character your execution needs to be done well and your change needs to be justifiable. If neither of those elements are there then you will no only be called out for bad film making, the noise will be amplified because of the character you're dealing with. If the change doesn't feel justified people will naturally point to previous incarnations of the characters as proof you 'don't get it'. Look at what Nolan did. He brought Batman back in a way we hadn't really seen before and executed it really well, all of a suddenly the Burton films were a distant memory. The audience moved on because Nolan gave them a reason to. Snyder didn't do that.
 
Yeah, I guess not. Because, despite being a clear fan of the character, you still seem to believe that his ability to fly trumps all other aspects of the character. That he's not Superman if he doesn't fly. He doesn't fly in your Fleischer cartoons, for example.

I'm glad to know that you have been appointed THE BESTOWER OF WHO IS AND WHO IS NOT A SUPERMAN FAN.....we have no need to ever talk again.
 
That doesn't change the fact that people still liked and enjoyed the flightless Superman stories. In fact, as I have said several times already, the fans of New 52 Superman ultimately preferred the flightless Superman of Morrison's Action Comics to the flying Superman who wore the traditional costume in later issues. The non-flying Superman Morrison introduced was a fan favorite rather than the flying Superman who came later.
But it's no longer what's associated with the character flight is, the audience expects him to fly. You do know the comic audience makes up a small percentage of people who watch these films don't you?

You say fans of the new 52 aswell but it was that popular it's already been rebooted back to the Superman before the New 52 so it wasn't that popular.


It's not the same because the storytelling worked so well that fans preferred the flightless Superman to the flying one that he became later on in the continuity. It's not eating vegetables to get to dessert. Fans had access to vegetables and dessert, and they ultimately agreed that the vegetables were better than the dessert. The vegetables were the dessert, in fact. They liked the flightless Superman more.

That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read in my life. I loved Smallville but let's not act like it was immensely popular to the point people started to prefer that version to fully fledged Superman. Smallville had a fan base but that wouldn't even make up a big percentage of those that would go see a cinematic version. In any case when Smallville was airing every week I was in the forums and even those that loves it were desperate for Clark to put the suit on and start flying. Infact many fans who love the show always complained that he wasn't flying. Especially when Kara was flying regularly on the show yet Clark couldn't.
 
I'm actually in agreement with you that the films need to be judge on their own merits. But if you try to do something new with an already established character your execution needs to be done well and your change needs to be justifiable. If neither of those elements are there then you will no only be called out for bad film making, the noise will be amplified because of the character you're dealing with. If the change doesn't feel justified people will naturally point to previous incarnations of the characters as proof you 'don't get it'. Look at what Nolan did. He brought Batman back in a way we hadn't really seen before and executed it really well, all of a suddenly the Burton films were a distant memory. The audience moved on because Nolan gave them a reason to. Snyder didn't do that.

Then we agree that it all just comes back to storytelling within a particular work itself. However, whether something does or does not work is subjective. You can say "Snyder didn't do that" (he didn't tell a good enough story to justify his changes, in your opinion) but that doesn't make it a fact. It's your truth, and maybe others agree with you, but it's not the truth. Some like the changes the DCEU made and can explain why and can explain why they believe the filmmaking wasn't bad and that the decisions were justifiable. It's not a given that, for example, Jesse Eisenberg's Lex is bad because he's not like other Lex Luthors or Henry Cavill's Superman isn't as good as his predecessors' because he doesn't smile as much. And, despite how "natural" it might be to point to previous incarnations, it's not exactly sound to prove that a certain take was bad storytelling or unjustified by pointing to other versions. It has to be poor within the context of the film itself.
 
Are people really debating on Flight being one of Supermans defining abilities? Come on. It's like having the Flash and not having him have superseded. When people ask me what Supermans powers are, the first that comes to mind if that he can fly.
 
Yeah, I guess not. Because, despite being a clear fan of the charactedr, you still seem to believe that his ability to fly trumps all other aspects of the character. That he's not Superman if he doesn't fly. He doesn't fly in your Fleischer cartoons, for example.

Of course he did. Superman first flew in the Fleischer cartoons.

I get that you are super stoked for a Superman In Name Only film in which a mild mannered reporter shows off his crazy vertical clad in a pair of Dockers. But you're not going to find a lot of supporters on these boards. Remember, posters on the Hype helped to crush FFINO in the womb.
 
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Are people really debating on Flight being one of Supermans defining abilities? Come on. It's like having the Flash and not having him have superseded. When people ask me what Supermans powers are, the first that comes to mind if that he can fly.

:up:

Of course he did. Superman first flew in the Fleischer cartoons.

I get that you are super stoked for a Superman In Name Only film in which the Man of Steel jumps really high clad in a pair of Dockers. But you're not going to find a lot of supporters on these boards. Remember, posters on these boards crushed FFINO in the womb.

:lmao:
 
But it's no longer what's associated with the character flight is, the audience expects him to fly. You do know the comic audience makes up a small percentage of people who watch these films don't you?

That expectation existed before the New 52, yet it was popular with the New 52.

You say fans of the new 52 aswell but it was that popular it's already been rebooted back to the Superman before the New 52 so it wasn't that popular.

It was rebooted because the flightless Superman--the popular one--was rarely used because the temptation was to return to the familiar, and it was rebooted because whether he flew or not didn't ultimately make the stories any better, which is just further proof that flight isn't the be all, end all of Superman stories and their quality and popularity with audiences. Other factors are more important, and so much so that one can play with whether Superman can fly and it can actually be something people enjoy.

That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read in my life. I loved Smallville but let's not act like it was immensely popular to the point people started to prefer that version to fully fledged Superman. Smallville had a fan base but that wouldn't even make up a big percentage of those that would go see a cinematic version. In any case when Smallville was airing every week I was in the forums and even those that loves it were desperate for Clark to put the suit on and start flying. Infact many fans who love the show always complained that he wasn't flying. Especially when Kara was flying regularly on the show yet Clark couldn't.

Why are commenting about Smallville when the comment of mine you quoted to make this response was me talking about New 52 comics?
 
If you love the none flying Superman that's fair enough. Heck I even loved that Morrison arc however don't make stuff up to fit with what you want. Cause people expect Superman to fly and if people go to the cinema and he doesn't fly they will think "what's the deal?". The leaping aspect of Superman is mostly known to comic fans not outside those circles. As I said we make up a small percentage of the audience for a big screen version aswell so if he leaped for 2 hours and didn't fly people would be pissed.

Also you talk about the familiar that new 52 Superman failed because the readers couldn't get on board with his characterisation it had nothing to do with putting him in a costume and making him fly. It wasn't even familiar either cause they changed aspects that people loved from pre New 52, one being the costume.
 
Are people really debating on Flight being one of Supermans defining abilities? Come on. It's like having the Flash and not having him have superseded. When people ask me what Supermans powers are, the first that comes to mind if that he can fly.

Not the same thing. Flash couldn't be the Flash without superspeed. It's all he is. Superman has so much else that is special about him that flight doesn't define him the same way superspeed defines the Flash. The fact that there are versions of Superman that didn't fly, and that he started that way, is a good indicator of this.

Of course he did. Superman first flew in the Fleischer cartoons.

I get that you are super stoked for a Superman In Name Only film in which a mild mannered reporter shows off his crazy vertical clad in a pair of Dockers. But you're not going to find a lot of supporters on these boards. Remember, posters on the Hype helped to crush FFINO in the womb.

He did fly eventually, but he didn't start out flying. In other words, flight could exist or not exist on the show and in other takes of the character and it didn't change how valid or beloved something was. Please refrain from strawman arguments that put words in my mouth. To me, Superman can, and has been, Superman without his ability to fly. He is much more than that to me. He is an alien from a doomed planet raised by human who uses his powers, whatever they are, to help his adopted planet. He fights for truth and justice, and is a symbol of hope to people. If a Superman story lacked those things or didn't tell a story about Superman on a journey to becoming those tings, then I wouldn't be excited for it or defend it.
 
I don't think misslane's opinion is that radical. I think you could pull off a Superman film where he doesn't fly for most of it or just wears jeans, a cape, and a Blue T Shirt with the S Shield on it.

You just need to be skilled enough to make that intriguing, and you can build to a climax or ending where he gets the iconic suit and flight.
 
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If Superman doesn't fly, what's the point? "It's a bird.. it's a plane... it's Superman!" right? Flight, along with super speed and super strength, are his core abilities.
 
Then we agree that it all just comes back to storytelling within a particular work itself. However, whether something does or does not work is subjective. You can say "Snyder didn't do that" (he didn't tell a good enough story to justify his changes, in your opinion) but that doesn't make it a fact. It's your truth, and maybe others agree with you, but it's not the truth. Some like the changes the DCEU made and can explain why and can explain why they believe the filmmaking wasn't bad and that the decisions were justifiable. It's not a given that, for example, Jesse Eisenberg's Lex is bad because he's not like other Lex Luthors or Henry Cavill's Superman isn't as good as his predecessors' because he doesn't smile as much. And, despite how "natural" it might be to point to previous incarnations, it's not exactly sound to prove that a certain take was bad storytelling or unjustified by pointing to other versions. It has to be poor within the context of the film itself.

I think there's an argument to be made that if you remove the names and costumes more people would say this film fails at a fundamental level.
 
I think there's an argument to be made that if you remove the names and costumes more people would say this film fails at a fundamental level.

Especially the theatrical cut, which was clearly hacked to pieces in the editing room. But even though I haven't seen the ultimate edition, I suspect it still suffers from the overall dreariness and needlessly convoluted and nonsensical plot (shades of True Detective season 2) that dogged the TC.
 
I think there's an argument to be made that if you remove the names and costumes more people would say this film fails at a fundamental level.

I think that argument has been made many times, and convincingly. Hell, I think Hancock was a better Superman movie than Man of Steel (so was The Matrix), and it wasn't even that good.
 
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I don't think misslane's opinion is that radical. I think you could pull off a Superman film where he doesn't fly for most of it or just wears jeans, a cape, and a Blue T Shirt with the S Shield on it.

You just need to be skilled enough to make that intriguing, and you can build to a climax or ending where he gets the iconic suit and flight.

I think you could make it work for like an hour of the story. The reason it either in the Mortison arc was that it lead to him getting his costume, finding out where he came from, discovering ge can fly etc. It was an origin story essentially, that's the only way I think it would work in a film.
 
Are people really debating on Flight being one of Supermans defining abilities? Come on. It's like having the Flash and not having him have superseded. When people ask me what Supermans powers are, the first that comes to mind if that he can fly.

Yes...that is being debated.
 
I think there's an argument to be made that if you remove the names and costumes more people would say this film fails at a fundamental level.

Some fans get overly sensitive as it implies that they go out of their way to ignore the flaws of the film because their favorite superheroes are in it.

And yunno what? That's fine by me if these movies satisfy the basic need to see their beloved DC characters regardless of plot. But I'd be lying if I didn't say that the whole spectacle of WB/DC behind the scenes have been MORE entertaining than the movies they delivered.
 
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Then we agree that it all just comes back to storytelling within a particular work itself. However, whether something does or does not work is subjective. You can say "Snyder didn't do that" (he didn't tell a good enough story to justify his changes, in your opinion) but that doesn't make it a fact. It's your truth, and maybe others agree with you, but it's not the truth. Some like the changes the DCEU made and can explain why and can explain why they believe the filmmaking wasn't bad and that the decisions were justifiable. It's not a given that, for example, Jesse Eisenberg's Lex is bad because he's not like other Lex Luthors or Henry Cavill's Superman isn't as good as his predecessors' because he doesn't smile as much. And, despite how "natural" it might be to point to previous incarnations, it's not exactly sound to prove that a certain take was bad storytelling or unjustified by pointing to other versions. It has to be poor within the context of the film itself.

While that's all true, I confess, I'm not entirely sure what the ultimate point of the argument is.

All art is subjective, which is why people are gonna have opinions on it. So while you can say "It's not a fact that the movie was poorly written or that Eisenberg's performance as Lex was laughable," I don't think anyone here was saying those are indisputable facts.

Are people supposed to end every single statement about the quality of a film with "But, like, that's just my opinion, bro" now to avoid offending people who liked it (or vice versa)?
 
For superman, flying and (to a greater extent) the suit are 2 essential things but they're not the ONLY things IMO.
Snyder's superman had the perfect actor in cavill, a beautiful rendition of the superman suit and some spectacular flying effects but he didn't feel remotely like superman to me while morrison's non flying, jeans and t-shirt superman did. Also some stories like superman advntures #18 or the STAS episode 'the late Mr Kent' are all great superman stories even though the tights and flights were the least important parts of the story (although they were present).
So to cut a long story short, I think superman can be done without the suit or the flying (if the creators write him in a respectful and an interesting way) but I still recommend that these essential aspects are included to complete the picture and hit the bulls eye.
 
Was there anything wrong with the Superman character that he had to be redefined for the GA? I get that comic book fans wanted a grittier storyline, maybe a more worthy villain to fistfight with or challenge him in a way Lex Luthor couldn't, but what about Superman himself?
 

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